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#2674605 - 09/11/17 11:41 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
I would love if buying a new piano is the same as buying a new laptop, and you pay the same everywhere within the country. That's just not the world we live in today. I don't like negotiation one bit, but I hate overpaying even more.

One quick suggestion to piano forum moderator - one of the biggest problems in piano purchase from the consumer perspective is the lack of reliable pricing information, even with Larry Fine database. It will be really helpful if there is a "Past Piano Transaction" forum where people can log their transaction details and dealer review. That will help provide transparency into piano pricing and possibly improve buying experience.


You bring up an extremely good point. I was put off and out of the market not even thinking about a new piano or a perfectly refurbished Tier 1 based on the numbers seen in the PB and on PW. I'm glad I dug in and did more face to face and phone call research before settling.




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#2674606 - 09/11/17 11:47 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
[...]
One quick suggestion to piano forum moderator - one of the biggest problems in piano purchase from the consumer perspective is the lack of reliable pricing information, even with Larry Fine database. It will be really helpful if there is a "Past Piano Transaction" forum where people can log their transaction details and dealer review. That will help provide transparency into piano pricing and possibly improve buying experience.


I can see a possible problem with Piano World being a forum for "dealer review[s]," although that's a decision that Frank Baxter would have to make. Piano World has remained largely neutral - except in extreme cases - about rating dealers and perhaps for good reason. Many dealers have particular, individual reasons for wanting to - or needing to - move certain inventory at a given time, and to do so, the price on a particular model might be out of line with what other dealers might be charging. Moreover, area markets contribute largely to pricing variations throughout the country, so the "transparency" you are looking for might be quite artificial.

Surely dealer operating expenses, which must vary widely across the US and Canada, contribute to what a dealer must charge to stay in business, and none of that could be easily factored into a "transaction details and dealer review," in my opinion.

I am not sure how many purchasers would want to "log their transaction details" on a public forum, nor how helpful one owner's details in Atlanta would be helpful to another's in Seattle. It's not like buying a microwave from Amazon or a riding mower from Home Depot.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
#2674676 - 09/12/17 09:03 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: pianoloverus]  
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My guess is that Country Pianos will have some less expensive A's but I don't know if the quality is comparable.

Hi,

I personally wouldn't surmise about the quality of someone else's work unless I had personal experience to draw on, and even then, not publicly.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I checked the websites for Lindeblad, Allegro, and Pianoworks and there were no Steinway A or larger models (completely and newly rebuilt) near 40K. The least expensive example was 49.5K


I'm just trying to make the point that 40K is a very substantial budget for most people and could find a good mid-size Steinway if one was interested As I said it may be a slightly older rebuild. Does anyone think a 10 or 15 year old rebuild has the same value today as when it was puirchased? On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

Perhaps we disagree on the types of pianos this may include, but these are the sort of pianos that I am talking about:

https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1950-steinway-b-332407
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1901-steinway-a-101590
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
http://acousticraft.com/forsale/
http://www.pianoworks.com/Mid-Sized-Grand-Pianos/Steinway-and-Sons-6'11-Model-B-1926-Restored-QRS-Pianomation-II.asp
http://www.allegropianos.com/grands-and-baby-grands.html (85 key B rebuilt 2000)
http://www.countrypiano.com/product/1917-steinway-a-grand-piano-mahogany/

Last edited by spk; 09/12/17 10:53 AM. Reason: Formatting
#2674690 - 09/12/17 09:43 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
.
I checked the websites for Lindeblad, Allegro, and Pianoworks and there were no Steinway A or larger models (completely and newly rebuilt) near 40K. The least expensive example was 49.5K. My guess is that Country Pianos will have some less expensive A's but I don't know if the quality is comparable.

If one includes partially rebuilt or previously rebuilt or 85-note examples it may be possible to get an A for around 40K.

[/quote]

Hi,

I personally wouldn't surmise about the quality of someone else's work unless I had personal experience to draw on, and even then, not publicly.

I'm just trying to make the point that 40K is a very substantial budget for most people and could find a good mid-size Steinway if one was interested As I said it may be a slightly older rebuild. Does anyone think a 10 or 15 year old rebuild has the same value today as when it was puirchased? On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

Perhaps we disagree on the types of pianos this may include, but these are the sort of pianos that I am talking about:

https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1950-steinway-b-332407
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1901-steinway-a-101590
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
http://acousticraft.com/forsale/
http://www.pianoworks.com/Mid-Sized-Grand-Pianos/Steinway-and-Sons-6'11-Model-B-1926-Restored-QRS-Pianomation-II.asp
http://www.allegropianos.com/grands-and-baby-grands.html (85 key B rebuilt 2000)
http://www.countrypiano.com/product/1917-steinway-a-grand-piano-mahogany/[/quote]All but one of the examples you listed were either not fully rebuilt or were previously rebuilt. My original comment and those of several other well known top rebuilders were about complete rebuilds only. One can probably get a good mid sized Steinway for around 40K if one buys a used one from a private party but that's not what my original and my later comments were about.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/12/17 09:56 AM.
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#2674692 - 09/12/17 10:06 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Does anyone here know how to quote?!

#2674702 - 09/12/17 10:59 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My guess is that Country Pianos will have some less expensive A's but I don't know if the quality is comparable.

Hi,

I personally wouldn't surmise about the quality of someone else's work unless I had personal experience to draw on, and even then, not publicly.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I checked the websites for Lindeblad, Allegro, and Pianoworks and there were no Steinway A or larger models (completely and newly rebuilt) near 40K. The least expensive example was 49.5K


I'm just trying to make the point that 40K is a very substantial budget for most people and could find a good mid-size Steinway if one was interested As I said it may be a slightly older rebuild. Does anyone think a 10 or 15 year old rebuild has the same value today as when it was puirchased? On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

Perhaps we disagree on the types of pianos this may include, but these are the sort of pianos that I am talking about:

https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1950-steinway-b-332407
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1901-steinway-a-101590
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1914-steinway-a3-169241
http://acousticraft.com/forsale/
http://www.pianoworks.com/Mid-Sized-Grand-Pianos/Steinway-and-Sons-6'11-Model-B-1926-Restored-QRS-Pianomation-II.asp
http://www.allegropianos.com/grands-and-baby-grands.html (85 key B rebuilt 2000)
http://www.countrypiano.com/product/1917-steinway-a-grand-piano-mahogany/


There, that is better!

Let's agree then. I would expect rebuilders to emphasize more the considerable craftsmanship and work going into a skilled rebuild, rather than the depreciated value of products on the secondary market. (which is completely understandable from a business sense).

My guess would be though that if you called any one up with this budget burning a hole in your pocket and that you really wanted to buy from them, I would be surprised if they didn't try their best to find something mutually agreeable. Perhaps I am wrong and will be corrected.

#2674714 - 09/12/17 11:45 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

My guess would be though that if you called any one up with this budget burning a hole in your pocket and that you really wanted to buy from them, I would be surprised if they didn't try their best to find something mutually agreeable. Perhaps I am wrong and will be corrected.
I guess I'm still amazed by your presumption that someone would automatically prefer to own a Steinway. I can tell you that nearly every week, a customer that visits us, after playing new Steinways, used Steinways, restored Steinways...learns their true preference is for another maker with a different voice.

If that is your preference, then with enough travel, you can uncover good values, spec pianos, previously restored pianos or mostly rebuilt pianos. $40k is a lot of money, but when a new B is over $100k and a new A is ~$90k, then fresh, top restorations will not be readily available for $40k. Given your proposition, a rebuilder may still do very good overall work but suggest some compromises to you to fit your budget. If anything, the currently soft piano market has kept top restoration prices below where they should be for almost a decade.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
#2674719 - 09/12/17 12:03 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Have to say I agree with Sam. I think one needs to be utterly convinced Steinway is head and shoulders above the rest of piano manufacturing world in order to justify either 1) the premium if buying new Steinway or 2) the compromise if buying used/rebuilt, be it age or uncertainty of quality or both.

#2674721 - 09/12/17 12:11 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: PianoWorksATL]  
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted by spk
On PW, I don't think you see many threads like "Help! - I have 40K and can't find a decent mid-size Steinway!"

My guess would be though that if you called any one up with this budget burning a hole in your pocket and that you really wanted to buy from them, I would be surprised if they didn't try their best to find something mutually agreeable. Perhaps I am wrong and will be corrected.
I guess I'm still amazed by your presumption that someone would automatically prefer to own a Steinway. I can tell you that nearly every week, a customer that visits us, after playing new Steinways, used Steinways, restored Steinways...learns their true preference is for another maker with a different voice.

If that is your preference, then with enough travel, you can uncover good values, spec pianos, previously restored pianos or mostly rebuilt pianos. $40k is a lot of money, but when a new B is over $100k and a new A is ~$90k, then fresh, top restorations will not be readily available for $40k. Given your proposition, a rebuilder may still do very good overall work but suggest some compromises to you to fit your budget. If anything, the currently soft piano market has kept top restoration prices below where they should be for almost a decade.


To quote myself
Originally Posted by spk

If the OP doesn't want Steinway, for whatever reason, fair enough I understand.


I never said Steinway or bust. I also said that I liked the L168 when I tried it. I was asking if the OP considered a rebuilt Steinway. I'm just trying to make the argument that a nice midsize Steinway instrument (used, refurbished, refinished, reconditioned, rebuilt,etc. etc) can be bought at that budget. Present 40K to a reputable dealer/rebuilder, and I suspect you can probably get a nice instrument

But perhaps I am very, very wrong and the argument needs to be made that any instrument (including many rebuilds) below $50K (or $40K or whatever) is not artistically or musically satisfying based on budget only, and is not worthy of consideration.

(btw I did point out a pianoworks Steinway B on your website as a notable example of one I would consider)


Last edited by spk; 09/12/17 12:51 PM.
#2674733 - 09/12/17 01:21 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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It's pretty crazy to see a thread started by a poster who has clearly spent a lot of time shopping and has narrowed a decision down to two specific models of pianos with very specific sounds be massively derailed with a suggestion along the lines of "hey, have you thought about getting a Steinway?!?"

Perhaps the poster isn't aware of the Yamaha line of pianos either?

#2674734 - 09/12/17 01:27 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: sroreilly]  
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Agreed, this forum is too much.

I inquire about considering a rebuilt Steinway at the OP's budget for 40K and get jumped on like not a chance on earth its possible. It's a little bit absurd.

Last edited by spk; 09/12/17 02:15 PM.
#2674745 - 09/12/17 02:56 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
Present 40K to a reputable dealer/rebuilder, and I suspect you can probably get a nice instrument

But perhaps I am very, very wrong and the argument needs to be made that any instrument (including many rebuilds) below $50K (or $40K or whatever) is not artistically or musically satisfying based on budget only, and is not worthy of consideration.

(btw I did point out a pianoworks Steinway B on your website as a notable example of one I would consider)
I was not trying to jump on you. As one of the dealers with pianos listed, I was commenting about it and many on the list...that Steinway was restored 15 years ago, and while well done, it also has a player system that only appeals to some buyers. That is reflected in the cost along with some of the other listings you displayed. Others were previously restored or had slightly less complete restorations as could be identified by the descriptions or photos.

$40k may buy you a fabulous 9' Baldwin restored, but it would never touch even a 7' Steinway restored to the same level unless it had some mitigating circumstances like the one above. Logically, that amount is very brand dependent and specific to some of the work performed. It is not logical to surmise that the number applies to all brands as a value statement even if it is reasonable to say for that brand & size, it is a $ minimum. We do regularly tell customers that $40k will get you this smaller Steinway model _ or this larger brand X.

There have been a few "if money was no object" threads, and most people posted the more obvious answer...to not choose 1 but more than 1 piano. Given the choice, most people would want several pianos to satisfy their different desires and sometimes different moods rather than one "dream" piano. Many people referred to a specific piano they played, either new or in some specific setting that gave them a thrill.

Since the OP's choice is between a Bösendorfer & Estonia of similar size, significant difference in flavor, modest differences in quality but large differences in price, that is how I would present any answer. Bösendorfer "costs" more because of how it is made as well as for how it is branded and distributed. That adds value and cost and cannot be easily separated. The good news is they are good choices either way, both extremely well made and musically satisfying.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
#2674832 - 09/12/17 08:15 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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If OP is looking for European models then I suggest he looks in Europe! Plenty fully refurbished options Bluthner, Bechstein, Grotrian and Bosendorfer for well under 40K, delivered. I agree with the above that best you will find for 40K fully refurbished is Baldwin, Mason or a small Steinway.




#2674845 - 09/12/17 08:49 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Really, can get in Europe for that price? I'm surprised, I thought that shipping/duty would be prohibitive?

Not a bad option, good to know! Are there dealers you may suggest in the U.K. or elsewhere? Maybe that's where I'll take my 40K when I upgrade from my RX3 since I'm out of luck here!

Last edited by spk; 09/12/17 08:56 PM.
#2674850 - 09/12/17 09:39 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Piano Restorations LTD , Hurstwood Farms, Roberts Piano. Dollar very strong making it more attractive. 4% tax , plus about. $3,000 USD shipping and custom crate to port.




#2674854 - 09/12/17 09:47 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: Miguel Rey]  
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many of the vintage German and Austrian made pianos Roberts restores and then shares via youtube are never even available in the u.s. market, except very rarely. they're very attractive in both looks and sound, and not even expensive relative to upper tier kawai or yamaha instruments.

#2674918 - 09/13/17 07:48 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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As a future buyer myself in roughly the same position as the OP, thank you for the information. I never knew that was a reasonable possibility. Those instruments definitely look appealing.

I get the messages loud and clear; the inadequacies of my $40,000 budget to purchase a rebuilt Steinway that is not subpar have been repeatedly and emphatically pointed out, and an instrument such as an A is well beyond me.

Edit: again scanning the forums in March/April, there looked to be a very nice restored 1913 A that someone bought for $42 that generated a lot of forum interest. Maybe there is hope for me after all

Last edited by spk; 09/13/17 02:33 PM.
#2675224 - 09/14/17 12:41 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Sorry to the OP for really hijacking his/her thread. But just a few final thoughts from me and I'm done.

Honestly, if I reacted strongly to the replies, it was because I was disheartened by the responses.

I was in the same buyer's shoes about 2 months ago, and played many pianos. I spoke with several of the dealers/rebuilders here, who could not have been more professional and helpful over the phone.

Instead of a Steinway rebuild which I would have dreamed of, I ultimately went with a mint recent model Japanese 6 foot piano that after skilled voicing and regulation is excellent and which I will never outplay as an amateur with conservatory training. (I still keep an eye on the market and would jump on a good value if I could get it by my wife)

Nevermind a new Steinway, I couldn't justify to myself the 3x + multiple to get a rebuild "top end" restoration even though it was not out of financial consideration.

I would have expected more responses along the lines of moving the goal post closer to find something comparable to the Estonia, instead of setting the bar as a fresh, new exhibit quality, rebuilt B.

Perhaps the boutique restoration market is more robust than I thought and doesn't need someone like me, though I suspect I am not alone in this boat. Obviously, I am not privy to the economics, but that's my view from the outside.

I love, love pianos and the community that supports them, and wish everybody nothing but the best.

later!

#2675259 - 09/14/17 02:21 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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spk - the problem to me is new and restored is fundamentally different. I do not play, and the piano players in my family are under 10 years old. As such I have neither the expertise nor the confidence to tell if a rebuilt piano will hold up in quality, never mind putting a fair value to the piano. Sure I can hire a technician to appraise, but then I need to have very high confidence to the technician too. For this reason, I much rather buy a used but not too old piano then a newly completely rebuilt piano. There are actually newly rebuilt Bosendorfer that are within my budget but I never consider them, primarily because of this reason. In the end, it's a very personal choice and I envy people who have the skill to hunt for a hidden treasure in the restoration market. But given my situation, things like a flexible trade-up policy and good warranty actually are important too.

#2675276 - 09/14/17 03:33 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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A fully restored piano by a good restorer is as good or better than new. I'm having a concert grand being restored now and the only thing that is not being replaced is the metal frame, wood case/lid and brass parts. Everything else is brand new. There is a good chance that I won't have to replace any major part for the next 30-35+ years if I'm fortunate to live that long. smile I am saving about $70,000 dollars




#2675283 - 09/14/17 04:06 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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But how to tell good restorer from bad on a broad scale? There is no Larry Fine or Angie List for piano restorer, as far as I know. I can research piano brands, but researching piano restorer is a lot harder.

#2675334 - 09/14/17 07:30 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
But how to tell good restorer from bad on a broad scale? There is no Larry Fine or Angie List for piano restorer, as far as I know. I can research piano brands, but researching piano restorer is a lot harder.


This thread is too funny.

A professional can probably best answer the qualities of a good restorer.

Regardless, it seems you made a great purchase with your Estonia semi-concert grand! It seems like no reputable Steinway rebuilder could have helped you at the price you paid without compromising, so practically not worth considering in the first place.

#2675348 - 09/14/17 08:15 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Saw a like new 2000 Baldwin SF-10 that was never played for asking of 28k with Renner action by reputable dealer with free delivery and no out of state tax. Probably can offer 25k and buy it all day long. 7 footer and save 15k or so...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcA4JmEbca4&t=324s

Last edited by Mark...; 09/14/17 11:15 PM.
#2675369 - 09/14/17 09:40 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: Mark...]  
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Mr.Estrin does know Baldwins, and it's always interesting to see which pieces he chooses for a particular instrument to show its best.

#2675453 - 09/15/17 10:42 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 811
Miguel Rey Offline
500 Post Club Member
Miguel Rey  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 811


Originally Posted by claiz
But how to tell good restorer from bad on a broad scale? There is no Larry Fine or Angie List for piano restorer, as far as I know. I can research piano brands, but researching piano restorer is a lot harder.



There are a few on Piano World and general research like anything else. Look for years in business, warranty, consumer complaints etc. We're in the internet age with plenty of resources available.




#2675631 - 09/16/17 09:54 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 35
spk Offline
Full Member
spk  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 35
Flashback 6 months to a good rebuilder discussion and a beautiful 1913 A.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2624625/3.html

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