Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
109 registered members (barbaram, anotherscott, accordeur, beeboss, Brendan, AlphaBravoCharlie, AJB, 26 invisible), 1,456 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Jorleyy] #2680627
10/08/17 05:18 PM
10/08/17 05:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
P
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by Jorleyy

Perhaps it is true that many people would react like you, that doesn't mean I am wrong though. IMO those three mentioned composers are vastly overrated.


You do realise that you are implying that the majority of people on this forum have poor taste and, compared with you, an inferior ability to perceive what are positive and negative qualities in music?

Last edited by pianojosh23; 10/08/17 05:31 PM.
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: bennevis] #2680631
10/08/17 05:28 PM
10/08/17 05:28 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,166
JoelW Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
JoelW  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,166
Originally Posted by bennevis
The first Ballade is anything but a masterpiece. It's only popular in PW because most amateurs can actually play bits of it. Even the opening tune.

That's why all beginners think it's a masterpiece.......

I hope this is a joke.

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680636
10/08/17 05:49 PM
10/08/17 05:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 152
J
Jorleyy Offline
Full Member
Jorleyy  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 152
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Jorleyy

Perhaps it is true that many people would react like you, that doesn't mean I am wrong though. IMO those three mentioned composers are vastly overrated.


You do realise that you are implying that the majority of people on this forum have poor taste and, compared with you, an inferior ability to perceive what are positive and negative qualities in music?

That was not my intention. I just said I regard these composers as overrated. While Berg if anything is underrated. This is just as much an opinion as the opposite opinion.

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Jorleyy] #2680640
10/08/17 06:05 PM
10/08/17 06:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
P
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Jorleyy

Perhaps it is true that many people would react like you, that doesn't mean I am wrong though. IMO those three mentioned composers are vastly overrated.


You do realise that you are implying that the majority of people on this forum have poor taste and, compared with you, an inferior ability to perceive what are positive and negative qualities in music?

That was not my intention. I just said I regard these composers as overrated. While Berg if anything is underrated. This is just as much an opinion as the opposite opinion.


It not being your intention does not change the implication. I agree that it is just as much of an opinion: it is a rather cynical and condescending opinion to have though when you consider those who don't hold it, don't you think? Why is it necessary to use the words 'greater' or 'overrated'?

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Jorleyy] #2680643
10/08/17 06:31 PM
10/08/17 06:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,755
B
bennevis Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,755
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Bartóks, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: bennevis] #2680644
10/08/17 06:37 PM
10/08/17 06:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
P
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong? Can't we all just express enthusiasm/lack thereof without these annoying value judgements that make a mockery of the perceptions of others? What is the point of all this?

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680645
10/08/17 06:40 PM
10/08/17 06:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,755
B
bennevis Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,755
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Can't we all just express enthusiasm/lack thereof without these annoying value judgements that make a mockery of the perceptions of others? What is the point of all this?

Does anybody need a point to argue pointlessly? grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680646
10/08/17 06:47 PM
10/08/17 06:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
P
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Polyphonist] #2680647
10/08/17 06:51 PM
10/08/17 06:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
P
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Seriously? I mean, I'm taking it seriously because from what I have observed over time you seem to be allergic to most music written after 1900.

Last edited by pianojosh23; 10/08/17 06:52 PM.
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680648
10/08/17 06:53 PM
10/08/17 06:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
P
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Seriously? I mean, I'm taking it seriously because from what I have observed over time you seem to be allergic to most music written after 1900.

Especially during this season.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Polyphonist] #2680650
10/08/17 06:58 PM
10/08/17 06:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
P
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Seriously? I mean, I'm taking it seriously because from what I have observed over time you seem to be allergic to most music written after 1900.

Especially during this season.


Which is fine, of course. But I really do hope that you can accept that the Berg is considered to be one of the major works of the last 100 years and that this isn't because people are trying to appear sophisticated, or because it was a century of music with no really talented composers, or whatever the argument may be.

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: JoelW] #2680651
10/08/17 07:06 PM
10/08/17 07:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
P
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Seriously? I mean, I'm taking it seriously because from what I have observed over time you seem to be allergic to most music written after 1900.

Especially during this season.


Which is fine, of course. But I really do hope that you can accept that the Berg is considered to be one of the major works of the last 100 years and that this isn't because people are trying to appear sophisticated, or because it was a century of music with no really talented composers, or whatever the argument may be.

I don't understand why you are throwing around this argument about how we don't think any 20th century composers are good because bennevis's point involved comparing the Berg to other 20th century pieces of the same genre.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: JoelW] #2680653
10/08/17 07:13 PM
10/08/17 07:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
P
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

I don't understand why you are throwing around this argument about how we don't think any 20th century composers are good because bennevis's point involved comparing the Berg to other 20th century pieces of the same genre.


This isn't about 'we.' This is about you, as I have noticed in the past you expressing distaste regarding a lot of 20th century music and you replied to my comment about people loving Berg's VC by saying they are 'wrong.' So I'm basically wondering if you were serious. Or you can just not answer, also fine by me. I just think tolerance/respect of the views of others is important.

Last edited by pianojosh23; 10/08/17 07:15 PM.
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680666
10/08/17 08:16 PM
10/08/17 08:16 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,166
JoelW Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
JoelW  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,166
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

I don't understand why you are throwing around this argument about how we don't think any 20th century composers are good because bennevis's point involved comparing the Berg to other 20th century pieces of the same genre.


This isn't about 'we.' This is about you, as I have noticed in the past you expressing distaste regarding a lot of 20th century music and you replied to my comment about people loving Berg's VC by saying they are 'wrong.' So I'm basically wondering if you were serious. Or you can just not answer, also fine by me. I just think tolerance/respect of the views of others is important.

It's just an internet forum. grin

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: bennevis] #2680683
10/08/17 10:38 PM
10/08/17 10:38 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,246
Down Under
currawong Offline
6000 Post Club Member
currawong  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,246
Down Under
Originally Posted by bennevis
But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......
Let's just pretend for a minute we're on the "things that annoy you" thread. Here's one thing that really annoys me. People claiming to know why other people listen to or play certain pieces, and assuming the reason can't be a genuine love for the music but must be some sort of intellectual posing. Feel free to dismiss the Berg concerto. But don't presume to tell me why I love it.


Du holde Kunst...
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680687
10/08/17 10:57 PM
10/08/17 10:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,376
Pacific Northwest, US.
A
argerichfan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
argerichfan  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,376
Pacific Northwest, US.
Nice to see you back! Just ignore Polyphonist.


Jason
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: argerichfan] #2681524
10/12/17 12:04 PM
10/12/17 12:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
P
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Nice to see you back! Just ignore Polyphonist.


Hey thanks man. Hope you've been well smile

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Warner Bros intro
by Lachawiec. 06/24/19 08:39 AM
The only way to read Metronome Markings
by acortot. 06/24/19 07:40 AM
Help Me Decide Between CA78 and VPC1
by xhivo. 06/23/19 08:49 PM
Appreciating William Bolcom
by Qwerty53. 06/23/19 06:41 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics192,679
Posts2,841,465
Members93,693
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1