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Roland doesn't say anything about the sound differences between the older and the newer. The bigger VR-730 seems a clear upgrade concerning the keys but employs a huge box for that...

Thanks!

http://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/TwxBdKABasEGuufK4dJH5C.jpg

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Conclusion (so far):

- By ver. 1.03, VR-09 System Program got 25 more sounds.

- By VR-730 (only), the System Program got 23 more sounds.

This question remains:

- These new sounds are only new programs developed upon the same wavetable or they employ new samples stored via firmware update?

PS: I assume that the old ones (even in 730) can't sound better (especially the AP's) if they have the same names...

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Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
Conclusion (so far):

- By ver. 1.03, VR-09 System Program got 25 more sounds.

- By VR-730 (only), the System Program got 23 more sounds.

This question remains:

- These new sounds are only new programs developed upon the same wavetable or they employ new samples stored via firmware update?

PS: I assume that the old ones (even in 730) can't sound better (especially the AP's) if they have the same names...


Anyone??

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May be the VR-09B is some form of a refresh (or rehash) rather than a clear-cut upgrade to the first version...with additional sounds (tones) as you've noted in your original post above.

I did notice that the EFX knobs of the new VR-09B look different from the previous VR-09.

That being said, the VR-730 seem to fit more the term "upgrade" when compared to the VR-09B. The front panel interface looks to be the same for both the VR-09B and VR-730.


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As far as I've seen, the only differences between the VR09 and VR09B are aesthetic/cosmetic... color of knobs, typography, etc. All the sounds and operation seems identical, once you load the newest software update into the old one. Does anyone have reason to think differently?

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Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
Conclusion (so far):

- By ver. 1.03, VR-09 System Program got 25 more sounds.

- By VR-730 (only), the System Program got 23 more sounds.

This question remains:

- These new sounds are only new programs developed upon the same wavetable or they employ new samples stored via firmware update?

PS: I assume that the old ones (even in 730) can't sound better (especially the AP's) if they have the same names...


Anyone??


Nobody knows, I guess...

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Sonicblasphemy,
Yes nobody here seems to know for sure at this point. It is brand new, and Roland has done a terrible job highlighting the differences with the older model. Or perhaps there really are no significant differences to highlight. You might try Roland's customer service and asking them. Otherwise we will have to wait until they are out in the wild and people have a chance to get hands on.


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@fizikisto

Thanks for your reply...

... Though, the previous upgrade may comply. In other words, it may be enough that some VR-09 A owners with any interest/expertise, to share their thoughts in this matter, regarding initial factory sounds vs. ver. 1.03. Mainly, the same rules should apply, right?

Or, let me put it this way:

- Can the wavetable of a synth like this be updated via firmware, as long as the physical storage capacity is limited to the initial information from the factory?

PS: I forgot to share the links to the official sound lists and update history, leading to my conclusion:

https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/VR-09_PA.pdf

https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/VR-09_VR-730_Datalist_eng01_W.pdf

https://www.roland.com/us/support/b...rs/b653f135-3309-405e-b0fa-96502987fcbc/

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Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
The bigger VR-730 seems a clear upgrade concerning the keys but employs a huge box for that...

Yes, they expanded the space between the back of the keys and the control panel, making the whole board deeper. That's probably good news, because one of the worst things about the VR-09 is that the short fulcrum makes it hard to play on the rear section of the keys. The VR-730 probably has much deeper keys with that fulcrum further back (necessitating that extra clearance in front of the control panel), so the keys should play much more evenly from front to back.

Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
Can the wavetable of a synth like this be updated via firmware, as long as the physical storage capacity is limited to the initial information from the factory?

I doubt anyone here knows for sure. Maybe forum member Jay who used to work for Roland. But it's kind of academic. That is, even knowing it's possible wouldn't mean that there would ever be new sounds made available, and if no more sounds are made available, whether the capacity is there or not is kind of moot. I *suspect* that there is little-to-no available rewritable space for new samples, since (a) rewritable space is more expensive, and wouldn't generally be designed in in any great amount without the company touting it or making use if it, and (b) the new update gives the 09 all the same new features as the 730, but not the 730's extra sounds.

Interestingly, there are apparently some "hidden" sounds already in the board, so it's not impossible that even the waves for the EP sounds "added" in the 1.03 update were actually already in the board, and the new software simply made them readily available. Or perhaps there was indeed a small amount of writable memory, which they used for the 1.03 sample set. Or they repurposed some of the samples that were being used for other stock sounds. Or some combination of all of the above. But Roland has not publicized that information, so there's really no way for users like us to know. (The reason I mentioned the EP sounds of the 1.03 update specifically and not also the added synth sounds is that, with the SuperNatural synth, new sounds don't need new samples.)

As for the hidden sounds, which you can access only via MIDI commands, check the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFD8hg8yWpQ

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Thanks for replying...

Originally Posted by anotherscott
The VR-730 probably has much deeper keys with that fulcrum further back (necessitating that extra clearance in front of the control panel), so the keys should play much more evenly from front to back.


I belive that Roland really listened their customer's voices by resizing this board's keybed (730 option) but I personally don't think it needed all that space. It's all about design style IMO and nord is my proof for that. Those longer keys (if they really are) can easily go beneath the control panel...

Originally Posted by anotherscott
I doubt anyone here knows for sure. Maybe forum member Jay who used to work for Roland. But it's kind of academic. That is, even knowing it's possible wouldn't mean that there would ever be new sounds made available, and if no more sounds are made available, whether the capacity is there or not is kind of moot. I *suspect* that there is little-to-no available rewritable space for new samples, since (a) rewritable space is more expensive, and wouldn't generally be designed in in any great amount without the company touting it or making use if it, and (b) the new update gives the 09 all the same new features as the 730, but not the 730's extra sounds.

Interestingly, there are apparently some "hidden" sounds already in the board, so it's not impossible that even the waves for the EP sounds "added" in the 1.03 update were actually already in the board, and the new software simply made them readily available. Or perhaps there was indeed a small amount of writable memory, which they used for the 1.03 sample set. Or they repurposed some of the samples that were being used for other stock sounds. Or some combination of all of the above. But Roland has not publicized that information, so there's really no way for users like us to know. (The reason I mentioned the EP sounds of the 1.03 update specifically and not also the added synth sounds is that, with the SuperNatural synth, new sounds don't need new samples.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kaREpnBlPA

This guy is very popular reviewing japanese gear (only) at their home and I'm sure he's receiving some inside info along the boards when testing (promoting). If you activate the english caption, you will notice somewhere in the beginning of this video, the words: "they updated the thing, down to the waveforms level even,".

So, if there are new samples, (a) they probably left some free memory space to write on, (b) or the waves are there hidden, ready to be unlocked via software/firmware update right?

May I also dare to suspect some kind of new lossless compression algorithm (like nord's), allowing them to store more waves in the same memory?

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Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
I belive that Roland really listened their customer's voices by resizing this board's keybed (730 option) but I personally don't think it needed all that space. It's all about design style IMO and nord is my proof for that. Those longer keys (if they really are) can easily go beneath the control panel...

You can't assume that Roland's key design has the same dimensional requirements as the Fatar keys used by Nord. Just as with keys on digital pianos, there are numerous different semi-weighted designs, requiring different depths and clearances. (FWIW, the keys in the Roland VR700 feel better than Nord's, hopefully that's what's in the VR730.)

Whether it's because of the design of the keys or some other reason, it is unlikely that Roland made the chassis any bigger than it needed to be (whether for some mechanical reason or some cost reason). Typically, for a manufacturer, a bigger chassis costs more to manufacture, warehouse, and ship. To a customer, a bigger chassis means it's heavier to carry around and takes up more stage space. There's no evidence that people prefer to buy the "style" of a bigger board. To the contrary, it is common to see people talk about how great it is when boards are small and light (at least up to a point), and to see people complain when something seems unnecessarily big (as you yourself are doing!).

Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
If you activate the english caption, you will notice somewhere in the beginning of this video, the words: "they updated the thing, down to the waveforms level even,".

So, if there are new samples, (a) they probably left some free memory space to write on, (b) or the waves are there hidden , ready to be unlocked via software/firmware update right?

I would say yes. And more authoritatively than that video, Roland themselves say about the 1.03 upgrade that "the new electric piano sounds include waveforms taken from the highly regarded SRX-12 Classic EP expansion board, the original VR-760 combo and the current RD-800 stage piano." (see http://www.roland.co.uk/blog/vr-09-version-1-03-update-now-available/ ) - so yes, for them to put it that way, it sounds like the new EPs use different waveforms from what the other EP sounds used. So either there was some available rewritable space, or there were other waveforms in there that they had not yet used in the factory program set. Again, though, this is a very academic discussion, as it doesn't really matter which of those is the case, the result is the same.

Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
May I also dare to suspect some kind of new lossless compression algorithm (like nord's), allowing them to store more waves in the same memory?

Unlikely, as that would mean RE-writing the data that was already there. The update file presumably would have been larger, and it would also have meant that they put the entire sound set in more expensive rewritable memory in the first place, with no particular plan to make much use of rewritability. In a budget keyboard, yet.

Pretty much every board has *some* rewritable space, to support updates/bugfixes to the OS, possible feature upgrades, and to store user programs. But it's more expensive memory, and companies won't put in more than they need. Like all memory, though, it comes in certain increments, that will not match up to exactly what you need. So that would be an explanation for why there could be some extra space that could be made use of, even if most sounds are in the cheaper ROM.

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Please try to describe VR-700's keybed vs. Fatar TP/8O found on Nords, even the noise factor if you can...

Thanks!

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VR-700 action is less highly sprung than the Nord TP/8O models, it doesn't push back as strongly. I don't think there's a noticeable difference in noise, except that at least on some previous models, there have been numerous reports of Nords developing "squeaky" keys (and I've experienced it myself). It's probably too soon to see if that's still an issue on the newer models.

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Do you think that all TP/8 (piano/synth/organ) models are the same? I mean, Artis 7 feels like Electro 5D?

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Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
Do you think that all TP/8 (piano/synth/organ) models are the same? I mean, Artis 7 feels like Electro 5D?

Not at all. Artis 7 (TP8) does not feel like NE5D (TP8O), the keys are even shaped and sized differently. For example, besides the obvious waterfall versus lipped piano-style shape, the length of the keys are different (i.e. the flat area of the black keys is about a half inch longer on the Artis7 than on the NE5D). It's really very different. The trickier thing is that not even all the TP8O actions feel the same. The Nord is more heavily sprung than the Numa Organ, Hammond SK1 and similar... and the Numa Organ 2 is more lightly sprung than the original Numa Organ and the Hammonds. So, different TP80 models, play differently, though they all share a "family resemblance," whereas the TP8 of the Artis7 doesn't even share the family resemblance, it's a different playing experience.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Not at all. Artis 7 (TP8) does not feel like NE5D (TP8O), the keys are even shaped and sized differently. For example, besides the obvious waterfall versus lipped piano-style shape, the length of the keys are different (i.e. the flat area of the black keys is about a half inch longer on the Artis7 than on the NE5D). It's really very different. The trickier thing is that not even all the TP8O actions feel the same. The Nord is more heavily sprung than the Numa Organ, Hammond SK1 and similar... and the Numa Organ 2 is more lightly sprung than the original Numa Organ and the Hammonds. So, different TP80 models, play differently, though they all share a "family resemblance," whereas the TP8 of the Artis7 doesn't even share the family resemblance, it's a different playing experience.


Besides size and shape, witch TP8O version would you prefer and why?

How is the keybed on Artis 7 so different, it's mechanically or it employs a kind of different velocity curves (don't know much about this)?

Is there a known reason for Nord to order stronger springs for their waterfall keyboards?

A weird question: do you think that I could fit for example a TP8O from Hammond into my NS2EX73?

Many thanks,

sb

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Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
Besides size and shape, witch TP8O version would you prefer and why?

All TP8O have the same size and shape. They can feel different depending on other things, i.e. the tension of the spring, and how deep the travel to the landing surface is. In general, I prefer the ones with less spring tension, but people can have different opinions, or even opinions that vary depending on what they're using them for (ie. only for organ playing, or also for other uses).

Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
How is the keybed on Artis 7 so different, it's mechanically or it employs a kind of different velocity curves (don't know much about this)?

I can tell you just from looking at it that it's a different size and shape from the TP8O. I can tell you that it feels different to play from any of the TP8O models I've played (which, themselves, can feel somewhat different from each other), but I can't tell you why, I don't know anything more about the engineering behind it.

Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
Is there a known reason for Nord to order stronger springs for their waterfall keyboards?

My understanding is that they feel that it makes it better for piano playing. Some people agree, some don't.

Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
IA weird question: do you think that I could fit for example a TP8O from Hammond into my NS2EX73?

I don't know whether the entire assembly as a unit can be taken out of one and put into the other... but even if you could, in that case, you'd lose the aftertouch which the NS2 has and the Hammonds do not, so I think it would be a bad idea. AFAIK, the individual keys among all the TP8O models are interchangeable, but unless you need one as a spare replacement part, there's not much point to changing the keys because AFAIK, the fact that the keys feel different in the different boards has nothing to do with the keys themselves, but rather with the surrounding parts, like the springs, the landing surface, the presence of an aftertouch strip. It *is*possible to take the springs out of a Hammond or whatever and put it into a Nord, and that will alter the feel.

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I just got the chance to examine the new VR-730 and guess what - it employs the same Fatar TP8O found on my NS2EX73 (no aftertouch though)... Are you sure the VR-700 was not the same but with softer springs maybe?

I also tried the Korg PA4X and IMO it has the best semi-wheighted action. I like it more than Montage or Kronos 61/new 88 light-weight. I would really like to compare it to Artis 7...

Has anyone tried the new FA-07? It's the same as 06 but with metal plates under the white keys for some "weight", or bigger/better keys?

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Originally Posted by sonicblasphemy
I just got the chance to examine the new VR-730 and guess what - it employs the same Fatar TP8O found on my NS2EX73 (no aftertouch though)...


Interesting find!

Do you have any pictures to support this claim?

Kind regards,
James
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Interesting find!

Do you have any pictures to support this claim?

Kind regards,
James
x


No. Besides the feel and noise of it, which was almost enough for me to tell, I've turned on my phone's "flashlight" and looked inside on the right side of the keys. I know this keyboard very well, as I had to open my Nord for some repairs...

Anyway, Roland also used Fatar (at least in the past), so it's not such a big surprise I guess. I'm starting to have some thoughts about the cheapest/smallest keys of FA-06/VR-09 too. They may be TP9S or TP7BA...

The only company that makes every keyboard for it's synths (from cheapest to high-end) is Yamaha. Even Korg used Yamaha keys for a while, in the past.

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