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#2679466 - 10/03/17 12:50 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Bernhard Stopper]  
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alfredo capurso Offline
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Hi Bernhard,

Coming back home, I saw that you had posted. Where is your post gone?

Cheers


alfredo
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#2679612 - 10/04/17 06:35 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Hi Bernhard,

I would like to make sure that you have actually understood why your whole review was erroneous.

Let me guess what happened then. In the Chas paper, section 4.5, you read this:

"... In distances of octaves, (5*2)^(1/40), (10*2)^(1/52) etc. this ratio modifies towards 2^(1/12)."

For some reason you misunderstood and thought that I was addressing the scale octave_values relative to those ratios.

Actually, I was addressing different scale "pure" ratios, in order to check how they progress, octave after octave.

So, there I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1.

I have also re-checked Table 6 and section 4.6 and I confirm, all the figures and the relative graphs are correct.

Please, let me know if now you have grasped those sections. If not, I did a screen-shot of your latest post, the one you deleted, and we could look at those individual points together.

I am sorry, you thought that wrong formulas could take me to wrong theoretical conclusions and to wrong expectations in my practice.

Have a close look also at Table 6, those comparisons are really eloquent.

Regards, a.c.
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.


alfredo
#2679656 - 10/04/17 11:23 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Hi Alfredo,

just to understand your interpretation of "pure scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Chas does not, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 ?

#2679674 - 10/04/17 01:12 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Sorry, Bernhard, what are "pure scaleETs"? What do you mean? Pure-ratio ET scales?


alfredo
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#2679675 - 10/04/17 01:40 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Just to understand your interpretation of "pure ratio scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?

#2679676 - 10/04/17 02:02 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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I do not think that giving an "interpretation" was my point, the results I reported are numerical evidences.

Those pure ratios derive from the harmonic series and their individual scale position is used as the exponent.

I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation. Would you?

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/04/17 02:21 PM.

alfredo
#2679683 - 10/04/17 02:27 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I do not think that giving an "interpretation" was my point, the results I reported are numerical evidences.

Those pure ratios derive from the harmonic series and their individual scale position is used as the exponent.



Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?

#2679691 - 10/04/17 02:59 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation. Would you?


alfredo
#2679695 - 10/04/17 03:13 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation. Would you?


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?

#2679700 - 10/04/17 04:09 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Bernhard Stopper]  
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Just to understand your interpretation of "pure ratio scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?


Come on Alfredo, as Chas inventor you have the expertise to answer me this simple question.

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?

#2679702 - 10/04/17 04:19 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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alfredo capurso Offline
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Bernhard, if you see that we are going in circle, please try to make an effort, wording your question in a different way.

The Chas algorithm (as you have certainly noticed) uses two partials of the harmonic series. As a consequence, the resulting scale ratio does not lead to one integer partial somewhere across the scale. That is why I wrote "I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation."

Edit: I have seen that you had posted more. Here below is your latest post:

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Just to understand your interpretation of "pure ratio scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?


Come on Alfredo, as Chas inventor you have the expertise to answer me this simple question.

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?




Help me understand, Bernhard, were you checking my expertise?
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/04/17 05:01 PM.

alfredo
#2679750 - 10/04/17 10:25 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



Ehi, Jeff, that's nice... do you remember when I said that you were almost there? Well, you are even closer now.

...


No, I am much further. I am realizing there is a more disturbing possibility than you being deliberately deceitful. You may be mentally deranged, truly believing and proselytizing the irrational. I am going to distance myself. It is not something I handle well. It gives me the whillies. Farewell, Alfredo.

Wise decision. I'm following suit.

Kees
PS Just to correct some disinformation A posted after copying my posts here to yet another thread. He states 4 people "defamed" him (including me of course) over the last 8 years.

However if you check A's profile and browse his posts and see who "defamed" this chas "theory" you'll get a laundry list of pretty much all the competent piano technicians that have been active on this forum over the last 8 years.

Last edited by DoelKees; 10/04/17 10:50 PM.
#2679759 - 10/05/17 01:28 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: DoelKees]  
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alfredo capurso Offline
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Kees,

Please post your comments here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1916609/1/c-ha-s-model-climates-and-comments.html
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/05/17 02:02 AM.

alfredo
#2679771 - 10/05/17 02:53 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1

You say (here and in your Chas paper) that pure scale ratios, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1


my questions was/is:

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
[/quote]

your latest response was:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
As a consequence, the resulting scale ratio does not lead to one integer partial somewhere across the scale."

I was not asking if Chas ratio does LEAD to one integer partial somewhere across the scale, but

Does Chas, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1 or not? (Like you said that pure scale ratios, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1)

#2679819 - 10/05/17 08:59 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Bernhard,

My reply is the one above. If you have a point (and I hope you do) just make it.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/05/17 02:11 PM.

alfredo
#2680175 - 10/06/17 05:24 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: DoelKees]  
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alfredo capurso Offline
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



Ehi, Jeff, that's nice... do you remember when I said that you were almost there? Well, you are even closer now.

...


No, I am much further. I am realizing there is a more disturbing possibility than you being deliberately deceitful. You may be mentally deranged, truly believing and proselytizing the irrational. I am going to distance myself. It is not something I handle well. It gives me the whillies. Farewell, Alfredo.

Wise decision. I'm following suit.

Kees
PS Just to correct some disinformation A posted after copying my posts here to yet another thread. He states 4 people "defamed" him (including me of course) over the last 8 years.

However if you check A's profile and browse his posts and see who "defamed" this chas "theory" you'll get a laundry list of pretty much all the competent piano technicians that have been active on this forum over the last 8 years.


Hi Kees,

Perhaps you thought I would let you get away with that nth deceitful post of yours, but I can't. This is how “true” I can be, being a piano tuner.

You report "...a laundry list of pretty much all the competent piano technicians that have been active on this forum over the last 8 years...", and you state that they would have acted like a slanderer, meaning like you.

I remember only a few others that didn't seem to approve: Bill and BDB - at some point - thought my sharing was a meaningless effort, two others didn't like my verbiage or my opinion on pure 12ths. Actually, right at the beginning one poster (Roy123) helped me solve an issue, though complaining that the paper was difficult to read and it could have been "much shorter, crisper, and more lucid.". I am still grateful for that help.

In any case, all posters were fairly respectful and never carried out a systematic defamatory action as you did. Other posters were grateful, but this is another story.

Having said that, it is no problem with my sharing, but I believe you owe an apology before you leave, no, no to me, to the researcher you insulted when you wrote “…Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.”.

In a later post you explained: “The plain-language summary I posted of that paper by Haye was intended for readers who lack the technical background to figure out what it was really about.”

Now, you call that “plain-language”, but it insinuates unequivocally a case of "scientific misconduct". Haye's paper was not "..really about.." that.

The sooner you apologise, the better, then go.
.


alfredo
#2680378 - 10/07/17 05:25 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Bernhard Stopper]  
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper


Come on Alfredo, as Chas inventor you have the expertise to answer me this simple question.

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?




Hi Bernhard,

It took me a while to understand your last question, perhaps due to our lexicon.

You were asking: …”Does Chas, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1 or not? (Like you said that pure scale ratios, octave after octave, CONVERGE on ratio 2:1).”…

In my paper I had compared “pure-interval” ratios describing their trend correctly, and you asked me about the Chas incremental ratio, so that (I guess) I would say that also the latter converges on 2.

I could not understand your question because, actually, one could well grasp the answer from Table 6, or from the Conclusion: …“This system sheds light on a harmonic sequence, the series of n/n+1 values (section 4.5) which the harmonic partial values 3 and 5 also (edit: read also) converge towards in their respective logarithmic scales.”…

As a consequence, I do not really understand the point you wanted to make (let me know), and I get the idea that you may not have understood my point yet (let me know).

It is relevant that all ratios ≠ 2^(1/12) converge on 2, they will produce some “differences” close to the n/n+1 sequence shown in Table 6.

“Differences” is what I have focused on, and “differences” is what the Chas model is about.

About one recent post of yours:

Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

I don´t see what is wrong in attacking a wrong theory.
Arguments please. Only saying my guess is wrong isn´t an argument. In my view my guess is proven as it correlates with the wrong model you have in mind about pure twelfths ET (not only about pure twelfths ET, but also the pure thirds ET model you mentioned in the same section. This proves to me that there is a lack of understanding of the basics of equal temperaments). The misinterpretation of ET is what makes you believe that Chas ET is superior over other ones. This of course needs some attack.



Well, as you have seen, you were wrong. Do not worry, I am not asking for your apologies.

I am sorry that eight years have gone since my first sharing, and during all this time you may have been misled by your own wrong interpretation of the figures contained in the Chas paper. It is evident why, as a result, you concluded that there were errors in that paper, and that I had been misled by those errors when interpreting my tuning practice.

So, I may have to clarify that – first - I approached practice, only afterwards theory. Not too many, but good 27 years of practice for achieving what I wanted to hear, and some three years of theory and numbers for sharing it.

If possible, I would appreciate if you could confirm that you have understood why the Chas algorithm addresses not one but two “pure” partials and "differences", instead of one "pure" interval.

I would also appreciate if you could rectify your statement about Chas being a wrong theory, or a wrong model, or a wrong ratio, possibly avoiding – in the future – more insinuations and/or statements that you cannot prove true.

I hope a new season will come, with further experimentation and more... respectful sharing.

Regards, a.c.
.


alfredo
#2681586 - 10/12/17 04:55 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by TheTuner


If you tune each string of an unison to the EDT, and they are all set to "zero", the resulting unison can be lower up to 1.2 cents. Mostly around d5 up to f6 it is most obvious.


I wonder if your observation would stand up in a controlled experiment. After all, I tune d5 to f6 as well -- but _never_ observe "sagging" anywhere near 1.2 cents.

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by TheTuner


If you tune each string of an unison to the EDT, and they are all set to "zero", the resulting unison can be lower up to 1.2 cents. Mostly around d5 up to f6 it is most obvious.


I wonder if your observation would stand up in a controlled experiment. After all, I tune d5 to f6 as well -- but _never_ observe "sagging" anywhere near 1.2 cents.


Hi Kent,

Good to see you here.

In my experience, the amount of sagging is never the same, that depends on the individual piano. Yes, I too think that some experimentation would be interesting, also taking into consideration different/small orders of magnitude.
.


Hi Kent,

In order to double-check what I am reporting, I would suggest to execute the same procedure that took me to those observations (this is for anyone who would like experimenting).

I would suggest to tune with an ETD any stretched ET curve "steeper" than Chas, it may be "pure" 5ths, or pure 12ths, or pure 19ths, or pure 26ths, even using the styles you have created for VT.

Mute from around A2 up to around E6;

tune centre strings according to your ETD, starting from A4-A3-F3, like if it was your aural sequence, then up to E6, and then from A3 down to A2;

then tune all the unisons from A2 up to E6.

Then check again the A4-E6 range and see if your ETD notices any pitch drop, and compare with the lower range. This might be a way to double-check what I am saying about pitch sagging, even on pianos that are very close to pitch.


Hi Bernhard,

In a different thread you wrote: ..."Minimal overall beating means clean to me. I use that description (minimum overall beating) to make clear that if speaking of a pure or clear interval on a piano, there are generally all but at LEAST one partial pair that have not the same frequency, but are tuned to a target, where they sound perfectly clean, still, beat-less, same as you possibly demonstrated successfully in Canada."...

Please, bear in mind that pure 12ths is one possibility. When tuning center strings, we may choose to tune even pure fifths, or a milder stretch like pure 26th, that depends on the condition of the piano and on the range we are tuning, and it may vary depending on how we expand the temperament.

I was hoping to get a reply from you, after the storm you created.

Regards, a.c.
.


alfredo
#2681600 - 10/12/17 06:04 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Kent,

In order to double-check what I am reporting, I would suggest to execute the same procedure that took me to those observations (this is for anyone who would like experimenting).

I would suggest to tune with an ETD any stretched ET curve "steeper" than Chas, it may be "pure" 5ths, or pure 12ths, or pure 19ths, or pure 26ths, even using the styles you have created for VT.

Mute from around A2 up to around E6;

tune centre strings according to your ETD, starting from A4-A3-F3, like if it was your aural sequence, then up to E6, and then from A3 down to A2;

then tune all the unisons from A2 up to E6.

Then check again the A4-E6 range and see if your ETD notices any pitch drop, and compare with the lower range. This might be a way to double-check what I am saying about pitch sagging, even on pianos that are very close to pitch.



Your procedure would demonstrate only a tuning that is not yet complete, nothing more.

I tune unisons as I go, and go back to refine and correct errors as needed.

#2681813 - 10/13/17 11:52 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Kent Swafford]  
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Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Hi Kent,

In order to double-check what I am reporting, I would suggest to execute the same procedure that took me to those observations (this is for anyone who would like experimenting).

I would suggest to tune with an ETD any stretched ET curve "steeper" than Chas, it may be "pure" 5ths, or pure 12ths, or pure 19ths, or pure 26ths, even using the styles you have created for VT.

Mute from around A2 up to around E6;

tune centre strings according to your ETD, starting from A4-A3-F3, like if it was your aural sequence, then up to E6, and then from A3 down to A2;

then tune all the unisons from A2 up to E6.

Then check again the A4-E6 range and see if your ETD notices any pitch drop, and compare with the lower range. This might be a way to double-check what I am saying about pitch sagging, even on pianos that are very close to pitch.



Your procedure would demonstrate only a tuning that is not yet complete, nothing more.

I tune unisons as I go, and go back to refine and correct errors as needed.



Hi Kent,

I am trying to address one issue at a time.

The first issue is this one: depending on a certain procedure, we may observe a pitch drop while we are tuning.

The above does not address the end result or the number of corrections we would have to make, nor the number of passes we are ready to do.

The one I submitted is one procedure I may use, and it is only meant to reproduce a scenary that may explain why I use steeper stretch curves.

If, looking at that procedure, you can already "hear" the pitch drop I talk about - even on pianos that are "close to pitch" - we may skeep the experimentation and address a second issue. (Edit: Let me know)

On the other hand, that could be a starting point for those wanting to experiment and experience pitch drop at different orders of magnitude.

Regards, a.c.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/13/17 06:26 PM.

alfredo
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