2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
51 members (24000rpm, 1957, Chris888, ando, Animisha, CianistAndPomposer, dhull100, clothearednincompo, 11 invisible), 511 guests, and 457 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,274
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,274
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Playing devil's advocate for a minute (or maybe just to be contrary), I think Roland's actually been doing quite a bit to push the industry forward lately.

1. They're aggressively pushing their top action down the chain to their more mid and low-level products. What you get on the LX-17/LX-7 is the same action on the RD-2000, FP-90, and now the HP-601. Plus, the action (though not a major change from their last one) is just a couple of years old. No real stagnation here.

2. They're doing more than any other mainstream hardware maker in terms of state of the art tone generation. SuperNatural introduced a hybrid modeling approach to piano, and then pushed it further with full modeling. It's also the only DP tech I'm aware of with unlimited polyphony (for what it's worth). I still don't know if the "V-Piano tech" in the RD-2000 is just a marketing change from SN modeling, maybe that's what you mean by newer fancy names, but there's little question that Roland's move to modeling is quite a different play than what Kawai/Yamaha/Casio/Nord/etc. are doing. And SN's fully modeled, full polyphony tone generator was released just a couple of years ago too, along with the PHA-50 action.

As far as the cadence of new tech, that's all pretty recent and I'm not quite sure what more we should expect!



Quite so!!!

1) Roland is in quite a position: the only top firm to be pioneers in piano modelling---out there being competitive with Pianoteq!
2) Arguably, the amplification systems in Rolands top digital pianos---the V-piano grand and the LX17---are some of the best.
3) Roland has taken a clear second place in the tier below hybrid digital piano action stakes---an action that really connects well to the modelled piano!

The only think Roland can do to improve their positions are:
1) Improve still further the amp/speaker systems
2) Work on a better (non-acoustic action) piano action to out-compete the Grand Feel II action.
3) Start to fully model the following sounds
a) All organs
i) electric organ types
ii)) All theatre organ types
iii) All church organ types
b) Synths
c) E-pianos
d) Percussion (vibraphones etc)
e) Strings
f) Brass
g) Guitar & Bass

4) Improving existing modelling to keep pace with Pianoteq.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,287
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,287
Originally Posted by Gombessa
...They're doing more than any other mainstream hardware maker in terms of state of the art tone generation. SuperNatural introduced a hybrid modeling approach to piano, and then pushed it further with full modeling. It's also the only DP tech I'm aware of with unlimited polyphony...


Modelling. Sampling. A combined approach. The only thing that matters is how it sounds. Roland has nailed its colours to the mast with full modelling but it just still doesn't sound right to my ears. Responsive, yes. But soulless.

And Dexibell has unlimited polyphony by the way.

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 202
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 202
In a previous high-tech company I worked for (as Marketing Sr. Director), we would joke with each other about the yearly necessity of creating a marketing phrase to capture whatever our engineering teams had newly developed. The one I like best, and I think suits Roland (or almost anybody else) is:

YESTERDAY'S TECHNOLOGY.... TOMORROW!

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,355
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,355
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Gombessa
...They're doing more than any other mainstream hardware maker in terms of state of the art tone generation. SuperNatural introduced a hybrid modeling approach to piano, and then pushed it further with full modeling. It's also the only DP tech I'm aware of with unlimited polyphony...


Modelling. Sampling. A combined approach. The only thing that matters is how it sounds. Roland has nailed its colours to the mast with full modelling but it just still doesn't sound right to my ears. Responsive, yes. But soulless.

And Dexibell has unlimited polyphony by the way.


Didn't know about Dexibell, thanks!


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,287
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,287
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Didn't know about Dexibell, thanks!


Quad core processor. Sampled but with modelled elements. 15 seconds of original waveforms. 24 bit. Unlimited polyphony. Bluetooth audio with wi-fi onboard (but yet to be activated in the software). Interesting products but no one talks about them.

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,511
T
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,511
Originally Posted by Chris Pringle
Roland has always been about being pure digital and I doubt they will abandon that path. They would need to find a very credible acoustic piano company to partner with to give credibility to the key action - a la Casio/Bechstein. I don't believe this will ahppen. Instead, they will continue to refine their digital piano key actions that can later be passed on to lower end digital piano lines, as they have traditionally done. Hybrid pianos are great but they are not very portable, still require adjustments every 3-5 years, and keys can still have issues in humid climates. This whole notion seems to contradict the philosophy behind Roland digital instruments.


I would have to dig around for it, but I seem to recall Jay, when he was working for Roland, saying that Roland was developing very rugged keybeds that felt and played well, rather than wanting to use a keybed from another manufacturer. He cited the fact that, at the time, apparently Roland had a contract with schools across Canada to put their pianos in the schools. As a result, those keybeds (PHAIII at the time) had many hundreds, if not thousands of hours being pounded on by students and kids, and there was no report of them breaking down. That gave me extra confidence in the keybed in my then new V-Grand, not that I have had any reason to question Roland's "built to last" philosophy.

So, I believe your post is likely correct according to that. If Jay still reads this forum, he can jump in and correct me if I am mistaken. The post was in that really long thread about new (at the time) Roland DPs. It got to be something along the lines of 185 pages, depending on your browser, and it still pops up from time to time.

Tony


Roland V-Grand
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,225
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,225
Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by Chris Pringle
Roland has always been about being pure digital and I doubt they will abandon that path. They would need to find a very credible acoustic piano company to partner with to give credibility to the key action - a la Casio/Bechstein. I don't believe this will ahppen. Instead, they will continue to refine their digital piano key actions that can later be passed on to lower end digital piano lines, as they have traditionally done. Hybrid pianos are great but they are not very portable, still require adjustments every 3-5 years, and keys can still have issues in humid climates. This whole notion seems to contradict the philosophy behind Roland digital instruments.


I would have to dig around for it, but I seem to recall Jay, when he was working for Roland, saying that Roland was developing very rugged keybeds that felt and played well, rather than wanting to use a keybed from another manufacturer. He cited the fact that, at the time, apparently Roland had a contract with schools across Canada to put their pianos in the schools. As a result, those keybeds (PHAIII at the time) had many hundreds, if not thousands of hours being pounded on by students and kids, and there was no report of them breaking down. That gave me extra confidence in the keybed in my then new V-Grand, not that I have had any reason to question Roland's "built to last" philosophy.

So, I believe your post is likely correct according to that. If Jay still reads this forum, he can jump in and correct me if I am mistaken. The post was in that really long thread about new (at the time) Roland DPs. It got to be something along the lines of 185 pages, depending on your browser, and it still pops up from time to time.

Tony


Quite correct Tony! (Happened to be reading the forum today)

And despite my best efforts, the longest lasting school that was still completely on old tech before I left the company, is STILL USING Roland HP-2 and HP-3 pianos (from 2001-02) without a SINGLE problem to date. These keybeds far pre-date the PHA-III. But they're still ticking in spite of an average of 7-8 hours per day, 6 days a week use by students of all ages and skill levels. Some of the factory Q&A testing done to date, has included doing 10,000,000 actuations per key on the actions. Smashing them with a weight, dropping pianos with and without packaging. Shake testing to simulate truck transport. All to develop reliable keybeds that last.

Jay

Last edited by JayGVan; 09/15/17 06:44 PM.

Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 619
F
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
F
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 619
10 million keypresses? How many years of playing is that? :p

My computer keyboard (Cherry MX Green) has an MTBF of 50 million hits per key. I type at a speed of about 80-100 words per minute (let's say, 90 on average), which is 540 characters per minute, and 259.200 characters in an 8 hour working day. The keyboard has 104 keys, so each key gets 2.492 hits per day (if all used equally; I know that isn't the case). Just lets say, 2500 to make counting easy.

If I'd pound 8 hours a day at this keyboard, 7 days a week, it would last 20.000 days, or 54.7 years before the first key fails.

In short, I'll not be able to outtype this keyboard before I die, if everything goes well. Even if a Roland piano would 'only' support 10 million hits per key before it fails (at a speed of playing 540 notes per minute, for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week), it would still last 10.94 years.

Great. That's longer than my LX-17's 10 year warranty. I'm sure that around that time, I'll be probably replacing it with a digital piano that has a real grand action built in... or maybe even an acoustic if my environment allows it, so I never have to upgrade again. (If that happens, I'll probably keep the LX-17 until it dies somehow, for silent practice.)

Last edited by Falsch; 09/15/17 07:32 PM.

Kawai Novus NV-10 | Pianoteq 7 (Kremsegg 1 & 2, Ruckers Harpsichord, KIVIR)
Intel NUC i3-6100U, 8GB, SSD | iPad Pro 12.9 2018 | forScore
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,225
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,225
540 notes per minute? I WANT TO MEET the person that can play the same key 9 times a second. :P

Jay


Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,895
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,895
Originally Posted by JayGVan
540 notes per minute? I WANT TO MEET the person that can play the same key 9 times a second. :P Jay

And I want to see that piano they are playing where the same key can be played 9 times a second ... wow


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,287
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,287
13.75 times per second. The person. And the piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLgtqDkapQU

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,895
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,895
So that's the guy who keeps needing to replace his key actions ... thumb


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,875
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,875
Originally Posted by JayGVan
540 notes per minute? I WANT TO MEET the person that can play the same key 9 times a second. :P



Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,790
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,790
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Didn't know about Dexibell, thanks!


Quad core processor. Sampled but with modelled elements. 15 seconds of original waveforms. 24 bit. Unlimited polyphony. Bluetooth audio with wi-fi onboard (but yet to be activated in the software). Interesting products but no one talks about them.


Well I was one of the first to dismiss them after trying one in a store some time ago. The key action felt very stiff to me and made me miss a lot of notes and I even felt embarrassed as though I was some piano newbie. Can't remember if it really sounded good though, but I remember having to wait probably a minute for it to boot. I'll have to try it again though, maybe one can get used to the action.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Built in speaker or external steron peakers
by Jojovan - 04/18/21 07:09 AM
Heintzman at the White House?
by Retsacnal - 04/18/21 12:43 AM
Yamaha p45 vs YDP 144 vs Roland rp102
by Shortshoppy - 04/17/21 11:48 PM
Action Regulation on 1982 Steinway B
by Harpuia - 04/17/21 11:34 PM
Estonia pianos though the years?
by PeterV73 - 04/17/21 10:09 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,370
Posts3,083,716
Members101,227
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5