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Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Fazioli-Yang] #2681163
10/10/17 05:19 PM
10/10/17 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Fazioli-Yang
The invention of smart phone with the ability to run apps seems to have removed completely ETDs that come in the form of a hardware. I remember Verituner used to have a hardware and the software was just an option. Now Verituner has done away with hardware completely.

How far have ETDs progressed ? I recall back then TuneLab was the most economical tuning software. To current TuneLab users, how far has this software progressed compared to 8 years ago ?

FY


Hi,

I am not an expert with ETD's at all, the only one I tested was the VT-100 Yamaha in the 80's.

I too am interested to know how they have progressed. For instance, I remember that then, the mid-range was pretty approximate, but bass and trebles were a bit all over the place. Now thinking about it, it was pretty much the same with another expensive ETD dated 2009.

Not really comparing aural tunings, since the individual ear may or may not be able to discern or appreciate a difference, referring this to both the tuner and a customer with their own ear limits... But how are ETD's doing with those ranges nowadays?

To those colleagues who own and use more than one ETD, have you compared/cross-checked their "tunings" of a particular stretch scheme, how similar/consistent they are across the keyboard and in those critical ranges, how they match or do not-match with each other and with a particular scheme?

Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?

Regards, a.c.
.


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Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Fazioli-Yang] #2681170
10/10/17 05:57 PM
10/10/17 05:57 PM
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"Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?"

The same question could apply to one aural tuner checking the efficiency of a different aural tuner.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Kent Swafford] #2681183
10/10/17 06:35 PM
10/10/17 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by Ed Foote


It is on the smaller pianos, the ones that have inferior scales, that the machine is lost. Its judgement is not up to making the sensual compromises our ears do with ease, so there is a trade-off.



OnlyPure, Verituner, and CyberTuner have no particular problem tuning small pianos. The modern ETD's tune lesser scales just fine. Of course, when the tuning is done, we still hear the lesser scale as a lesser scale, but it is a lesser scale that is quite in tune. 8^)
’...quite in tune.”

There’s the rub.

Who or what decides when a piano is ‘quite in tune’? What aspects of the tuning make it ‘quite in tune’ or ‘not quite in tune’? Is it a binary decision or is there a ‘range’ of different, but all equally ‘quite in tune’ tunings for a given piano? If the latter, then how is the ‘range’ defined. This line of reasoning of course could go on for ever.

We all purport to know when a piano is in tune, and yet, there have been endless discussions on defining something ‘as simple’ as ET. Words like ‘harmonious’, ‘organ-like’, ‘minimal entropy’, and the like are used as if they were objective, scientific terms.

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Fazioli-Yang] #2681204
10/10/17 08:09 PM
10/10/17 08:09 PM
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What is the list of conditions for which we can reasonably say "This piano is not in tune?"
If none of those circumstances are met, then perhaps we can say "this piano is quite in tune."
Even if we don't like it.


Ed Sutton, RPT
Just a piano tuner!
Durham NC USA
Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Fazioli-Yang] #2681225
10/10/17 10:35 PM
10/10/17 10:35 PM
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Pfft. This just has to be easier than you guys let on. I looked at Tunic OnlyPure in the App Store and it says it’s for ages 4+! Poor Ed M’s world is going to be destroyed by an army of toddlers.

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: prout] #2681229
10/10/17 11:40 PM
10/10/17 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by Ed Foote


It is on the smaller pianos, the ones that have inferior scales, that the machine is lost. Its judgement is not up to making the sensual compromises our ears do with ease, so there is a trade-off.



OnlyPure, Verituner, and CyberTuner have no particular problem tuning small pianos. The modern ETD's tune lesser scales just fine. Of course, when the tuning is done, we still hear the lesser scale as a lesser scale, but it is a lesser scale that is quite in tune. 8^)
’...quite in tune.”

There’s the rub.

Who or what decides when a piano is ‘quite in tune’? What aspects of the tuning make it ‘quite in tune’ or ‘not quite in tune’? Is it a binary decision or is there a ‘range’ of different, but all equally ‘quite in tune’ tunings for a given piano? If the latter, then how is the ‘range’ defined. This line of reasoning of course could go on for ever.

We all purport to know when a piano is in tune, and yet, there have been endless discussions on defining something ‘as simple’ as ET. Words like ‘harmonious’, ‘organ-like’, ‘minimal entropy’, and the like are used as if they were objective, scientific terms.


Wise words. I'm trying to insert a "tumbs-up" icon but it seems broken.

Data we have from PTG ETD/Aural showdowns indicate ETD tunings are at least as good as aural tunings. But that was probably on "nice and easy to tune" instruments. Only way to settle this is to compare ETD /Aural tunings on "low end" pianos, and have an expert panel evaluate them blind.

I know you have a "high end" piano, have you ever compared an ETD tuning (probably executed by yourself) with an aural tuning by a "top notch" aural tuner, if you managed to find such a person?

Kees

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: DoelKees] #2681269
10/11/17 08:48 AM
10/11/17 08:48 AM
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I had Michael Ierullo from Toronto tune the piano (aural, open string method) three times when it was new, then I started tuning it myself, both aurally for UTs and using TuneLab, then Dirk’s Tuner for ET. My own tech wanted to try his new SAT 4 on my piano, so I let him.

I can honesty and very subjectively say that I could not tell the difference amongst the ETs from a musician’s perspective. I did not count beats or check the progression of intervals.

My experience three grands ago with my sub 5 foot version was very different. I had one aural tuner whose tuning I much preferred over anyone else (The piano had lived with me in N.H., and 5 places in Ontario over a period of 40+ years and several rebuilds.) He seemed to make the best out of a not-very-nice piano.

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Agent88] #2681284
10/11/17 10:38 AM
10/11/17 10:38 AM
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Agent88,
Oh dam you caught us! Yes Virginia you too can be a concert tuner. Just get some code stuck in your phone, (try to avoid Putin's software), a tuning wrench and run on over to your local concert hall and offer to tune Andre Watt's piano!


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Fazioli-Yang] #2681286
10/11/17 10:45 AM
10/11/17 10:45 AM
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In the interests of punctuation sticklers, I think it should be André Watts's piano, or possibly André Watts' piano would be permissible.

The pianist's name is André Watts, not André Watt.

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2681288
10/11/17 10:50 AM
10/11/17 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Agent88,
Oh dam you caught us! Yes Virginia you too can be a concert tuner. Just get some code stuck in your phone, (try to avoid Putin's software), a tuning wrench and run on over to your local concert hall and offer to tune Andre Watt's piano!


The best pianists usually started playing at age < 4...
Can´t see why this should be wrong for tuners wink



Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 10/11/17 10:51 AM.
Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Ed Foote] #2681391
10/11/17 07:01 PM
10/11/17 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Greetings,
The machine is only a tool, and bears little discussion. The manner in which the tool is employed is a more profitable topic.


I would agree.


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

All of the modern, programmable, machines, on a well scaled piano, will produce superior results to 90% of the aural tuners I have encountered.


Hmm... Ed, I am not sure if what you are saying is meant to prize ETD's, or the aural tuners you have encountered.


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

It will match 5% of them, and that last 5% will have a very small market that can tell their differences.


Does that mean that tuning aurally would give little or insignificant advantage where you work?


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

On the big pianos, the FAC tuning on my SAT has proven itself to a long list of world-recognized talent, in performance and recording, (tuners can get away with murder on performance tuning, it is under the microphones, in front of a producer, that things are totally unforgiving.) I had no qualms about using it, simply to test, for perhaps the world's number one cellist as the master tracks were recorded. It was very well received.


Did you have to readjust bass and trebles?


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

I have an ear modified program for most of the pianos I see, and they have been tweaked here and there to match what I hear, rather than simple formulae from IH measurements. On a D, the difference between my "refined" template and the machine generated one is so small that it can be tossed into the moot basket and no one would notice.


Which is the D you mention? Where do you need to tweak most often?


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

It is on the smaller pianos, the ones that have inferior scales, that the machine is lost. Its judgement is not up to making the sensual compromises our ears do with ease, so there is a trade-off.


What would you say is the percentage of "well scaled" and "inferior scaled" pianos around, in your area?


Originally Posted by Ed Foote

There are situations where the machine is going to give an inferior result to even a journeyman level tech, and there are places that the best tech will have to strain to keep up .
regards,


Yes, you said that at the beginning, it depends on "...The manner in which the tool is employed". So, in your experience, do ETD's still need some "aural" tweaking?

Thanks for sharing your know-how.

Regards, a.c.
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/11/17 07:10 PM.

alfredo
Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Bernhard Stopper] #2681405
10/11/17 08:18 PM
10/11/17 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Agent88,
Oh dam you caught us! Yes Virginia you too can be a concert tuner. Just get some code stuck in your phone, (try to avoid Putin's software), a tuning wrench and run on over to your local concert hall and offer to tune Andre Watt's piano!


The best pianists usually started playing at age < 4...
Can´t see why this should be wrong for tuners wink




Well played.

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Chris Leslie] #2681592
10/12/17 05:31 PM
10/12/17 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


"Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?"


The same question could apply to one aural tuner checking the efficiency of a different aural tuner.


Sorry, Chris, I forgot to reply.

Yes, I agree with you. I check other aural tuners, from time to time, and they, in turn, check my tunings.

I would like to know what are the ETD's discrepancies, and I am surprised that a sort of "rigorous" study hasn't been done yet. What are they selling? When I think about it, eight years ago it was like ETD ET "variant" of 12th-root-of-two, remember? The reason for a variant being.. inharmonicity...
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/12/17 05:32 PM.

alfredo
Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: alfredo capurso] #2681624
10/12/17 09:08 PM
10/12/17 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


"Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?"


The same question could apply to one aural tuner checking the efficiency of a different aural tuner.


Sorry, Chris, I forgot to reply.

Yes, I agree with you. I check other aural tuners, from time to time, and they, in turn, check my tunings.

I would like to know what are the ETD's discrepancies, and I am surprised that a sort of "rigorous" study hasn't been done yet. What are they selling? When I think about it, eight years ago it was like ETD ET "variant" of 12th-root-of-two, remember? The reason for a variant being.. inharmonicity...
.


Well, yes but that doesn't get us to objective data.

ETA are not scientific instruments objectively reporting data. They are devices that process the data and provide a readout based on the internal processing program. Contents and function of the program (how it does what it does) is not transparent but proprietary. It would be more scientific to use a frequency counter to see objectively what pitch different ETA machines set notes at. It's correct. You can't use one ETA to judge another ETA.

Speaking of ETA, I believe the British term, Electronic Tuning Aid, is more accurately descriptive than Electronic Tuning Device (as thought a device can tune a piano). I advocate that we begin to use ETA as the more appropriate terminology.


Keith Akins, RPT
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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Fazioli-Yang] #2681632
10/12/17 09:38 PM
10/12/17 09:38 PM
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Quote
Speaking of ETA, I believe the British term, Electronic Tuning Aid, is more accurately descriptive than Electronic Tuning Device (as thought a device can tune a piano). I advocate that we begin to use ETA as the more appropriate terminology.


I agree, although the A could also stand of "App" as in Application. The Device thing was started because at one time the ETA's were stand alone devices. Now most tuning programs are apps that are put on a device, although there's still the Accu-Tuner and TLA that are stand alone devices.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Fazioli-Yang] #2681639
10/12/17 10:01 PM
10/12/17 10:01 PM
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Quote
What about Sanderson Accu-Tuner ? I can see the ads flashing on the right hand side of this page.


It is the granddaddy of modern tuning devices. I haven't used one but if you want a stand alone device this would be the way to go. In my mind it would be good for people who don't have a smartphone and just want to have a device that tunes pianos. One advantage is that the battery lasts a long time, like days, if not weeks, depending on how much you use it. Compared to other apps it is a little limited and a down side would be the size. It's also rather expensive, especially compared to Easy Piano Tuner ($20) that even has a pitch raise feature and can save unlimited tuning files.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: Fazioli-Yang] #2681641
10/12/17 10:13 PM
10/12/17 10:13 PM
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Is TLA still manufactured? After visiting the website, there are no prices listed, not even in Euros. There also doesn't seem to be any contact info.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: prout] #2681658
10/12/17 11:33 PM
10/12/17 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
I had Michael Ierullo from Toronto tune the piano (aural, open string method) three times when it was new, then I started tuning it myself, both aurally for UTs and using TuneLab, then Dirk’s Tuner for ET. My own tech wanted to try his new SAT 4 on my piano, so I let him.

I can honesty and very subjectively say that I could not tell the difference amongst the ETs from a musician’s perspective. I did not count beats or check the progression of intervals.
Interesting, that is a data point.
Originally Posted by prout
My experience three grands ago with my sub 5 foot version was very different. I had one aural tuner whose tuning I much preferred over anyone else (The piano had lived with me in N.H., and 5 places in Ontario over a period of 40+ years and several rebuilds.) He seemed to make the best out of a not-very-nice piano.

Did the "anyone else" use an ETD?

Kees

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: DoelKees] #2681757
10/13/17 08:30 AM
10/13/17 08:30 AM
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No one, to my knowledge, ever used an ETD on my sub 5 foot grand.

Re: How far has ETD progressed ? [Re: kpembrook] #2681900
10/13/17 05:42 PM
10/13/17 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


"Would it be wrong using an ETD for checking the efficiency of a different ETD?"


The same question could apply to one aural tuner checking the efficiency of a different aural tuner.


Sorry, Chris, I forgot to reply.

Yes, I agree with you. I check other aural tuners, from time to time, and they, in turn, check my tunings.

I would like to know what are the ETD's discrepancies, and I am surprised that a sort of "rigorous" study hasn't been done yet. What are they selling? When I think about it, eight years ago it was like ETD ET "variant" of 12th-root-of-two, remember? The reason for a variant being.. inharmonicity...
.


Well, yes but that doesn't get us to objective data.

ETA are not scientific instruments objectively reporting data. They are devices that process the data and provide a readout based on the internal processing program. Contents and function of the program (how it does what it does) is not transparent but proprietary. It would be more scientific to use a frequency counter to see objectively what pitch different ETA machines set notes at. It's correct. You can't use one ETA to judge another ETA.

Speaking of ETA, I believe the British term, Electronic Tuning Aid, is more accurately descriptive than Electronic Tuning Device (as thought a device can tune a piano). I advocate that we begin to use ETA as the more appropriate terminology.


Hi Keith,

Thanks for your comment.

You wrote: ..."ETA are not scientific instruments objectively reporting data.".

Yes, I agree, especially "final data" (!!), ETA do not (because they cannot) "guaranty" what you will hear at the end of "their" tuning. If not "..scientific..", what could the word be?

..."..They are devices that process the data and provide a readout based on the internal processing program."...

Yes, agreed.

..."Contents and function of the program (how it does what it does) is not transparent but proprietary."...

Perhaps not for all of them, have you checked the EPT?

..."It would be more scientific to use a frequency counter to see objectively what pitch different ETA machines set notes at."...

I thought that some ETA (can't remember which) was able to do that.

..."..It's correct. You can't use one ETA to judge another ETA."

Hmm... for instance, it wouldn't make sense checking the discrepancies between the various ETA "pure 12ths" stretch schemes that are available today, is that what you mean?
.


alfredo
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