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#2674065 - 09/09/17 08:32 PM Estonia 210 - fair price  
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claiz Offline
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I am still debating between a Bosendorfer 200CS vs an Estonia 210. Both are new and in particular the Estonia is offered at $37650. Is that considered a good price?

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#2674068 - 09/09/17 08:40 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Given that the suggested price is around $57,000.00, this seems a fantastic price. At that price, I would buy it myself.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#2674072 - 09/09/17 08:45 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Wow! That is a good price for the Estonia, but then there is nothing like playing a Bose. Who would rather dance with for the next ten years? Well, that's the question I always ask myself.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#2674076 - 09/09/17 08:52 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: Dave B]  
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Thank you - the price does not include tax and delivery so it's closer to 40K all included. The Bosendorfer is significantly more expensive and it's interesting my kids continue to prefer Estonia (given their age they don't know and don't care about prestige or price)

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#2674093 - 09/09/17 10:24 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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It is not shocking that someone might prefer an Estonia to a Bosendorfer or any other piano. The pianos play well and have a pretty distinct sound that can really appeal to people. The same could be said for all of the really nice handmade pianos.

Also, unless that piano has been sitting there for a long time(unlikely) or some other circumstance, your price is probably a good one. The suggested prices, even of a "modesty" priced high end instrument, are inflated.

Last edited by sroreilly; 09/09/17 10:27 PM.
#2674099 - 09/09/17 10:58 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Lol - that's why I would never seek the opinion of my daughter if I were piano shopping! wink Enough voices in my head without hers! Deciding on a piano is one of the hardest choices ever. Something tells me that you prefer the Bosendorfer though - otherwise you would have taken the cheaper, longer, kid-approved option. Am I right there?

#2674100 - 09/09/17 11:00 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Hi Claiz, those prices seem very competitive. I was offered a new Estonia L210 for the equivalent of USD$41900 here in Australia, shipped interstate with two tunings and a bench. I thought that was excellent value until I saw what you were offered! However, the price of the Bosendorfer 200 you quote is incredible value. The same instrument here costs almost double the Estonia 210. To give you an indication, there was a second hand one going for sale a few months ago for around USD$88000!

I'd like to end off with some advice which you are free to ignore: I would personally not leave it to your children to decide which piano to buy. Although they are precocious talents, their skills are still developing and they have a very long road ahead of them. They most likely have not developed the touch and control in order to fully appreciate the limits of each instrument.

Finally, your kids will probably not be aware of the wide range of adjustments which an experienced technician can perform to the piano, vastly changing the touch and tone to suit the children's tastes. This is something important to keep in mind before choosing your instrument.

Good luck, and post up some of their performances so we can enjoy them too!

Cheers,
John

#2674111 - 09/10/17 12:28 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: parnassus]  
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Originally Posted by parnassus
Hi Claiz, those prices seem very competitive. I was offered a new Estonia L210 for the equivalent of USD$41900 here in Australia, shipped interstate with two tunings and a bench. I thought that was excellent value until I saw what you were offered! However, the price of the Bosendorfer 200 you quote is incredible value. The same instrument here costs almost double the Estonia 210. To give you an indication, there was a second hand one going for sale a few months ago for around USD$88000!


Unless I am reading incorrectly she did not say the price of the bosie 200cs. I would assume only that it is offered at a price that is within her budget. Also, note that it is a CS version, which has a more economical finishing and depending on the age some slight design changes, making it more affordable than a standard Bosie.

Either instrument is beautiful. I think perhaps the shopper here is just suspicious of a comparably unknown make of piano sounding competitive with a known world treasure.

#2674122 - 09/10/17 01:16 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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never having an interest in raising/creating kids myself, the situation is foreign to me, but the question arises in my mind on how developed are the kids' musical sensibilities and preferences. based only on recordings of estonias, it's not hard for me to conceive how their sound characteristics could seem more compatible with popular music (including jazz, which originated in pop music), or romantic/nationalistic/impressionistic period 'classical' genres, or more appealing to sensibilities inclined that way. how the action responds and feels would be another potential aspect of differentiation.

#2674129 - 09/10/17 02:19 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: sroreilly]  
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Originally Posted by sroreilly
Unless I am reading incorrectly she did not say the price of the bosie 200cs. I would assume only that it is offered at a price that is within her budget. Also, note that it is a CS version, which has a more economical finishing and depending on the age some slight design changes, making it more affordable than a standard Bosie.

Either instrument is beautiful. I think perhaps the shopper here is just suspicious of a comparably unknown make of piano sounding competitive with a known world treasure.


Good points. Thanks for that info I didn't know about the CS version, so that was useful. I might seek one out to play one day but new Bosendorfers are hard to come by where I am. Also, I don't think my wife would take kindly to me piano shopping post-purchase!

#2674145 - 09/10/17 06:07 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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For at least the last several years, the only difference between the CS and standard versions of the Bösendorfers is case finish. At one point, there were other differences. I continue to enjoy mine. You have two good choices (and plenty more out there to explore, not to distract you).

#2674221 - 09/10/17 11:19 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Don't mean to totally hijack the topic, but did you consider rebuilds? Unless really stuck on those choices based on feel and tone, you may be able to get a better value.

At 40K, instead of an unknown piano whose value will plummet, you are in the territory of superb Steinway rebuild from a reputable rebuilder. You likely can get an excellent A

You get a basically new Steinway instrument, and avoid the depreciation hit.

#2674241 - 09/10/17 12:35 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Thanks all - I will go with Estonia and will make an offer. The Bosendorfer is significantly more expensive than Estonia, but I do like the sound of Bosendorfer more, thus the question. I do not play though. Who knows may upgrade in the future.

spk - I will not consider Steinway, new or rebuilt. I have very bad experience dealing with Steinway dealer and their arrogance appall me. I don't like being yelled at simply because I considered other brands to be of equal if not better than Steinway.

#2674244 - 09/10/17 12:40 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
Don't mean to totally hijack the topic, but did you consider rebuilds? Unless really stuck on those choices based on feel and tone, you may be able to get a better value.

At 40K, instead of an unknown piano whose value will plummet, you are in the territory of superb Steinway rebuild from a reputable rebuilder. You likely can get an excellent A

You get a basically new Steinway instrument, and avoid the depreciation hit.


To rebuild a Steinway to a level that is objectively competitive with a brand new Estonia 210 is going to put you way beyond 40k. If you are talking apples to apples, you are talking about a Steinway B with new everything including keyset ( not just keytops), action parts, action rails, block, board etc and a world class finish. The tiny number of rebuilders in the world who can put out a rebuilt Steinway B that competes in terms of performance, longevity and even in the same universe with the aesthetics of an Estonia command well more than 40k just for the rebuilding itself.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
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#2674253 - 09/10/17 01:13 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Just in case others don't know..... on the Bösendorfer, the CS stands for conservatory series. They came out with these models around 4 or 5 years ago. When I was on a tour of their factory outside of Vienna they mentioned the inside components of the piano are the same as the other Bösendorfer models, but the finish and some other aspects are cheaper then their other models. For instance, they have a flat matt finish instead of a high gloss.

All the best / Steve
Bösendorfer 170


Bösendorfer 170
#2674255 - 09/10/17 01:19 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
I don't like being yelled at simply because I considered other brands to be of equal if not better than Steinway.


Oh, heaven. Details, please. Must. Know. Details.

#2674256 - 09/10/17 01:23 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Trust me when I tell you that nobody here yells at you because you think that other brands are better than Steinway.

A paraphrase of almost every thread here could read: Question: "Should I buy a used or new Steinway or a piece of junk I found on the street with a brand I don't recognize if the price is the same?" Answer: "Oh definitely the piece of junk. Steinways are inconsistent. You can find great things on the street."

#2674283 - 09/10/17 03:16 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I will not recount the experience with Steinway but I promise myself I will not consider buying a Steinway after that, ever.

Another thing is while Estonia is family and musician-owned, Steinway is owned by a hedged fund. I do believe it makes a difference.

#2674394 - 09/11/17 04:31 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
I will not consider Steinway, new or rebuilt. I have very bad experience dealing with Steinway dealer and their arrogance appall me. I don't like being yelled at simply because I considered other brands to be of equal if not better than Steinway.


Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon experience.


Originally Posted by spk


At 40K, instead of an unknown piano whose value will plummet, you are in the territory of superb Steinway rebuild from a reputable rebuilder. You likely can get an excellent A

You get a basically new Steinway instrument...


While Keith already responded to this, I will add that when buying a rebuilt piano, you are buying the rebuilding as much as you are the piano. The experience of the staff you are dealing with in each facet of the restoration (belly work, action work, finishing, and final optimization) will make differences in the initial performance of the rebuilt piano, as well as how that piano ages from that point.

There is a tremendous amount of labor involved in a fine rebuild. At 40k for an A, that staff may be leaving some important considerations off the table, or they are paying slave wages. (Fine craftspeople do not have to work for slave wages).


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
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#2674406 - 09/11/17 06:32 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I will stick up for Steinway Hall in Dallas. They went above and beyond to make me happy and comfortable. I cannot speak for others. I had several specific requests which were addressed before purchase. That said, I had similar experiences with other dealers in the area.

#2674419 - 09/11/17 08:23 AM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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If the OP doesn't want Steinway, for whatever reason, fair enough I understand.

40k may be slightly low if you walk in to a rebuilder showroom. My main point being that 40K is a ton of money for a piano, and can easily find you an artistically satisfying Steinway that will retain its value. You may need to be patient, look on the private secondary market and find a rebuild 5-10 years old, or perhaps deal with cosmetic imperfections. I've personally spoken to several of the most respected PW members who would be happy to find you that piano at that price.

But it is a pretty much total buyers market at that price. Most places in the country I'm guessing 40K pianos are not flying off the shelves. How many people/dealers would turn you away if you were ready to write a check for $40K while telling them you are looking for a Steinway that would possibly be as satisfying as an Estonia 210?

Last edited by spk; 09/11/17 12:08 PM.
#2674479 - 09/11/17 12:39 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk
40k may be slightly low if you walk in to a rebuilder showroom.

But it is a pretty much total buyers market at that price.


1. In my experience 40K is very low for a Steinway A for the best rebuilders in metropolitan areas.

2. There are many pianos, both new and rebuilt, whose prices are considerably more than 40K. Offering 40K for a piano that normally sells for a lot more will not get you very far.

#2674490 - 09/11/17 01:34 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Let's not beat this to death, but obviously 40K cannot get you a 60K piano. And not everyone is looking for a top notch 85K restoration from someone like David Hughes. Maybe 40K can't buy you a piano rebuilt today, but perhaps it can get you one 10 or 15 years old.

I'm not an expert but only a consumer and cannot comment expertly on their quality, but a quick search today of websites such as Country Pianos, Allegro, Atlanta Pianoworks, Lindeblad, Acousticraft, show some 6 foot Steinway instruments (and even a couple of B's!!) under 40-45K. And this is not even considering the private used market. I'm not making this up, this is what anyone can see today on the internet.

#2674492 - 09/11/17 01:37 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I am sure there are other good Steinway dealers. In fact, my interaction with another dealer in Steinway Hall London earlier this year has been very pleasant.

spk - 40K is a lot of money (at least to me), and my impression is most of the dealers that I interacted with tried very, very hard to secure my business. Having that said, I don't think I can buy even the smallest new Steinway S for 40K, and I like Estonia 210 a lot more than a Steinway S.

In the end I got a final negotiated price for the Estonia 210 that I am very comfortable with (a price where another dealer refused to match, which gives me comfort that I am not getting a bad price). I paid deposit and already dreaming exact piano placement.

#2674496 - 09/11/17 01:49 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Congratulations on your decision! You should enjoy for many years.

#2674498 - 09/11/17 01:53 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I'm glad you got the piano you liked, you are in a very enviable position. I have played the smaller L168 and did like it.

I would definitely agree with you than your Estonia is miles better than a new S, and would have certainly made the same choice if I was so fortunate!

#2674516 - 09/11/17 03:11 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: spk]  
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Originally Posted by spk

I'm not an expert but only a consumer and cannot comment expertly on their quality, but a quick search today of websites such as Country Pianos, Allegro, Atlanta Pianoworks, Lindeblad, Acousticraft, show some 6 foot Steinway instruments (and even a couple of B's!!) under 40-45K. And this is not even considering the private used market. I'm not making this up, this is what anyone can see today on the internet.
I checked the websites for Lindeblad, Allegro, and Pianoworks and there were no Steinway A or larger models (completely and newly rebuilt) near 40K. The least expensive example was 49.5K. My guess is that Country Pianos will have some less expensive A's but I don't know if the quality is comparable.

If one includes partially rebuilt or previously rebuilt or 85-note examples it may be possible to get an A for around 40K.


Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/11/17 05:10 PM.
#2674573 - 09/11/17 07:19 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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Originally Posted by claiz
Thanks all - I will go with Estonia and will make an offer.


Why would you ask if the price you were given is a good price...be told by many that it is a very good price and then bicker for less?


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#2674580 - 09/11/17 07:46 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Why would you ask if the price you were given is a good price...be told by many that it is a very good price and then bicker for less?

I don't see anything wrong with making an offer and trying to get the best price as long as you're not being insulting about it... the dealer can always say no, and it sounds like claiz was successful in her negotiations.

Congrats, claiz!


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
#2674589 - 09/11/17 08:36 PM Re: Estonia 210 - fair price [Re: claiz]  
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I would love if buying a new piano is the same as buying a new laptop, and you pay the same everywhere within the country. That's just not the world we live in today. I don't like negotiation one bit, but I hate overpaying even more.

One quick suggestion to piano forum moderator - one of the biggest problems in piano purchase from the consumer perspective is the lack of reliable pricing information, even with Larry Fine database. It will be really helpful if there is a "Past Piano Transaction" forum where people can log their transaction details and dealer review. That will help provide transparency into piano pricing and possibly improve buying experience.

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