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Mozart 331 / Notation Question #2672611
09/03/17 08:47 PM
09/03/17 08:47 PM
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tlh1 Offline OP
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The RH of the second measure is very confusing to me. Can some please spell out all the notes for me? G# A ...

The double sharp turns the F# into a G# (that's strange, so it's probably a G) and what about the natural sharp F# and what about the natural sign towards the end ... does it affect the last three notes?

Less important but also strange is the l.h. / r.h. markings. What's going on here? I would play this all with my LH.

[Linked Image]

Many thanks!

PS: This is from the Mozart Sonata in A maj 331, 1st variation (Alfred version, edited by Schnabel)


Oliver
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Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2672612
09/03/17 08:58 PM
09/03/17 08:58 PM
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Morodiene Offline
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Double sharp means you go up 2 half steps from the original note. So in this case, the Fx is a G natural. The natural before the F sharp is to cancel out the double sharp earlier in the measure, and then the sharp tells you to play an F#. The E natural stays through the end of the measure.

So the RH plays: G# - A - Fx(G-nat) - G# - E#(F-nat) - F# - D# - E-nat - E-nat - E-nat - E-nat

As far as the LH/Rh stuff, play it however you want. I play the bass clef all with my LH as well. I think perhaps it was to emphasize the melody going to the top LH note.

Hope that clears it up!


private piano/voice teacher FT

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[Linked Image]
Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2672614
09/03/17 09:00 PM
09/03/17 09:00 PM
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tlh1 Offline OP
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Awesome! Many thanks, Morodiene!


Oliver
Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2672645
09/04/17 12:06 AM
09/04/17 12:06 AM
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Warsaw, Poland
Qazsedcft Offline
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But is it really necessary to cancel out the double-sharp before sharping the F again? I thought that only the last accidental applies.


[Linked Image]
Working on:
Mozart Sonata in G major, K. 283
Moszkowski Etude op. 91 no. 18
Chopin Nocturne in C-sharp minor, op. posth.
Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2672653
09/04/17 01:12 AM
09/04/17 01:12 AM
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Wonderful piece o' music which I'm working on now. Gets mentally fast before the thing ends. Too fast for me. Every time I try it I end up at the piano shop looking for a better piano . . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: Qazsedcft] #2672666
09/04/17 05:16 AM
09/04/17 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
But is it really necessary to cancel out the double-sharp before sharping the F again?


That was done in the past and also taught by Czerny.
I find, that it makes it very clear what goes for that note.
(Initialize...then apply the present condition).


Czerny's Piano School Vol. 1. Reviewing basics/ear training/analysis in interesting exercises.
Opus 599. Now at #77 and giving it a break.
Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2672701
09/04/17 09:59 AM
09/04/17 09:59 AM
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sara elizabeth Offline
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Oh my goodness! It's an IQ test!

Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: Qazsedcft] #2672707
09/04/17 10:24 AM
09/04/17 10:24 AM
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Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
But is it really necessary to cancel out the double-sharp before sharping the F again? I thought that only the last accidental applies.

I think this is a standard way of notating...rarely have I ever seen, for example, a note going from flat to sharp in a measure without first canceling the flat. It's like resetting things before altering them again.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2672722
09/04/17 11:04 AM
09/04/17 11:04 AM
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Warsaw, Poland
Qazsedcft Offline
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OK, I searched about this on the Internet and have even more questions. The French Wikipedia article says that there used to be double-accidentals such as double-natural to cancel out double-sharps, and that this natural-sharp is an example of such a sign, but that these have fallen out of use because of equal temperament. I'm not sure what equal temperament has to do with it and I haven't found anything to corroborate that claim. Could you enlighten me?


[Linked Image]
Working on:
Mozart Sonata in G major, K. 283
Moszkowski Etude op. 91 no. 18
Chopin Nocturne in C-sharp minor, op. posth.
Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2672859
09/04/17 10:21 PM
09/04/17 10:21 PM
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Polyphonist Offline
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The natural sharp to change a double sharp to a single sharp is a custom which used to be the norm but has now fallen out of use. Most scores you would see printed today would simply use a normal sharp sign to cancel a double sharp.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2675239
09/14/17 01:20 PM
09/14/17 01:20 PM
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tlh1 Offline OP
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Sorry, I have another quick question; this time about notation in variation 3. What is the meaning of a small forward slash in front of a note (see bass clef below)?

[Linked Image]

My piano teacher is out of town for a month, so your help would be much appreciated smile


Oliver
Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2675245
09/14/17 01:30 PM
09/14/17 01:30 PM
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I have the Henle Urtext edition and it doesn't have these slashes (I've been working on this sonata for a while with a teacher, too, and she didn't say anything was missing). I think you can ignore them. But let's see what professionals here have to say.

Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2675266
09/14/17 03:00 PM
09/14/17 03:00 PM
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Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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Mine doesn't have those either - and I've not seen them before. Also, I'm not sure what the brackets on the top are supposed to signify.

For now, listen to professional recordings to see if you can hear anything that might indicate those marks, but my guess is they are editorial and so optional (whatever they mean). laugh


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2675287
09/14/17 04:31 PM
09/14/17 04:31 PM
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The slashes might be there to indicate the falling bass line.

The upper brackets might indicate pedaling...but an unusual place for them.
The best would be to try it out and see what it sounds like.


Czerny's Piano School Vol. 1. Reviewing basics/ear training/analysis in interesting exercises.
Opus 599. Now at #77 and giving it a break.
Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2675297
09/14/17 05:20 PM
09/14/17 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tlh1
The RH of the second measure is very confusing to me. Can some please spell out all the notes for me? G# A ...

I know your spelling problem was already answered, but maybe you will find this passage even less confusing if you group those notes by two, as the slurs suggest : the real note following its appoggiatura. The real notes are a descending A major scale (which is not surprising because it's the key of the piece) : A, G#, F#, E. And each of these real notes is preceded/introduced/underlined by the inferior diatonic semitone, respectively G#, F##, E#, D#. Those appoggiaturas are only ornaments, meaning you could play this passage without them, and that it would not sound so much different, just a bit more plain. That kind of inferior half-step appoggiaturas are very frequent in Mozart's pieces, they're almost a cliché of his writing style.

I hope you will enjoy working this first movement, I myself have never tried it but I find it extremely beautiful smile

Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2675316
09/14/17 06:13 PM
09/14/17 06:13 PM
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Qazsedcft Offline
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The slashes look a bit like a ceasura, a symbol used to indicate a brief uncounted pause, like a breath in choral works. The upper bracket looks like the bracket used for volta in repetitions. I have no idea what the editor meant by it (these are editorial marks for sure). Might it be a sostenuto pedal indication?


[Linked Image]
Working on:
Mozart Sonata in G major, K. 283
Moszkowski Etude op. 91 no. 18
Chopin Nocturne in C-sharp minor, op. posth.
Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2675345
09/14/17 08:08 PM
09/14/17 08:08 PM
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Sam S Offline

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I suggest you get a new edition. The Henle urtext is great, and doesn't have all those undecipherable editor marks - just the music, as Mozart wrote it.

$12 on Amazon

Sam

Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: Sam S] #2675351
09/14/17 08:27 PM
09/14/17 08:27 PM
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Sam S
I suggest you get a new edition. The Henle urtext is great, and doesn't have all those undecipherable editor marks - just the music, as Mozart wrote it.

$12 on Amazon

Sam

+1. A good edition of a piece is really worth the money.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Mozart 331 / Notation Question [Re: tlh1] #2675364
09/14/17 09:21 PM
09/14/17 09:21 PM
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Thanks, for the feedback everyone. I didn't know whether those slashes are (less common) notation that would be worth knowing about (and anyway they confused me).

@Qazsedcft: I don't think they are breathing marks (because of the music and also because of their placement in front of the notes).

@Fouyaut: Very interesting and yes that makes perfect sense. I really enjoy this first movement a lot, although initially I was mainly attracted by the theme. It is also very interesting to play/learn. The biggest issue so far is the rhythm of the 2nd variation which is very challenging for me.

@Sam S and Morodiene: I guess it would be easy enough to ignore most of the editorial marks but I just ordered Urtext Sonatas II. I have one other Henle so far (Bach's French Suites) which I like a lot.


Oliver

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