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Re: An invisible music tip - ear. [Re: PianoStudent88] #2652267
06/10/17 03:40 PM
06/10/17 03:40 PM
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Nahum Offline
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88

I mentioned above that when I'm playing an instrument, (note) names are close to the surface for me. In contrast, when I sing I have no names at all. For most of my life, I thought of this as one of the striking differences between playing an instrument vs. singing. It was only in my forties that I learned that for some people the two experiences can be much closer for other musicians than they are for me: for example, I can hear a melody and then sing it, but I can't reproduce it on my instrument without a lot of trial and error. But many other musicians can hear a melody and reproduce it on their instrument with as much ease as the singing reproduction is for me.


PianoStudent88, do you have experience reproducing your speech melody on the instrument?It sounds strange ; no one has ever told us about this in solfeggio classes, as if this never existed. But it takes a story from ancient African culture, where a representative instrument was talking drum- Djembe , which reproduced the rhythmic speech of the performer on it. In the world musical history there are an infinite number of examples of literal reproduction of human speech on musical instruments, mainly in folk music of different countries, in jazz and rock music. Academic musical education struck out this phenomenon completely.
Any teacher will say that the human voice is the first musical instrument, and the selected musical instrument is the second. Naturally, it is required to unite them; But on what principles? Go from the human voice, or from the repertoire for a musical instrument? This is where you need to look for the reasons for the duality that you mention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrgveUpwCnM



Last edited by Nahum; 06/10/17 03:43 PM.
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Re: An invisible music tip - ear. [Re: ZeroZero] #2653037
06/13/17 08:59 AM
06/13/17 08:59 AM
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A few thoughts....

Regarding learning to "hear" or "auditize" musical pitches and/or melodies, Arnold Schoenberg wrote a method book, "Preliminary Exercises in Counterpoint" when he was teaching at USC in California circa 1940's. I stumbled on this book in a store about 35 years ago. The book uses what is called "species counterpoint". I worked through 2 part writing and stalled out at some point in the 3 part writing. At the time, working with the exercises, I could hear my perceptions sharpen with regards to "hearing" lines moving against each other.

Another less formal method, from a different angle, I've used more recently is what I call "tone matching". Playing a song on YouTube (with decent quality speakers attached to the computer), and stopping the song using the mouse (placed close to my right hand) and finding the pitch on the piano. I used this method to figure out "Alfie" and "Promises Promises" by Burt Bacharach. I also used this method to transcribe a couple of mid-1970's Keith Jarrett songs - "Mysteries" and "Le Mistral". This method is somewhat like working out a crossword puzzle, bit by bit. Analyzing these songs I mentioned is not for beginners.

But...
Playing along with YouTube could be a valuable tool for simpler songs. I'm thinking of a band like Creedence Clearwater Revival where the bass usually plays the root and 5th and the chord changes are all diatonic. Many Beatles songs offer many potential lessons in practical ear training. I have, at times while driving in my car, sung along with McCartney';s bass lines, visualizing a piano keyboard with the notes playing in the key of my choice.

Schoenberg's Counterpoint book
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/preliminary-exercises-in-counterpoint-sheet-music/7464464

Re: An invisible music tip - ear. [Re: indigo_dave] #2653044
06/13/17 09:20 AM
06/13/17 09:20 AM
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Nahum Offline
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indigo_dave , I was born with a good relative ear. Since age of 22 I began intensively do transcriptions from recordings of jazz solos and chords of different performers and instruments. At the age of 34, I discovered an absolute hearing, although not so stable as the congenital one. My former student Tamir Hendelman recommends cancel the notation phase and directly transfer to instrument.

Re: An invisible music tip - ear. [Re: Nahum] #2675320
09/14/17 06:24 PM
09/14/17 06:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 21
Fouyaut Offline
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Fouyaut  Offline
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Originally Posted by Nahum

PianoStudent88, do you have experience reproducing your speech melody on the instrument?It sounds strange ; no one has ever told us about this in solfeggio classes, as if this never existed. But it takes a story from ancient African culture, where a representative instrument was talking drum- Djembe , which reproduced the rhythmic speech of the performer on it. In the world musical history there are an infinite number of examples of literal reproduction of human speech on musical instruments, mainly in folk music of different countries, in jazz and rock music. Academic musical education struck out this phenomenon completely.


Thanks for the discovery, Nahum. I never knew this was an ancient tradition... Funny to hear Montand's jabbering translated into music smile
The only time I listened to that kind of music was when Charles Spearing released his "happiness project" a few years ago. I remember thinking this was a very original, experimental music. Do you know of other artists who did that besides Hermeto Passoal ?

Re: An invisible music tip - ear. [Re: ZeroZero] #2675397
09/15/17 02:57 AM
09/15/17 02:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,276
Belgium
johan d Offline
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johan d  Offline
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Posts: 1,276
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Originally Posted by ZeroZero
About recognizing notes without knowing the intervals. This is a pet concern of mine.


ZeroZero, a nice way to practice several things on the piano. General Keyboard Layout, Ear training, Chords, Inverted Chords... or just as a warming up.

- play a broken major chord, play it as a block chord
You may also play a I IV V I or ii IV I progression to change the routine a bit
- play a note (don't look which)
It can be in a higher or lower octave than the chord(s)
- Try to resolve it to the nearest Tonic in your head (try to sing it)
That might be up of down the ladder.

Paths:
1<-2<-3<-4 5->6->7->1
1<-b2
1<-2<-b3
b5->5->6->7->1
b6->6->7->1
b7->7->1


The sound example will clear thing up.
You can start easy on using just the C major chord, but afterwards, you can play any major chord. Next you can try with minor chords as well. What I would do is include chromatics directly from the start, they are just notes as other.

https://soundcloud.com/jdg072/eartraining

Re: An invisible music tip - ear. [Re: Fouyaut] #2675614
09/16/17 06:06 AM
09/16/17 06:06 AM
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Nahum Offline
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Originally Posted by Fouyaut


Thanks for the discovery, Nahum. I never knew this was an ancient tradition... I remember thinking this was a very original, experimental music. Do you know of other artists who did that besides Hermeto Passoal ?


There are many examples on the web:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWx3i3cNLIk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4

Even I did something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_AFJ7NPcEA

Re: An invisible music tip - ear. [Re: ZeroZero] #2675963
09/18/17 01:00 AM
09/18/17 01:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 730
California
hello my name is Offline
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Hi ZeroZero.

Skimmed this topic, but want to chime in anyway.. as I think I may have a similar background as you, at least where my ear is concerned. My ear-training only was at the point where I could identify intervals played in isolation, using songs that were similar -- for example, a perfect fifth sounds like Star Wars theme and a perfect fourth sounds like "Here Comes the Bride". Apart from that isolated way of passing a theory exam, I could not, in the context of an actual song, identify intervals. However, when I started singing in chorale in college, I had to learn, because we were given at most a starting note, and then the sheet music. It was difficult for me! At some point, our teacher offered sight-singing sessions to help some of us, which was based on solfege, movable-do. The solfege makes it much easier for me to identify intervals because I can hear each of the sounds "do" "re" "mi" which have their sort of "quality" in relation to one another.

Then if I sing a song, I can figure out what the scale degree of the first note is by finding "do"..
so for example, "I wanna be where the people are.." the first note is "Do" which I can figure out by singing "So-Do" and it ends up on that note. So that line...would be.. Do Do Do Do Re Mi.. So So So...
But I can't do that if I just sing with the words alone.. I have to translate it to solfege in my head, so it's all pretty fuzzy in my auditory part of my brain I guess you could say.

Is this kind of what you're talking about?

I'm a bit confused about the original post, as I would imagine most piano players can do this already (sing the starting note, if it's been played through once), but maybe not.


~piano teacher in training~
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