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Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: DoelKees] #2679162
10/02/17 02:36 AM
10/02/17 02:36 AM
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
You haven't told us, based on your 35 years of experience in research, how you manage "bias" in your own investigations.
You keep repeating that like a broken record. It's called a "loaded question", like when I'd ask you "how do you manage beating your wife in your marriage". Obviously I'm not going to answer.
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
You haven't explained how Professor Haye Hinrichsen could look "..for exactly those parameter that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion."
The plain-language summary I posted of that paper by Haye was intended for readers who lack the technical background to figure out what it was really about. I have no intention or ability to simplify it even further if you still don't understand it.

Kees


Kees, do not worry about readers who may lack some technical background, in case wait for them to ask.

Be more careful when you write on a public Forum, your words (quoted above) sound like an absurd insinuation.

If possible, write your own stuff somewhere else.
.


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Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679165
10/02/17 03:45 AM
10/02/17 03:45 AM
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What Alfredo does with tuning a steeper curve when anticipating a pitch settling during a first pass is correct. I do it all the time with minor pitch raises. It involves tuning slightly sharper in the treble by tuning with say beatless 5ths, 12ths or 19th. The second pass will then be settled closer to correct. It is the same in principle as using the overpull with an ETD.

The opposite can happen in the bass. Pitch raises in the treble can actually sharpen the existing bass. Therefore the bass could also be tuned with a steeper curve if it is tuned before the treble.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 10/02/17 03:48 AM.

Chris Leslie
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http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Chris Leslie] #2679170
10/02/17 05:15 AM
10/02/17 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
What Alfredo does with tuning a steeper curve when anticipating a pitch settling during a first pass is correct. I do it all the time with minor pitch raises. It involves tuning slightly sharper in the treble by tuning with say beatless 5ths, 12ths or 19th. The second pass will then be settled closer to correct. It is the same in principle as using the overpull with an ETD.

The opposite can happen in the bass. Pitch raises in the treble can actually sharpen the existing bass. Therefore the bass could also be tuned with a steeper curve if it is tuned before the treble.


Nothing wrong with that for pitch raises, this is all well known. And by the way, initially the preparatory tuning in this thread was not described as a first pass tuning to be completed with all strings (including unisons), followed by a second pass, but was described as the tuning form to be tuned for the middle strings, before the unisons are to be completed.

At the beginning of this thread, Alfredo claimed to tune "apparently pure" twelfths on the middle string from A3 upwards (this IS a pure twelfth ET for the said region if intervals progress correctly; and IF extended coherently, it is also a pure twelfth ET down into the bass region, resp. over the whole range of the piano) here is what he wrote:

Quote

The octave’s beat rate is always relative to all the other intervals beat rate, as in a system of levers, so I draw the form with SBI and RBI. To evaluate the stretch-curve in practice, I use 12ths as a reference (on centre strings). In fact A3-E5 - on centre string – has to be apparently beatless (3:1 ratio). So will be the next chromatic 12ths, when tuning centre strings upwards.

This will produce constant wide 15ths, beating at about 3/2 bps, on centre string. Just unisoning left and right strings will correct these intervals and gain the Chas ET form in stable terms, with the form’s constant and opposite equal beating 12ths and 15ths all along the keyboard.


No distinction here at all that on some different amount of pitch raises one would require something other than pure twelfths to achieve Chas Et finally.

Later, (possibly when he understood that he had a wrong theoretical pure twelfth model in his mind*) he opted to throw pitch raising into his arguments (which indeed requires further stretching curves)... Too me, a simple try to mangle well known pitch settling from pitch raising into the discussion to jump out of the cooking water pot.

The question is: Does a ready tuned equal temperament tuning has a different size of intervals when measuring it on single strings or when measuring it on free unisons (which would be equivalent to tuning middle strings first and completing unisons later, if no pitch raise is required). Those rather small differences (if present at all) caused by jumps in the bridge/soundboard impedance (Weinreich effect) are known to be dealt by aural unison techniques described as "cracking the unisons" or by using advanced tuning software (i know at least one who can just deal with that...) Definitively does a pure twelfth ET on the middle strings not shrink into a Chas ET by just measuring middle strings vs full unisons.

*as we can read in his Chas paper, where he claims that the octave size in pure twelfth ET is (3*2)^(1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc, which is factually wrong, the correct octave size in pure twelfth ET is correctly 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19), 3^(36/19), etc, as i mentioned already.



Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 10/02/17 06:37 AM.
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Chris Leslie] #2679210
10/02/17 10:56 AM
10/02/17 10:56 AM
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
What Alfredo does with tuning a steeper curve when anticipating a pitch settling during a first pass is correct. I do it all the time with minor pitch raises. It involves tuning slightly sharper in the treble by tuning with say beatless 5ths, 12ths or 19th. The second pass will then be settled closer to correct. It is the same in principle as using the overpull with an ETD.

The opposite can happen in the bass. Pitch raises in the treble can actually sharpen the existing bass. Therefore the bass could also be tuned with a steeper curve if it is tuned before the treble.


Thanks, Chris, for your feedback.

Perhaps we should say that there are different methods, different techniques and routines. I believe that those differences will somehow affect the final result. Some factors that come to mind (nothing new):

How the soundboard is loaded with more tension, from bass to treble or from the middle range to the other ranges;
If tuning with a strip-mute or not;
If tuning aurally, with an ETD or hybrid ;
If playing while tuning or not;
If pounding or not;
How the string is put in tension;
How the string is stretched and stabilized on the NSL;
How the pin is set;
The number of intervals used as a check, while expanding;
Unisons as you go or not;
Quality of unisons;
Accuracy, in general.

You mention "minor pitch raises", and if you mean some 3-5 Hz on A4 it would be what I often encounter on pianos that are not tuned every six months, plus weather and bla..bla.. That is quite normal for me (I guess for many colleagues too), and perhaps I too would call that a minor pitch raise, fact is that in those cases I do not tune a first pass and a second pass, I normally tune one pass only. This, on its own, could be enough to explain why I address pitch sagging. Maybe we actually expect the same phenomenon, after the first pass (for you), after the only one pass for me.

The other issue worth mentioning is "orders of magnitude": in my experience, all there is in between minus 5 Hz (on A4) and zero, and above (in case) needs to be considered, even if we would have to call that a very, very tiny pitch raise. In fact, A4 might be at 440, but the rest of the piano? That is what I address as well, so, also in those cases when possibly you would do only one pass, also then I expect a (relative) very, very tiny pitch drop, or sagging.

The difference between a beat less fifth and a very, very slightly narrow fifth is incredibly thin, likewise the difference between a beat-less 12th and a 12th very, very slightly narrow. And it is the same with all the other intervals, either on their own or when we interrelate them together, those are the very very tiny differences I normally address.

Kind regards


Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/02/17 01:59 PM.

alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Bernhard Stopper] #2679244
10/02/17 12:57 PM
10/02/17 12:57 PM
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
What Alfredo does with tuning a steeper curve when anticipating a pitch settling during a first pass is correct. I do it all the time with minor pitch raises. It involves tuning slightly sharper in the treble by tuning with say beatless 5ths, 12ths or 19th. The second pass will then be settled closer to correct. It is the same in principle as using the overpull with an ETD.

The opposite can happen in the bass. Pitch raises in the treble can actually sharpen the existing bass. Therefore the bass could also be tuned with a steeper curve if it is tuned before the treble.


Nothing wrong with that for pitch raises, this is all well known. And by the way, initially the preparatory tuning in this thread was not described as a first pass tuning to be completed with all strings (including unisons), followed by a second pass, but was described as the tuning form to be tuned for the middle strings, before the unisons are to be completed.

At the beginning of this thread, Alfredo claimed to tune "apparently pure" twelfths on the middle string from A3 upwards (this IS a pure twelfth ET for the said region if intervals progress correctly; and IF extended coherently, it is also a pure twelfth ET down into the bass region, resp. over the whole range of the piano) here is what he wrote:

Quote

The octave’s beat rate is always relative to all the other intervals beat rate, as in a system of levers, so I draw the form with SBI and RBI. To evaluate the stretch-curve in practice, I use 12ths as a reference (on centre strings). In fact A3-E5 - on centre string – has to be apparently beatless (3:1 ratio). So will be the next chromatic 12ths, when tuning centre strings upwards.

This will produce constant wide 15ths, beating at about 3/2 bps, on centre string. Just unisoning left and right strings will correct these intervals and gain the Chas ET form in stable terms, with the form’s constant and opposite equal beating 12ths and 15ths all along the keyboard.


No distinction here at all that on some different amount of pitch raises one would require something other than pure twelfths to achieve Chas Et finally.

Later, (possibly when he understood that he had a wrong theoretical pure twelfth model in his mind*) he opted to throw pitch raising into his arguments (which indeed requires further stretching curves)... Too me, a simple try to mangle well known pitch settling from pitch raising into the discussion to jump out of the cooking water pot.

The question is: Does a ready tuned equal temperament tuning has a different size of intervals when measuring it on single strings or when measuring it on free unisons (which would be equivalent to tuning middle strings first and completing unisons later, if no pitch raise is required). Those rather small differences (if present at all) caused by jumps in the bridge/soundboard impedance (Weinreich effect) are known to be dealt by aural unison techniques described as "cracking the unisons" or by using advanced tuning software (i know at least one who can just deal with that...) Definitively does a pure twelfth ET on the middle strings not shrink into a Chas ET by just measuring middle strings vs full unisons.

*as we can read in his Chas paper, where he claims that the octave size in pure twelfth ET is (3*2)^(1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc, which is factually wrong, the correct octave size in pure twelfth ET is correctly 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19), 3^(36/19), etc, as i mentioned already.




Hi Bernhard,

Beyond tuning, temperament theory, practice and whatever we may discuss, I would like you to be polite. Then you can ask whatever you like.

I would like to reassure you about the fact that I do not talk about pitch-raise. I address very very tiny differences, yet aurally detectable. Nobody here is trying to "jump out of the cooking water pot.", I hope you understand.

You quoted a part of the flowchart I shared, I can confirm what I wrote:

"...I draw the form with SBI and RBI."...

That means that I do not use only 12ths.

"...To evaluate the stretch-curve in practice, I use 12ths as a reference (on centre strings). In fact A3-E5 - on centre string – has to be apparently beatless (3:1 ratio). So will be the next chromatic 12ths, when tuning centre strings upwards.".

With that I meant to give a general guideline to those who might want to try the sequence I use and the steps relative to the expansion of the temperament.

Beat-less 12ths as an average-convenient interval and a "reliable check" to be used in combination with 5ths, octaves, double octaves and 17ths. This should reassure you on the fact that I do not expand by using only one interval, like with a spanner; 12ths have the same rank as any other interval and are tuned "temporarily" like all the other intervals. Beat-less 12ths is not the final result I look for, I would like you to bear that in mind.

As for theory, I do not have any issue, I have already replied on that and we would be going in circle.

You mentioned some relevant factors: " ..Those rather small differences (if present at all) caused by jumps in the bridge/soundboard impedance (Weinreich effect) are known to be dealt by aural unison techniques described as "cracking the unisons" or..."...

I would also add "tension balancing in the string lengths", "bridge tilting", "sound-board loading-and-sagging", and perhaps a few other factors related to specific procedures.

In any case, it is those "..rather small differences (if present at all).." that I address, very rarely could I proceed on center strings and have the pleasure to hear what I like, there and then, only on pianos that were being used in competitions, tunings that I would refine day after day.

Perhaps I ought to repeat that between a beat-less 5th and a 5th with a tiny tiny narrow beat the difference is incredibly small, likewise between a beat-less 12th and a 12th with a faintly narrow beat. Those are the differences I address.

I get the impression that your idea is that I actually tune what you are spreading, i.e. a "pure 12ths" stretch scheme (where 12ths have a "minimum amount of beating"). Perhaps I can reassure you saying that the stretch scheme that I adopt in practice is "s" variable (see the Chas algorithm): I may decide to use beat-less 5ths when I expand on middle-strings, or beat-less 12ths or a stretch that might be more similar to pure 19ths or anything in between two of those schemes: the stretch will depend on some factors that need to be managed attentively, in order to get as close as possible to our (final) target.
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/02/17 01:10 PM.

alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679296
10/02/17 04:02 PM
10/02/17 04:02 PM
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Gosh, folks, I see no coherency in what Alfredo is saying about how or even what he strives to tune. It could be pure or tempered anything and done in any matter whatever! And so it could not possibly have anything to do with the Chas theory he has written about, which could only pertain to harmonic tones, and not a piano anyway. It is all nebulous and disconnected...

Sorry, Toni, I was really looking for something, anything, that could be of use to you, but there just isn't. frown


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: UnrightTooner] #2679324
10/02/17 05:09 PM
10/02/17 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Gosh, folks, I see no coherency in what Alfredo is saying about how or even what he strives to tune. It could be pure or tempered anything and done in any matter whatever! And so it could not possibly have anything to do with the Chas theory he has written about, which could only pertain to harmonic tones, and not a piano anyway. It is all nebulous and disconnected...

Sorry, Toni, I was really looking for something, anything, that could be of use to you, but there just isn't. frown


Ehi, Jeff, that's nice... do you remember when I said that you were almost there? Well, you are even closer now.

Look, this is quite correct, .."..It could be pure or tempered anything".

On the other hand, this is not correct, .."..done in any matter whatever!.."...

Selfish as I may be, I will explain you a couple of other things, I am sure you will grasp the concept even better, in time.

RBI's can only be (and sound) "tempered", also 4ths and 5ths can only be (and sound) tempered, please note, to some extent.

When you tune 5ths, interrelating them to other already-tuned intervals, if you are tuning middle strings only - say - from D4-A4 up towards the treble, make 5ths sound closer and closer to beat-less. Check them carefully, because 5ths are crucial when playing melodically.

Octaves too need to sound tempered, though in the mid-register you ought to tune them so "compact" that their very slow beating can hardly be perceived.

Tuning center strings,12ths and double octaves, together with RBI's, octaves and fifths, will indicate if your tuning curve is getting too "salty" or too "loose".

If, on the other hand, you have understood "..done in any matter whatever!..", hmm.. perhaps you need to tell me where you read that or double-check your bias and make sure that it is still... human smile

Oh... C'mon... I am joking, I know you were only being... Jeff.
.


alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Bernhard Stopper] #2679384
10/02/17 09:38 PM
10/02/17 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
*as we can read in his Chas paper, where he claims that the octave size in pure twelfth ET is (3*2)^(1/31), (6*2)^(1/43) etc, which is factually wrong, the correct octave size in pure twelfth ET is correctly 3^(12/19), 3^(24/19), 3^(36/19), etc, as i mentioned already.
Interestingly, that elementary error has not been corrected in that chas paper. I guess he doesn't care that it's wrong.

Still, being wrong is better than being meaningless, like when he writes:

"The fundamentals, with the differences related to harmonic partials 3 and 4, determine helixes of differences on a third plane. These helixes cause the torsion in this kind of set. The equal proportion 2:1, with its monotone differences curves, blocks this phenomenon."

Kees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: UnrightTooner] #2679401
10/03/17 12:23 AM
10/03/17 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Gosh, folks, I see no coherency in what Alfredo is saying about how or even what he strives to tune. It could be pure or tempered anything and done in any matter whatever! And so it could not possibly have anything to do with the Chas theory he has written about, which could only pertain to harmonic tones, and not a piano anyway. It is all nebulous and disconnected...

Sorry, Toni, I was really looking for something, anything, that could be of use to you, but there just isn't. frown

If you search pianoworld for the many previous chas threads (google chas pianoworld) and scan them it should be obvious that this "theory" has been thoroughly debunked many years ago. I guess creating new "chas" threads not referencing all these past refutations is Alfredo's way of keeping the myth alive.

So we are asked to believe we have a theoretical chas theory, a practical chas theory, which is something completely different and undefined, then recognize theory and practice are "completely different" (which is nonsense), and then realize the theory of the practical chas is also just a pre-form or whatever, and its theory is also just theory and so on and on until someone falls for all the gobbledygook, tunes a piano decently after reading some of the chas stuff, then claims it is a"chas" tuning.

And anyone stating this or similar things gets accused of "disrespect".

Kees

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679410
10/03/17 03:36 AM
10/03/17 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso



Ehi, Jeff, that's nice... do you remember when I said that you were almost there? Well, you are even closer now.

...


No, I am much further. I am realizing there is a more disturbing possibility than you being deliberately deceitful. You may be mentally deranged, truly believing and proselytizing the irrational. I am going to distance myself. It is not something I handle well. It gives me the whillies. Farewell, Alfredo.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Bernhard Stopper] #2679466
10/03/17 12:50 PM
10/03/17 12:50 PM
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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Hi Bernhard,

Coming back home, I saw that you had posted. Where is your post gone?

Cheers


alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679612
10/04/17 06:35 AM
10/04/17 06:35 AM
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Hi Bernhard,

I would like to make sure that you have actually understood why your whole review was erroneous.

Let me guess what happened then. In the Chas paper, section 4.5, you read this:

"... In distances of octaves, (5*2)^(1/40), (10*2)^(1/52) etc. this ratio modifies towards 2^(1/12)."

For some reason you misunderstood and thought that I was addressing the scale octave_values relative to those ratios.

Actually, I was addressing different scale "pure" ratios, in order to check how they progress, octave after octave.

So, there I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1.

I have also re-checked Table 6 and section 4.6 and I confirm, all the figures and the relative graphs are correct.

Please, let me know if now you have grasped those sections. If not, I did a screen-shot of your latest post, the one you deleted, and we could look at those individual points together.

I am sorry, you thought that wrong formulas could take me to wrong theoretical conclusions and to wrong expectations in my practice.

Have a close look also at Table 6, those comparisons are really eloquent.

Regards, a.c.
.
G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf
.


alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679656
10/04/17 11:23 AM
10/04/17 11:23 AM
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Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Hi Alfredo,

just to understand your interpretation of "pure scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Chas does not, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 ?

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679674
10/04/17 01:12 PM
10/04/17 01:12 PM
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Sorry, Bernhard, what are "pure scaleETs"? What do you mean? Pure-ratio ET scales?


alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679675
10/04/17 01:40 PM
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Just to understand your interpretation of "pure ratio scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679676
10/04/17 02:02 PM
10/04/17 02:02 PM
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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I do not think that giving an "interpretation" was my point, the results I reported are numerical evidences.

Those pure ratios derive from the harmonic series and their individual scale position is used as the exponent.

I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation. Would you?

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/04/17 02:21 PM.

alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679683
10/04/17 02:27 PM
10/04/17 02:27 PM
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Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I do not think that giving an "interpretation" was my point, the results I reported are numerical evidences.

Those pure ratios derive from the harmonic series and their individual scale position is used as the exponent.



Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679691
10/04/17 02:59 PM
10/04/17 02:59 PM
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alfredo capurso Offline OP
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I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation. Would you?


alfredo
Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso] #2679695
10/04/17 03:13 PM
10/04/17 03:13 PM
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Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I would not know how to address a comparison of that kind between one "pure" ratio and the Chas ratio, as the latter is not "pure", and it is derived from a double exponentiation. Would you?


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?

Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Bernhard Stopper] #2679700
10/04/17 04:09 PM
10/04/17 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Just to understand your interpretation of "pure ratio scaleETs" vs "Chas ET" correctly:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

I showed the formulas for calculating the ET scale ratios relative to partials 3, 5, 6 and 10 and correctly reported that those "pure" scale ratios, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1


Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
Ok, understood, but to understand even more, could please first just answer my simple question:

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?
Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?


Come on Alfredo, as Chas inventor you have the expertise to answer me this simple question.

Does Chas, octave after octave, converge on ratio 2:1 or not?

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