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Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678325
09/28/17 10:59 AM
09/28/17 10:59 AM
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Posts: 7,603
Northern England.
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Northern England.
There was once a tourist who enjoyed his favourite food in this back street within the confines of Madrid. They were sweetbreads, and they were delicious; fresh and cooked to perfection.
On this occasion, he ambled in, sat down, and contemplated his usual treat in advance.

But when the dish arrived, the offering was smaller than usual. Much. But he ate and enjoyed them nonetheless, since he was an amiable guy, understanding of the pressures businesses can find themselves in on occasions.

When the proprietor brought the bill, he politely asked THE question and received the following response;
"Amigo!" he shrugged "This sometimes happens! Sad to say, but sometimes . . . the bull . . . .he wins"


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
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Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678330
09/28/17 11:27 AM
09/28/17 11:27 AM
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Posts: 1,007
Chicago
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jjo Offline
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I fully support the moderator's actions. If I was running a site like this (and I'm so thankful that some people are), I would fully err on the side of deleting any thread that I thought was in the slightest way questionable. It's a judgment call they had to make, and given the time they put into this site, I gladly leave those judgments to them.

Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: jjo] #2678340
09/28/17 11:49 AM
09/28/17 11:49 AM
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To me the benefits of this forum are:

1). It's friendly. Newbies can ask questions and not get blown to smithereens.
2). It's sometimes very knowledgable and helpful.
3). This forum has a great relationship with Kawai and with Kawai James. I only wish that the other major manufacturers would dedicate paid resources to giving us the info we need.

Yes, Kawai is a major friend of this forum. They show respect for us by continuing to support Kawai James. Do I have to point out that James is not hammering us with pro-Kawai B.S. His posts are professional, balanced, and often praise the good qualities of his competitors products. What else does anyone want?

Why is wrong for the moderators to show some of that respect back to Kawai? Seems to me it's a friendly and helpful response. It's not like they deleted all the stupid ugly threads where some Kawai owner titles it "Kawai Products Are All Junk!" only to find out that they never contacted their dealer regarding a problem. There have been lots of these, and they haven't been deleted. So what's the problem here?

Sometimes it's appropriate to 'ban' folks. Too bad, but true.

Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678345
09/28/17 12:09 PM
09/28/17 12:09 PM
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Virginia, USA
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Hopefully we can get the threads restored after the product release. Please be kind to one another, sometimes its way to easy say things on the internet we wouldn't dare say to someones face.
There is too much strife everywhere you go. Peace be with you all!


A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678353
09/28/17 01:04 PM
09/28/17 01:04 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,810
Georgia, USA
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Also, keep in mind the moderators here are volunteers. Some of us are giving them an AWFUL lot of work to do for zero payment...


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678354
09/28/17 01:18 PM
09/28/17 01:18 PM
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gvfarns Offline
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I'm surprised the forum has changed so much since the last time I was here. Historically there has never been any moderation of the digital piano forum. Not any. Theoretically the owner was the moderator but he didn't really participate in this forum. The thing is, it worked just fine and is one reason this forum has been successful. Occasionally in any forum there are immature people, but this forum has very few. And they don't stick around long. The lack of moderation has historically allowed people to be honest and frank and didn't impede the flow or neutrality of the information. That's what makes the forum interesting. If threads that reveal something that was accidentally leaked or threads that say report negative things about a piano or manufacturer are locked or deleted, then the forum becomes a much less valuable resource. It ceases to be neutral and to be the best source for information and discussion. Additionally, when you treat people like children, they behave that way. That's what has happened here. The introduction of someone you can whine to when you don't like what someone else says and a moderator figure who will come in and take the role of a superior has reduced the level and quality of the discourse here noticeably.

Quote
Why is wrong for the moderators to show some of that respect back to Kawai? Seems to me it's a friendly and helpful response


Kawai_James has always been very objective in his comments and has never taken offense nor tried to get Kawai information or complaints deleted. That's because he's mature and understands the nature of this forum. I don't think we should assume it is politeness toward him or his employer to delete a thread of speculation and reporting of information accidentally posted on a website. I can't imagine either him or Kawai requesting that those threads be locked or deleted, because they are neither naive nor immature enough to do so.

We were better off without moderation. The owner used to delete egregious things, like threats or profanity, but otherwise it was a forum where speech about pianos was free. I'm sorry to see that has changed.

Last edited by gvfarns; 09/28/17 01:33 PM.
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: terminaldegree] #2678356
09/28/17 01:22 PM
09/28/17 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Also, keep in mind the moderators here are volunteers. Some of us are giving them an AWFUL lot of work to do for zero payment...


Volunteering is only a virtue when it does more good than harm.

Last edited by gvfarns; 09/28/17 01:30 PM.
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: gvfarns] #2678359
09/28/17 01:40 PM
09/28/17 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by gvfarns
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Also, keep in mind the moderators here are volunteers. Some of us are giving them an AWFUL lot of work to do for zero payment...


Volunteering is only a virtue when it does more good than harm.


Which in this case, they undoubtedly do in my view. There is no such thing as absolute freedom. Some people want a forum free of moderation, some people want a forum free of personal abuse. Until all people are guaranteed to behave well, you can't have both unfortunately. The forum owner has decided, as he is absolutely entitled to given that this is his forum on which we are guests, that he prefers the latter. As is happens, I think his decision is absolutely correct. You may disagree, and I respect your view. Ultimately, though, it's his decision, and it's been made and we must all accept that.

For what it's worth, I think the moderation on this forum is excellent. It's very light touch compared to most moderated forums; the Kawai leak thread was the first and only thread I've seen deleted here, and there is in general a high level of tolerance and intervention is clearly a last resort. The mods are very far from trigger happy and I honestly have seen no evidence of censorship (Kawai have probably come in for more stick here than anyone else, actually). Conversely, when the mods do get involved, they generally defuse tension, warn rather than ban people where possible, and basically take a tolerant approach which is very respectful of differences of opinion.

Regrettably, there is personal abuse on the forum occasionally, and when it gets out of hand the moderators step in quietly and efficiently and deal with it. I think they should applauded for giving their time freely to do so and from my perspective, I'm glad they're here.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: karvala] #2678361
09/28/17 01:50 PM
09/28/17 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by karvala
For what it's worth, I think the moderation on this forum is excellent. It's very light touch compared to most moderated forums; the Kawai leak thread was the first and only thread I've seen deleted here, and there is in general a high level of tolerance and intervention is clearly a last resort. The mods are very far from trigger happy and I honestly have seen no evidence of censorship (Kawai have probably come in for more stick here than anyone else, actually). Conversely, when the mods do get involved, they generally defuse tension, warn rather than ban people where possible, and basically take a tolerant approach which is very respectful of differences of opinion.


This is also the first time I have seen this level of moderation in 10 years of participation. However, the effect of moderation was the opposite of what you have described. Far from being diffused, the tension was ratcheted up and harm was done as evidenced by the threads complaining about the moderation and the increase in personal, off-topic discussion and threats (from the moderator) that now pollute the forum. What was done does not conform to the "clubhouse rules" in the sense that the rules are defined by the way things have always been here. We have always speculated about future products, complained about existing ones, and posted any information we could legally get for discussion. No law and no reasonable ethical code was broken here.

Remember, the threads were closed because the moderator, for some reason, thought this is not the right place to examine and speculate about possible leaks of future product information. But that's exactly what we do here. And in another thread people weren't being respectful about each other's opinions of PianoTeq. Also completely normal here--that's our most controversial topic. They were not closed over abusive or offensive behavior in the ordinary sense of those words and the moderation was not at all light-handed.

If this case were as you described, I'd also be grateful for the moderation. But it was not. Before today my opinion was the same as yours. But this moderator changed that.

Last edited by gvfarns; 09/28/17 02:07 PM.
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678373
09/28/17 02:42 PM
09/28/17 02:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 766
Melville Saskatchewan
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FrankCox Online content
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I have two comments to make about this.

First, with regard to the original "leak", it continues to amaze me that there are a vanishingly small number of people who understand a very simple principle: If you don't want information on the Internet, don't put that information on the Internet.

If I need to provide confidential information to someone over-the-wire, I encrypt it. Encryption technology is easy to use and widely available and failure to encrypt confidential information for transmission is at the least negligent, doubly so for a corporation who should have an IT department to advise on and implement such things.

Second, removal of this information has accomplished two things. It has engaged the Streisand effect since folks like me who were not originally following that thread are now wondering what the fuss is about. And it makes Kawai look bad and heavy-handed. Rather than taking advantage of the excitement and interest that the folks here have in their new product, bringing out the censor's hammer and removing the discussion from public view leads people to wonder what they are trying to hide and makes the company look bad and heavy-handed. As an analogy, if I see a wonderful painting for sale on a street corner and tell someone else, "Look at this wonderful painting", and the artist runs up and punches me in the nose, how likely am I to recommend his paintings to all of my friends after that?

Ultimately, whoever is responsible for removal of the information in question has very successfully managed to turn a positive buzz around their forthcoming products into a negative one.


If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
We got both kinds of music: Country and Western!
Casio Celviano AP-650
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: gvfarns] #2678374
09/28/17 02:47 PM
09/28/17 02:47 PM
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Posts: 3,717
Suffolk, United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by gvfarns
This is also the first time I have seen this level of moderation in 10 years of participation.


Your posts have been thought-provoking gv and I have to say that I agree with you completely in all you've had to say about the issue. The moderator has appeared more times in the last year than the rest of the history of the forum combined.

Purely a personal observation but I find the tone of the moderator's posts to be absolutely consistent with that of a somewhat abrupt and superior-sounding self-appointed adjudicator, talking down to participants from on high. You are quite right, there was such a 'light touch' before but now it feels like any one of us is one post away from a permanent ban. The place is diminished by such an atmosphere because it is inhibiting.

If I never appear again you'll know that my comments got me banned! The sad thing is I have genuinely considered that as a possible outcome following this criticism.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678380
09/28/17 03:17 PM
09/28/17 03:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,237
Wales
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Wales
What a shame! I only post here on the odd occasion these days, but I'm disappointed that this has happened here. A few years ago I had a run-in with the owners/moderators of another keyboard forum due to their deletion of posts relating to a leaked Yamaha release. Although I understood that the owners had every right to run the site however they liked, and that the leak may have caused difficulties for individuals, the episode left a sour taste in my mouth. It suggested that the corporate voice could override the individual member, and that censorship could be used to control legitimate discussion.

I have sympathy for the mods here, but is it really necessary to delete threads that simply reflect members' enthusiasm for new products, and for information obtained from publicly available sources?


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678381
09/28/17 03:21 PM
09/28/17 03:21 PM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
Hey vox. Good to see you! What with you and gv's reappearance all we need is snazzy pete, Melodialworks Music, Piano Zac and pv88 to return and there could be a proper reunion!


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678382
09/28/17 03:21 PM
09/28/17 03:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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And gyro....how could I forget gyro!


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678383
09/28/17 03:27 PM
09/28/17 03:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,237
Wales
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Oh my! Gyro!!!

Thanks, Steve, and good to talk with you, too!


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678388
09/28/17 03:56 PM
09/28/17 03:56 PM
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Glad to see the crew. I don't see dewster, though. frown

Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678390
09/28/17 03:59 PM
09/28/17 03:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 104
Shelter Cove, CA, USA
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I posted the links to Kawai’s test site..

I did not post the links to in any way harm Kawai, on the contrary, vibrant discussion and building anticipation is a boon to a company.

Savvy tech companies leak information (even misdirecting information) for just this purpose and I did not presume to know why those links were publicly available.

I private-messaged the moderator making clear that I found those links using a publicly available search engine and that no hacking or illegal activity was involved.

The moderator was extremely kind and courteous in our communications. She acknowledged that using that language was a mistake and remedied it.

It was clear to me that her intentions were good. Mistakes happen.

As for removing the threads, intentions and reasoning could have been communicated more clearly… but life’s not perfect; especially under stress. Hopefully next time will be better should it happen again.

I look forward to Kawai’s successful product launch and Piano World’s vibrant discussion, all in the spirit of continual improvement.

Cheers


Kawai MP11SE | K&M 18950 | Pianoteq Pro (Bleuthner, Steingraeber, Petrof, Bechstein, Steinway B & D, Electric Pianos, K) | Sennheiser HD600 | Sony WH-1000XM3 (using wired) for noise isolation
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: gvfarns] #2678391
09/28/17 04:09 PM
09/28/17 04:09 PM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by gvfarns
Glad to see the crew. I don't see dewster, though. frown



I feel guilty. How could I forget Dewster, esteemed creator of the DPBSD!?


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678394
09/28/17 04:22 PM
09/28/17 04:22 PM
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Just to share my view as a newbie.
This forum, the Digital subforum, should be useful to understand better the digital piano equipments and asking for advice. It should also be useful to understand better how to use and configure all this hardware and software.
I would expect many passionate people helping each other using digital pianos and software at their best, like in the adult beginner forums for the learning path.
Sadly, look at the PT6 thread, it's only a war, very few sharing their preferred settings or hints. The majority sharing only their subjective opinions (not facts or practical advices) positive or negative on sound quality or hardware performance.
The most of the topics are about "which is better" and "new gears". Then, after somebody as bought the dp, is over. Figure out yourself how to use it at its best, it's not interesting.
Some deleted topics on possible new gear are the mainstream.
Is this the mission of this forum? Sad.

Re: Closing threads - we're not idiots! New Kawai soon released. [Re: kapelli] #2678395
09/28/17 04:23 PM
09/28/17 04:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 766
Melville Saskatchewan
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FrankCox Online content
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Quote
I private-messaged the moderator making clear that I found those links using a publicly available search engine and that no hacking or illegal activity was involved.


So in addition to having the publicly available information that you were kind enough to provide censored, you were also libelled for posting it? frown

Quote
The moderator was extremely kind and courteous in our communications. She acknowledged that using that language was a mistake and remedied it.


I'm pleased that you were satisfied with her response, but really... that makes this entire bad situation look even worse. And I am truly sorry to hear this.

Perhaps someone who's a moderator and who is apparently libelling the folks who use this forum should have her moderating status removed either temporarily or permanently, and enjoy a time-out period of her own to to provide her with an opportunity to reflect on her actions and hopefully resolve to do better.

Speaking for myself only, unless something happens to change my mind in the future (and I really don't know what that would be) I think I'll be removing Kawai from any consideration for future piano purchases or upgrades. There are many other manufacturers of high quality products to choose from.

Last edited by FrankCox; 09/28/17 04:31 PM.

If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
We got both kinds of music: Country and Western!
Casio Celviano AP-650
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