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#2674065 - 09/09/17 08:32 PM Estonia 210 - fair price  
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claiz Offline
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I am still debating between a Bosendorfer 200CS vs an Estonia 210. Both are new and in particular the Estonia is offered at $37650. Is that considered a good price?

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#2674068 - 09/09/17 08:40 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Given that the suggested price is around $57,000.00, this seems a fantastic price. At that price, I would buy it myself.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
#2674072 - 09/09/17 08:45 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Wow! That is a good price for the Estonia, but then there is nothing like playing a Bose. Who would rather dance with for the next ten years? Well, that's the question I always ask myself.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#2674076 - 09/09/17 08:52 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: Dave B]  
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Thank you - the price does not include tax and delivery so it's closer to 40K all included. The Bosendorfer is significantly more expensive and it's interesting my kids continue to prefer Estonia (given their age they don't know and don't care about prestige or price)

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#2674093 - 09/09/17 10:24 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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It is not shocking that someone might prefer an Estonia to a Bosendorfer or any other piano. The pianos play well and have a pretty distinct sound that can really appeal to people. The same could be said for all of the really nice handmade pianos.

Also, unless that piano has been sitting there for a long time(unlikely) or some other circumstance, your price is probably a good one. The suggested prices, even of a "modesty" priced high end instrument, are inflated.

Last edited by sroreilly; 09/09/17 10:27 PM.
#2674099 - 09/09/17 10:58 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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ando Offline
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Lol - that's why I would never seek the opinion of my daughter if I were piano shopping! wink Enough voices in my head without hers! Deciding on a piano is one of the hardest choices ever. Something tells me that you prefer the Bosendorfer though - otherwise you would have taken the cheaper, longer, kid-approved option. Am I right there?

#2674100 - 09/09/17 11:00 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Hi Claiz, those prices seem very competitive. I was offered a new Estonia L210 for the equivalent of USD$41900 here in Australia, shipped interstate with two tunings and a bench. I thought that was excellent value until I saw what you were offered! However, the price of the Bosendorfer 200 you quote is incredible value. The same instrument here costs almost double the Estonia 210. To give you an indication, there was a second hand one going for sale a few months ago for around USD$88000!

I'd like to end off with some advice which you are free to ignore: I would personally not leave it to your children to decide which piano to buy. Although they are precocious talents, their skills are still developing and they have a very long road ahead of them. They most likely have not developed the touch and control in order to fully appreciate the limits of each instrument.

Finally, your kids will probably not be aware of the wide range of adjustments which an experienced technician can perform to the piano, vastly changing the touch and tone to suit the children's tastes. This is something important to keep in mind before choosing your instrument.

Good luck, and post up some of their performances so we can enjoy them too!

Cheers,
John

#2674111 - 09/10/17 12:28 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: parnassus]  
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Originally Posted by parnassus
Hi Claiz, those prices seem very competitive. I was offered a new Estonia L210 for the equivalent of USD$41900 here in Australia, shipped interstate with two tunings and a bench. I thought that was excellent value until I saw what you were offered! However, the price of the Bosendorfer 200 you quote is incredible value. The same instrument here costs almost double the Estonia 210. To give you an indication, there was a second hand one going for sale a few months ago for around USD$88000!


Unless I am reading incorrectly she did not say the price of the bosie 200cs. I would assume only that it is offered at a price that is within her budget. Also, note that it is a CS version, which has a more economical finishing and depending on the age some slight design changes, making it more affordable than a standard Bosie.

Either instrument is beautiful. I think perhaps the shopper here is just suspicious of a comparably unknown make of piano sounding competitive with a known world treasure.

#2674122 - 09/10/17 01:16 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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never having an interest in raising/creating kids myself, the situation is foreign to me, but the question arises in my mind on how developed are the kids' musical sensibilities and preferences. based only on recordings of estonias, it's not hard for me to conceive how their sound characteristics could seem more compatible with popular music (including jazz, which originated in pop music), or romantic/nationalistic/impressionistic period 'classical' genres, or more appealing to sensibilities inclined that way. how the action responds and feels would be another potential aspect of differentiation.

#2674129 - 09/10/17 02:19 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: sroreilly]  
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Originally Posted by sroreilly
Unless I am reading incorrectly she did not say the price of the bosie 200cs. I would assume only that it is offered at a price that is within her budget. Also, note that it is a CS version, which has a more economical finishing and depending on the age some slight design changes, making it more affordable than a standard Bosie.

Either instrument is beautiful. I think perhaps the shopper here is just suspicious of a comparably unknown make of piano sounding competitive with a known world treasure.


Good points. Thanks for that info I didn't know about the CS version, so that was useful. I might seek one out to play one day but new Bosendorfers are hard to come by where I am. Also, I don't think my wife would take kindly to me piano shopping post-purchase!

#2674145 - 09/10/17 06:07 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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For at least the last several years, the only difference between the CS and standard versions of the Bösendorfers is case finish. At one point, there were other differences. I continue to enjoy mine. You have two good choices (and plenty more out there to explore, not to distract you).

#2674221 - 09/10/17 11:19 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Don't mean to totally hijack the topic, but did you consider rebuilds? Unless really stuck on those choices based on feel and tone, you may be able to get a better value.

At 40K, instead of an unknown piano whose value will plummet, you are in the territory of superb Steinway rebuild from a reputable rebuilder. You likely can get an excellent A

You get a basically new Steinway instrument, and avoid the depreciation hit.

#2674241 - 09/10/17 12:35 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Thanks all - I will go with Estonia and will make an offer. The Bosendorfer is significantly more expensive than Estonia, but I do like the sound of Bosendorfer more, thus the question. I do not play though. Who knows may upgrade in the future.

spk - I will not consider Steinway, new or rebuilt. I have very bad experience dealing with Steinway dealer and their arrogance appall me. I don't like being yelled at simply because I considered other brands to be of equal if not better than Steinway.

#2674244 - 09/10/17 12:40 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
Don't mean to totally hijack the topic, but did you consider rebuilds? Unless really stuck on those choices based on feel and tone, you may be able to get a better value.

At 40K, instead of an unknown piano whose value will plummet, you are in the territory of superb Steinway rebuild from a reputable rebuilder. You likely can get an excellent A

You get a basically new Steinway instrument, and avoid the depreciation hit.


To rebuild a Steinway to a level that is objectively competitive with a brand new Estonia 210 is going to put you way beyond 40k. If you are talking apples to apples, you are talking about a Steinway B with new everything including keyset ( not just keytops), action parts, action rails, block, board etc and a world class finish. The tiny number of rebuilders in the world who can put out a rebuilt Steinway B that competes in terms of performance, longevity and even in the same universe with the aesthetics of an Estonia command well more than 40k just for the rebuilding itself.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com
www.twitter.com/pianocraft https://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
#2674253 - 09/10/17 01:13 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Just in case others don't know..... on the Bösendorfer, the CS stands for conservatory series. They came out with these models around 4 or 5 years ago. When I was on a tour of their factory outside of Vienna they mentioned the inside components of the piano are the same as the other Bösendorfer models, but the finish and some other aspects are cheaper then their other models. For instance, they have a flat matt finish instead of a high gloss.

All the best / Steve
Bösendorfer 170


Bösendorfer 170
#2674255 - 09/10/17 01:19 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
I don't like being yelled at simply because I considered other brands to be of equal if not better than Steinway.


Oh, heaven. Details, please. Must. Know. Details.

#2674256 - 09/10/17 01:23 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Trust me when I tell you that nobody here yells at you because you think that other brands are better than Steinway.

A paraphrase of almost every thread here could read: Question: "Should I buy a used or new Steinway or a piece of junk I found on the street with a brand I don't recognize if the price is the same?" Answer: "Oh definitely the piece of junk. Steinways are inconsistent. You can find great things on the street."

#2674283 - 09/10/17 03:16 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I will not recount the experience with Steinway but I promise myself I will not consider buying a Steinway after that, ever.

Another thing is while Estonia is family and musician-owned, Steinway is owned by a hedged fund. I do believe it makes a difference.

#2674394 - 09/11/17 04:31 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
I will not consider Steinway, new or rebuilt. I have very bad experience dealing with Steinway dealer and their arrogance appall me. I don't like being yelled at simply because I considered other brands to be of equal if not better than Steinway.


Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon experience.


Originally Posted by spk


At 40K, instead of an unknown piano whose value will plummet, you are in the territory of superb Steinway rebuild from a reputable rebuilder. You likely can get an excellent A

You get a basically new Steinway instrument...


While Keith already responded to this, I will add that when buying a rebuilt piano, you are buying the rebuilding as much as you are the piano. The experience of the staff you are dealing with in each facet of the restoration (belly work, action work, finishing, and final optimization) will make differences in the initial performance of the rebuilt piano, as well as how that piano ages from that point.

There is a tremendous amount of labor involved in a fine rebuild. At 40k for an A, that staff may be leaving some important considerations off the table, or they are paying slave wages. (Fine craftspeople do not have to work for slave wages).


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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#2674406 - 09/11/17 06:32 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I will stick up for Steinway Hall in Dallas. They went above and beyond to make me happy and comfortable. I cannot speak for others. I had several specific requests which were addressed before purchase. That said, I had similar experiences with other dealers in the area.

#2674419 - 09/11/17 08:23 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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If the OP doesn't want Steinway, for whatever reason, fair enough I understand.

40k may be slightly low if you walk in to a rebuilder showroom. My main point being that 40K is a ton of money for a piano, and can easily find you an artistically satisfying Steinway that will retain its value. You may need to be patient, look on the private secondary market and find a rebuild 5-10 years old, or perhaps deal with cosmetic imperfections. I've personally spoken to several of the most respected PW members who would be happy to find you that piano at that price.

But it is a pretty much total buyers market at that price. Most places in the country I'm guessing 40K pianos are not flying off the shelves. How many people/dealers would turn you away if you were ready to write a check for $40K while telling them you are looking for a Steinway that would possibly be as satisfying as an Estonia 210?

Last edited by spk; 09/11/17 12:08 PM.
#2674479 - 09/11/17 12:39 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
40k may be slightly low if you walk in to a rebuilder showroom.

But it is a pretty much total buyers market at that price.


1. In my experience 40K is very low for a Steinway A for the best rebuilders in metropolitan areas.

2. There are many pianos, both new and rebuilt, whose prices are considerably more than 40K. Offering 40K for a piano that normally sells for a lot more will not get you very far.

#2674490 - 09/11/17 01:34 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Let's not beat this to death, but obviously 40K cannot get you a 60K piano. And not everyone is looking for a top notch 85K restoration from someone like David Hughes. Maybe 40K can't buy you a piano rebuilt today, but perhaps it can get you one 10 or 15 years old.

I'm not an expert but only a consumer and cannot comment expertly on their quality, but a quick search today of websites such as Country Pianos, Allegro, Atlanta Pianoworks, Lindeblad, Acousticraft, show some 6 foot Steinway instruments (and even a couple of B's!!) under 40-45K. And this is not even considering the private used market. I'm not making this up, this is what anyone can see today on the internet.

#2674492 - 09/11/17 01:37 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I am sure there are other good Steinway dealers. In fact, my interaction with another dealer in Steinway Hall London earlier this year has been very pleasant.

spk - 40K is a lot of money (at least to me), and my impression is most of the dealers that I interacted with tried very, very hard to secure my business. Having that said, I don't think I can buy even the smallest new Steinway S for 40K, and I like Estonia 210 a lot more than a Steinway S.

In the end I got a final negotiated price for the Estonia 210 that I am very comfortable with (a price where another dealer refused to match, which gives me comfort that I am not getting a bad price). I paid deposit and already dreaming exact piano placement.

#2674496 - 09/11/17 01:49 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Congratulations on your decision! You should enjoy for many years.

#2674498 - 09/11/17 01:53 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I'm glad you got the piano you liked, you are in a very enviable position. I have played the smaller L168 and did like it.

I would definitely agree with you than your Estonia is miles better than a new S, and would have certainly made the same choice if I was so fortunate!

#2674516 - 09/11/17 03:11 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk

I'm not an expert but only a consumer and cannot comment expertly on their quality, but a quick search today of websites such as Country Pianos, Allegro, Atlanta Pianoworks, Lindeblad, Acousticraft, show some 6 foot Steinway instruments (and even a couple of B's!!) under 40-45K. And this is not even considering the private used market. I'm not making this up, this is what anyone can see today on the internet.
I checked the websites for Lindeblad, Allegro, and Pianoworks and there were no Steinway A or larger models (completely and newly rebuilt) near 40K. The least expensive example was 49.5K. My guess is that Country Pianos will have some less expensive A's but I don't know if the quality is comparable.

If one includes partially rebuilt or previously rebuilt or 85-note examples it may be possible to get an A for around 40K.


Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/11/17 05:10 PM.
#2674573 - 09/11/17 07:19 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
Thanks all - I will go with Estonia and will make an offer.


Why would you ask if the price you were given is a good price...be told by many that it is a very good price and then bicker for less?


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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
#2674580 - 09/11/17 07:46 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Why would you ask if the price you were given is a good price...be told by many that it is a very good price and then bicker for less?

I don't see anything wrong with making an offer and trying to get the best price as long as you're not being insulting about it... the dealer can always say no, and it sounds like claiz was successful in her negotiations.

Congrats, claiz!


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
#2674589 - 09/11/17 08:36 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I would love if buying a new piano is the same as buying a new laptop, and you pay the same everywhere within the country. That's just not the world we live in today. I don't like negotiation one bit, but I hate overpaying even more.

One quick suggestion to piano forum moderator - one of the biggest problems in piano purchase from the consumer perspective is the lack of reliable pricing information, even with Larry Fine database. It will be really helpful if there is a "Past Piano Transaction" forum where people can log their transaction details and dealer review. That will help provide transparency into piano pricing and possibly improve buying experience.

#2674605 - 09/11/17 10:41 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
I would love if buying a new piano is the same as buying a new laptop, and you pay the same everywhere within the country. That's just not the world we live in today. I don't like negotiation one bit, but I hate overpaying even more.

One quick suggestion to piano forum moderator - one of the biggest problems in piano purchase from the consumer perspective is the lack of reliable pricing information, even with Larry Fine database. It will be really helpful if there is a "Past Piano Transaction" forum where people can log their transaction details and dealer review. That will help provide transparency into piano pricing and possibly improve buying experience.


You bring up an extremely good point. I was put off and out of the market not even thinking about a new piano or a perfectly refurbished Tier 1 based on the numbers seen in the PB and on PW. I'm glad I dug in and did more face to face and phone call research before settling.




#2674606 - 09/11/17 10:47 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
[...]
One quick suggestion to piano forum moderator - one of the biggest problems in piano purchase from the consumer perspective is the lack of reliable pricing information, even with Larry Fine database. It will be really helpful if there is a "Past Piano Transaction" forum where people can log their transaction details and dealer review. That will help provide transparency into piano pricing and possibly improve buying experience.


I can see a possible problem with Piano World being a forum for "dealer review[s]," although that's a decision that Frank Baxter would have to make. Piano World has remained largely neutral - except in extreme cases - about rating dealers and perhaps for good reason. Many dealers have particular, individual reasons for wanting to - or needing to - move certain inventory at a given time, and to do so, the price on a particular model might be out of line with what other dealers might be charging. Moreover, area markets contribute largely to pricing variations throughout the country, so the "transparency" you are looking for might be quite artificial.

Surely dealer operating expenses, which must vary widely across the US and Canada, contribute to what a dealer must charge to stay in business, and none of that could be easily factored into a "transaction details and dealer review," in my opinion.

I am not sure how many purchasers would want to "log their transaction details" on a public forum, nor how helpful one owner's details in Atlanta would be helpful to another's in Seattle. It's not like buying a microwave from Amazon or a riding mower from Home Depot.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#2674676 - 09/12/17 08:03 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: pianoloverus]  
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My guess is that Country Pianos will have some less expensive A's but I don't know if the quality is comparable.

Hi,

I personally wouldn't surmise about the quality of someone else's work unless I had personal experience to draw on, and even then, not publicly.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I checked the websites for Lindeblad, Allegro, and Pianoworks and there were no Steinway A or larger models (completely and newly rebuilt) near 40K. The least expensive example was 49.5K


I'm just trying to make the point that 40K is a very substantial budget for most people and could find a good mid-size Steinway if one was interested As I said it may be a slightly older rebuild. Does anyone think a 10 or 15 year old rebuild has the same value today as when it was puirchased? On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

Perhaps we disagree on the types of pianos this may include, but these are the sort of pianos that I am talking about:

https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1950-steinway-b-332407
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1901-steinway-a-101590
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
http://acousticraft.com/forsale/
http://www.pianoworks.com/Mid-Sized-Grand-Pianos/Steinway-and-Sons-6'11-Model-B-1926-Restored-QRS-Pianomation-II.asp
http://www.allegropianos.com/grands-and-baby-grands.html (85 key B rebuilt 2000)
http://www.countrypiano.com/product/1917-steinway-a-grand-piano-mahogany/

Last edited by spk; 09/12/17 09:53 AM. Reason: Formatting
#2674690 - 09/12/17 08:43 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
.
I checked the websites for Lindeblad, Allegro, and Pianoworks and there were no Steinway A or larger models (completely and newly rebuilt) near 40K. The least expensive example was 49.5K. My guess is that Country Pianos will have some less expensive A's but I don't know if the quality is comparable.

If one includes partially rebuilt or previously rebuilt or 85-note examples it may be possible to get an A for around 40K.

[/quote]

Hi,

I personally wouldn't surmise about the quality of someone else's work unless I had personal experience to draw on, and even then, not publicly.

I'm just trying to make the point that 40K is a very substantial budget for most people and could find a good mid-size Steinway if one was interested As I said it may be a slightly older rebuild. Does anyone think a 10 or 15 year old rebuild has the same value today as when it was puirchased? On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

Perhaps we disagree on the types of pianos this may include, but these are the sort of pianos that I am talking about:

https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1950-steinway-b-332407
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1901-steinway-a-101590
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
http://acousticraft.com/forsale/
http://www.pianoworks.com/Mid-Sized-Grand-Pianos/Steinway-and-Sons-6'11-Model-B-1926-Restored-QRS-Pianomation-II.asp
http://www.allegropianos.com/grands-and-baby-grands.html (85 key B rebuilt 2000)
http://www.countrypiano.com/product/1917-steinway-a-grand-piano-mahogany/[/quote]All but one of the examples you listed were either not fully rebuilt or were previously rebuilt. My original comment and those of several other well known top rebuilders were about complete rebuilds only. One can probably get a good mid sized Steinway for around 40K if one buys a used one from a private party but that's not what my original and my later comments were about.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/12/17 08:56 AM.
#2674692 - 09/12/17 09:06 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Does anyone here know how to quote?!

#2674702 - 09/12/17 09:59 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My guess is that Country Pianos will have some less expensive A's but I don't know if the quality is comparable.

Hi,

I personally wouldn't surmise about the quality of someone else's work unless I had personal experience to draw on, and even then, not publicly.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I checked the websites for Lindeblad, Allegro, and Pianoworks and there were no Steinway A or larger models (completely and newly rebuilt) near 40K. The least expensive example was 49.5K


I'm just trying to make the point that 40K is a very substantial budget for most people and could find a good mid-size Steinway if one was interested As I said it may be a slightly older rebuild. Does anyone think a 10 or 15 year old rebuild has the same value today as when it was puirchased? On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

Perhaps we disagree on the types of pianos this may include, but these are the sort of pianos that I am talking about:

https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1950-steinway-b-332407
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1901-steinway-a-101590
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
http://acousticraft.com/forsale/
http://www.pianoworks.com/Mid-Sized-Grand-Pianos/Steinway-and-Sons-6'11-Model-B-1926-Restored-QRS-Pianomation-II.asp
http://www.allegropianos.com/grands-and-baby-grands.html (85 key B rebuilt 2000)
http://www.countrypiano.com/product/1917-steinway-a-grand-piano-mahogany/


There, that is better!

Let's agree then. I would expect rebuilders to emphasize more the considerable craftsmanship and work going into a skilled rebuild, rather than the depreciated value of products on the secondary market. (which is completely understandable from a business sense).

My guess would be though that if you called any one up with this budget burning a hole in your pocket and that you really wanted to buy from them, I would be surprised if they didn't try their best to find something mutually agreeable. Perhaps I am wrong and will be corrected.

#2674714 - 09/12/17 10:45 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

My guess would be though that if you called any one up with this budget burning a hole in your pocket and that you really wanted to buy from them, I would be surprised if they didn't try their best to find something mutually agreeable. Perhaps I am wrong and will be corrected.
I guess I'm still amazed by your presumption that someone would automatically prefer to own a Steinway. I can tell you that nearly every week, a customer that visits us, after playing new Steinways, used Steinways, restored Steinways...learns their true preference is for another maker with a different voice.

If that is your preference, then with enough travel, you can uncover good values, spec pianos, previously restored pianos or mostly rebuilt pianos. $40k is a lot of money, but when a new B is over $100k and a new A is ~$90k, then fresh, top restorations will not be readily available for $40k. Given your proposition, a rebuilder may still do very good overall work but suggest some compromises to you to fit your budget. If anything, the currently soft piano market has kept top restoration prices below where they should be for almost a decade.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
#2674719 - 09/12/17 11:03 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Have to say I agree with Sam. I think one needs to be utterly convinced Steinway is head and shoulders above the rest of piano manufacturing world in order to justify either 1) the premium if buying new Steinway or 2) the compromise if buying used/rebuilt, be it age or uncertainty of quality or both.

#2674721 - 09/12/17 11:11 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: PianoWorksATL]  
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted by spk
On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

My guess would be though that if you called any one up with this budget burning a hole in your pocket and that you really wanted to buy from them, I would be surprised if they didn't try their best to find something mutually agreeable. Perhaps I am wrong and will be corrected.
I guess I'm still amazed by your presumption that someone would automatically prefer to own a Steinway. I can tell you that nearly every week, a customer that visits us, after playing new Steinways, used Steinways, restored Steinways...learns their true preference is for another maker with a different voice.

If that is your preference, then with enough travel, you can uncover good values, spec pianos, previously restored pianos or mostly rebuilt pianos. $40k is a lot of money, but when a new B is over $100k and a new A is ~$90k, then fresh, top restorations will not be readily available for $40k. Given your proposition, a rebuilder may still do very good overall work but suggest some compromises to you to fit your budget. If anything, the currently soft piano market has kept top restoration prices below where they should be for almost a decade.


To quote myself
Originally Posted by spk

If the OP doesn't want Steinway, for whatever reason, fair enough I understand.


I never said Steinway or bust. I also said that I liked the L168 when I tried it. I was asking if the OP considered a rebuilt Steinway. I'm just trying to make the argument that a nice midsize Steinway instrument (used, refurbished, refinished, reconditioned, rebuilt,etc. etc) can be bought at that budget. Present 40K to a reputable dealer/rebuilder, and I suspect you can probably get a nice instrument

But perhaps I am very, very wrong and the argument needs to be made that any instrument (including many rebuilds) below $50K (or $40K or whatever) is not artistically or musically satisfying based on budget only, and is not worthy of consideration.

(btw I did point out a pianoworks Steinway B on your website as a notable example of one I would consider)


Last edited by spk; 09/12/17 11:51 AM.
#2674733 - 09/12/17 12:21 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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It's pretty crazy to see a thread started by a poster who has clearly spent a lot of time shopping and has narrowed a decision down to two specific models of pianos with very specific sounds be massively derailed with a suggestion along the lines of "hey, have you thought about getting a Steinway?!?"

Perhaps the poster isn't aware of the Yamaha line of pianos either?

#2674734 - 09/12/17 12:27 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: sroreilly]  
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Agreed, this forum is too much.

I inquire about considering a rebuilt Steinway at the OP's budget for 40K and get jumped on like not a chance on earth its possible. It's a little bit absurd.

Last edited by spk; 09/12/17 01:15 PM.
#2674745 - 09/12/17 01:56 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
Present 40K to a reputable dealer/rebuilder, and I suspect you can probably get a nice instrument

But perhaps I am very, very wrong and the argument needs to be made that any instrument (including many rebuilds) below $50K (or $40K or whatever) is not artistically or musically satisfying based on budget only, and is not worthy of consideration.

(btw I did point out a pianoworks Steinway B on your website as a notable example of one I would consider)
I was not trying to jump on you. As one of the dealers with pianos listed, I was commenting about it and many on the list...that Steinway was restored 15 years ago, and while well done, it also has a player system that only appeals to some buyers. That is reflected in the cost along with some of the other listings you displayed. Others were previously restored or had slightly less complete restorations as could be identified by the descriptions or photos.

$40k may buy you a fabulous 9' Baldwin restored, but it would never touch even a 7' Steinway restored to the same level unless it had some mitigating circumstances like the one above. Logically, that amount is very brand dependent and specific to some of the work performed. It is not logical to surmise that the number applies to all brands as a value statement even if it is reasonable to say for that brand & size, it is a $ minimum. We do regularly tell customers that $40k will get you this smaller Steinway model _ or this larger brand X.

There have been a few "if money was no object" threads, and most people posted the more obvious answer...to not choose 1 but more than 1 piano. Given the choice, most people would want several pianos to satisfy their different desires and sometimes different moods rather than one "dream" piano. Many people referred to a specific piano they played, either new or in some specific setting that gave them a thrill.

Since the OP's choice is between a Bösendorfer & Estonia of similar size, significant difference in flavor, modest differences in quality but large differences in price, that is how I would present any answer. Bösendorfer "costs" more because of how it is made as well as for how it is branded and distributed. That adds value and cost and cannot be easily separated. The good news is they are good choices either way, both extremely well made and musically satisfying.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
#2674832 - 09/12/17 07:15 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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If OP is looking for European models then I suggest he looks in Europe! Plenty fully refurbished options Bluthner, Bechstein, Grotrian and Bosendorfer for well under 40K, delivered. I agree with the above that best you will find for 40K fully refurbished is Baldwin, Mason or a small Steinway.




#2674845 - 09/12/17 07:49 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Really, can get in Europe for that price? I'm surprised, I thought that shipping/duty would be prohibitive?

Not a bad option, good to know! Are there dealers you may suggest in the U.K. or elsewhere? Maybe that's where I'll take my 40K when I upgrade from my RX3 since I'm out of luck here!

Last edited by spk; 09/12/17 07:56 PM.
#2674850 - 09/12/17 08:39 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Piano Restorations LTD , Hurstwood Farms, Roberts Piano. Dollar very strong making it more attractive. 4% tax , plus about. $3,000 USD shipping and custom crate to port.




#2674854 - 09/12/17 08:47 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: Miguel Rey]  
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many of the vintage German and Austrian made pianos Roberts restores and then shares via youtube are never even available in the u.s. market, except very rarely. they're very attractive in both looks and sound, and not even expensive relative to upper tier kawai or yamaha instruments.

#2674918 - 09/13/17 06:48 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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As a future buyer myself in roughly the same position as the OP, thank you for the information. I never knew that was a reasonable possibility. Those instruments definitely look appealing.

I get the messages loud and clear; the inadequacies of my $40,000 budget to purchase a rebuilt Steinway that is not subpar have been repeatedly and emphatically pointed out, and an instrument such as an A is well beyond me.

Edit: again scanning the forums in March/April, there looked to be a very nice restored 1913 A that someone bought for $42 that generated a lot of forum interest. Maybe there is hope for me after all

Last edited by spk; 09/13/17 01:33 PM.
#2675224 - 09/14/17 11:41 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Sorry to the OP for really hijacking his/her thread. But just a few final thoughts from me and I'm done.

Honestly, if I reacted strongly to the replies, it was because I was disheartened by the responses.

I was in the same buyer's shoes about 2 months ago, and played many pianos. I spoke with several of the dealers/rebuilders here, who could not have been more professional and helpful over the phone.

Instead of a Steinway rebuild which I would have dreamed of, I ultimately went with a mint recent model Japanese 6 foot piano that after skilled voicing and regulation is excellent and which I will never outplay as an amateur with conservatory training. (I still keep an eye on the market and would jump on a good value if I could get it by my wife)

Nevermind a new Steinway, I couldn't justify to myself the 3x + multiple to get a rebuild "top end" restoration even though it was not out of financial consideration.

I would have expected more responses along the lines of moving the goal post closer to find something comparable to the Estonia, instead of setting the bar as a fresh, new exhibit quality, rebuilt B.

Perhaps the boutique restoration market is more robust than I thought and doesn't need someone like me, though I suspect I am not alone in this boat. Obviously, I am not privy to the economics, but that's my view from the outside.

I love, love pianos and the community that supports them, and wish everybody nothing but the best.

later!

#2675259 - 09/14/17 01:21 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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spk - the problem to me is new and restored is fundamentally different. I do not play, and the piano players in my family are under 10 years old. As such I have neither the expertise nor the confidence to tell if a rebuilt piano will hold up in quality, never mind putting a fair value to the piano. Sure I can hire a technician to appraise, but then I need to have very high confidence to the technician too. For this reason, I much rather buy a used but not too old piano then a newly completely rebuilt piano. There are actually newly rebuilt Bosendorfer that are within my budget but I never consider them, primarily because of this reason. In the end, it's a very personal choice and I envy people who have the skill to hunt for a hidden treasure in the restoration market. But given my situation, things like a flexible trade-up policy and good warranty actually are important too.

#2675276 - 09/14/17 02:33 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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A fully restored piano by a good restorer is as good or better than new. I'm having a concert grand being restored now and the only thing that is not being replaced is the metal frame, wood case/lid and brass parts. Everything else is brand new. There is a good chance that I won't have to replace any major part for the next 30-35+ years if I'm fortunate to live that long. smile I am saving about $70,000 dollars




#2675283 - 09/14/17 03:06 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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But how to tell good restorer from bad on a broad scale? There is no Larry Fine or Angie List for piano restorer, as far as I know. I can research piano brands, but researching piano restorer is a lot harder.

#2675334 - 09/14/17 06:30 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
But how to tell good restorer from bad on a broad scale? There is no Larry Fine or Angie List for piano restorer, as far as I know. I can research piano brands, but researching piano restorer is a lot harder.


This thread is too funny.

A professional can probably best answer the qualities of a good restorer.

Regardless, it seems you made a great purchase with your Estonia semi-concert grand! It seems like no reputable Steinway rebuilder could have helped you at the price you paid without compromising, so practically not worth considering in the first place.

#2675348 - 09/14/17 07:15 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Saw a like new 2000 Baldwin SF-10 that was never played for asking of 28k with Renner action by reputable dealer with free delivery and no out of state tax. Probably can offer 25k and buy it all day long. 7 footer and save 15k or so...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcA4JmEbca4&t=324s

Last edited by Mark...; 09/14/17 10:15 PM.
#2675369 - 09/14/17 08:40 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: Mark...]  
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Mr.Estrin does know Baldwins, and it's always interesting to see which pieces he chooses for a particular instrument to show its best.

#2675453 - 09/15/17 09:42 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
But how to tell good restorer from bad on a broad scale? There is no Larry Fine or Angie List for piano restorer, as far as I know. I can research piano brands, but researching piano restorer is a lot harder.



There are a few on Piano World and general research like anything else. Look for years in business, warranty, consumer complaints etc. We're in the internet age with plenty of resources available.




#2675631 - 09/16/17 08:54 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Flashback 6 months to a good rebuilder discussion and a beautiful 1913 A.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2624625/3.html

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