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Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Jorleyy] #2680627 10/08/17 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jorleyy

Perhaps it is true that many people would react like you, that doesn't mean I am wrong though. IMO those three mentioned composers are vastly overrated.


You do realise that you are implying that the majority of people on this forum have poor taste and, compared with you, an inferior ability to perceive what are positive and negative qualities in music?

Last edited by pianojosh23; 10/08/17 04:31 PM.
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Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: bennevis] #2680631 10/08/17 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
The first Ballade is anything but a masterpiece. It's only popular in PW because most amateurs can actually play bits of it. Even the opening tune.

That's why all beginners think it's a masterpiece.......

I hope this is a joke.

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680636 10/08/17 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Jorleyy

Perhaps it is true that many people would react like you, that doesn't mean I am wrong though. IMO those three mentioned composers are vastly overrated.


You do realise that you are implying that the majority of people on this forum have poor taste and, compared with you, an inferior ability to perceive what are positive and negative qualities in music?

That was not my intention. I just said I regard these composers as overrated. While Berg if anything is underrated. This is just as much an opinion as the opposite opinion.

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Jorleyy] #2680640 10/08/17 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Jorleyy

Perhaps it is true that many people would react like you, that doesn't mean I am wrong though. IMO those three mentioned composers are vastly overrated.


You do realise that you are implying that the majority of people on this forum have poor taste and, compared with you, an inferior ability to perceive what are positive and negative qualities in music?

That was not my intention. I just said I regard these composers as overrated. While Berg if anything is underrated. This is just as much an opinion as the opposite opinion.


It not being your intention does not change the implication. I agree that it is just as much of an opinion: it is a rather cynical and condescending opinion to have though when you consider those who don't hold it, don't you think? Why is it necessary to use the words 'greater' or 'overrated'?

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Jorleyy] #2680643 10/08/17 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Bartóks, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: bennevis] #2680644 10/08/17 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong? Can't we all just express enthusiasm/lack thereof without these annoying value judgements that make a mockery of the perceptions of others? What is the point of all this?

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680645 10/08/17 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Can't we all just express enthusiasm/lack thereof without these annoying value judgements that make a mockery of the perceptions of others? What is the point of all this?

Does anybody need a point to argue pointlessly? grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680646 10/08/17 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Polyphonist] #2680647 10/08/17 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Seriously? I mean, I'm taking it seriously because from what I have observed over time you seem to be allergic to most music written after 1900.

Last edited by pianojosh23; 10/08/17 05:52 PM.
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680648 10/08/17 05:53 PM
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Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Seriously? I mean, I'm taking it seriously because from what I have observed over time you seem to be allergic to most music written after 1900.

Especially during this season.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: Polyphonist] #2680650 10/08/17 05:58 PM
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pianojosh23 Offline
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jorleyy
Berg if anything is underrated.

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Seriously? I mean, I'm taking it seriously because from what I have observed over time you seem to be allergic to most music written after 1900.

Especially during this season.


Which is fine, of course. But I really do hope that you can accept that the Berg is considered to be one of the major works of the last 100 years and that this isn't because people are trying to appear sophisticated, or because it was a century of music with no really talented composers, or whatever the argument may be.

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: JoelW] #2680651 10/08/17 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by bennevis

Really??

His Violin Concerto is the most popular violin concerto of the 20th century, beating the Prokofievs, the Stravinsky, the Korngold, the Szymanowskis, the Walton, the Barber......most of which are better works. But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......

Similarly, pianists play his Piano Sonata for the same reason, whereas Bartók's and Barber's are much better works (and yes, they too have atonal elements, but without being so blatant about it) - but much more difficult.


Aaand this is almost as bad. Now I have to point out that I have known many people that have been obsessed with the Berg VC. Are they all wrong?

Yes.


Seriously? I mean, I'm taking it seriously because from what I have observed over time you seem to be allergic to most music written after 1900.

Especially during this season.


Which is fine, of course. But I really do hope that you can accept that the Berg is considered to be one of the major works of the last 100 years and that this isn't because people are trying to appear sophisticated, or because it was a century of music with no really talented composers, or whatever the argument may be.

I don't understand why you are throwing around this argument about how we don't think any 20th century composers are good because bennevis's point involved comparing the Berg to other 20th century pieces of the same genre.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: JoelW] #2680653 10/08/17 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist

I don't understand why you are throwing around this argument about how we don't think any 20th century composers are good because bennevis's point involved comparing the Berg to other 20th century pieces of the same genre.


This isn't about 'we.' This is about you, as I have noticed in the past you expressing distaste regarding a lot of 20th century music and you replied to my comment about people loving Berg's VC by saying they are 'wrong.' So I'm basically wondering if you were serious. Or you can just not answer, also fine by me. I just think tolerance/respect of the views of others is important.

Last edited by pianojosh23; 10/08/17 06:15 PM.
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680666 10/08/17 07:16 PM
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JoelW Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

I don't understand why you are throwing around this argument about how we don't think any 20th century composers are good because bennevis's point involved comparing the Berg to other 20th century pieces of the same genre.


This isn't about 'we.' This is about you, as I have noticed in the past you expressing distaste regarding a lot of 20th century music and you replied to my comment about people loving Berg's VC by saying they are 'wrong.' So I'm basically wondering if you were serious. Or you can just not answer, also fine by me. I just think tolerance/respect of the views of others is important.

It's just an internet forum. grin

Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: bennevis] #2680683 10/08/17 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
But they don't have the cachet of being considered "atonal" or of using a hackneyed Bach chorale, so violinists who want to show they are 'intellectual' perform it rather than the others. And audiences who want to show their 'intellectual' mettle flock to hear it......
Let's just pretend for a minute we're on the "things that annoy you" thread. Here's one thing that really annoys me. People claiming to know why other people listen to or play certain pieces, and assuming the reason can't be a genuine love for the music but must be some sort of intellectual posing. Feel free to dismiss the Berg concerto. But don't presume to tell me why I love it.


Du holde Kunst...
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: pianojosh23] #2680687 10/08/17 09:57 PM
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Nice to see you back! Just ignore Polyphonist.


Jason
Re: First masterpieces of composers [Re: argerichfan] #2681524 10/12/17 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Nice to see you back! Just ignore Polyphonist.


Hey thanks man. Hope you've been well smile

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