Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
136 registered members (Animisha, ando, ajames, Amedeus, accordeur, 36251, AlphaBravoCharlie, Andy R, 32 invisible), 1,731 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267295
12/14/08 07:24 PM
12/14/08 07:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Jason,

Like I said before, there are good ones and bad ones. Responsible dealers are more likely to have good ones. Newer is better than older. A short-term dealer warranty could be useless, so you would be well-advised to pay for an independent inspection before any money changes hands. The pianos always look new and pretty. making it easy for unscrupulous sellers to lie about their age (the pianos', not the sellers' laugh ). Many sellers avail themselves of that opportunity. I would not pay more than 3k for any U1 (grey-market or domestic) for myself unless it was less than 15 years old.

Go slow. Keep your own string tension low!


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267296
12/14/08 07:34 PM
12/14/08 07:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
J
jman37 Offline
Full Member
jman37  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
yeah.. my advice get a NEW more entry level piano for your 3.5k, you can wheel and deal with many could possibly get up to a 52" piano if you work hard enough at it.

Like stated before, a factory warranty is far more desired than a dealers.

just think if you purchase a 20 year old "something" in 20 years from now you have a 40 year old upright that is pretty much wore out..

Spend a little more today, get a new one and in 20 years you still only have a 20 year old piano that has a lot of life left in it!

Ive given this advice to some of my students in the same position as yourself..

on a side not, very sorry to have hijacked your thread in the way it happened. sometimes these things happen on open forums.


On the mountain of the lord it will be provided.
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267297
12/14/08 11:21 PM
12/14/08 11:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,119
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,119
Oakland
Quote
No you you are wrong. a 5'8Yamaha or similar sized kawai tension is far higher than a 5'10 boston.
Instead of just making claims, you should tell us exactly what the tensions are. What do you mean by the tension being "far higher"? How do you know that is the case with these pianos?

My experience is that the biggest difference between scales on pianos is that some are good, and some are bad. There are good scales with high tension and good scales with low tension. If the tension is changed on the same piano, how much it is makes less of a difference than how uniform it is


Semipro Tech
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267298
12/14/08 11:51 PM
12/14/08 11:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 25
Cleveland Ohio
J
Jason G Offline OP
Full Member
Jason G  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 25
Cleveland Ohio
Quote
Originally posted by jman37:
yeah.. my advice get a NEW more entry level piano for your 3.5k, you can wheel and deal with many could possibly get up to a 52" piano if you work hard enough at it.

Like stated before, a factory warranty is far more desired than a dealers.
What New pianos should I be looking at for the money I have to spend. What models are available and what are the best values of the bunch. I have not seen new piano price listings or reviews anywhere.

Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267299
12/15/08 12:21 AM
12/15/08 12:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,119
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,119
Oakland
Go to the stores and look. There are a number of identical pianos with different names. Find the pianos you like, and if you have questions, come back and ask them.

Even if you cannot play at all, play all the notes as evenly as you can from top to bottom. If nearby notes feel or play noticeably differently, that is a problem. But your wife should be able to find something she likes, if you go out and look.


Semipro Tech
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267300
12/15/08 12:30 AM
12/15/08 12:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
J
jman37 Offline
Full Member
jman37  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
I would stay away from the "identical pianos with different names" as these are usually VERY low quality "stencil" pianos, usually made in china.

Ive found the Kohler, 131 I believe. its a 52" and a GREAT piano for the $$$

A student of mine wheeled and dealed and got one for 3500 bucks (at least thats what he said)

But I think for 4k you should deff be able to find them.

maple action parts, solid spruce soundboard some other nice features.. Im pretty familiar with the kohler I play them every time I have my recitals at the Steinway dealer locally.

I think they even come with a 12 year warranty, possibly 10 though.

just my 2c


On the mountain of the lord it will be provided.
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267301
12/15/08 12:34 AM
12/15/08 12:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,239
G
guest1013 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
guest1013  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,239
JasonG, you ask what to look for new, The Piano Book 4th Edition and the 2008-2009 annual supplement can help you. You can purchase the supplement online at the bottom right of this web page. When I bought a piano a year ago, these were very helpful. I liked new Young Chang pianos in the $3-$4,000 price range. (I found a used piano on craigslist.)
library catalogue

Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267302
12/15/08 02:32 AM
12/15/08 02:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,119
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,119
Oakland
Quote
I would stay away from the "identical pianos with different names" as these are usually VERY low quality "stencil" pianos, usually made in china.
For $2=3K you are not going to get the best quality piano. However, many of them are quite good. In fact, poor quality pianos are a distinct minority these days, even among pianos made in China.

Just get out there and look! The less money you want to spend, the more it pays to spend looking.


Semipro Tech
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267303
12/15/08 01:16 PM
12/15/08 01:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,383
Orange County, CA
KawaiDon Offline
1000 Post Club Member
KawaiDon  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,383
Orange County, CA
Quote
Originally posted by jman37:
No you you are wrong. a 5'8Yamaha or similar sized kawai tension is far higher than a 5'10

boston.
jman,

I am sure that you mean well in giving your advice, but it seems that you are repeating sales stories from someone who is rather ill-informed. I would appreciate it if you would read this information, and pass it along to whoever told you these things. Your information regarding scale tensions and composites in piano actions are both very seriously misinformed, and by repeating these things here in a public forum you are doing a disservice to the readers, and to yourself.

Expressing personal opinions about your piano preferences is always welcome, and if you prefer a particular brand and feel it's a good value for the money there's certainly nothing wrong with that. Trying to back that up with this kind of factually based argument with scale tensions and such is where the line was crossed. That is why this thread has gotten off track. The purpose of my message is to clear up the incorrect information.

You chose a good example with the Boston GP-178. The scale tension in this piano is 17.7 metric tons, total. The scale tension in the Kawai RX-2 is 16.9 metric tons. This information is supplied by the engineering department at Kawai.

The scale tensions of Boston pianos are not lower in general than the related Kawai pianos. They are in the same range - some models are slightly lower than Kawai, some models (like the 5'10") slightly higher than Kawai. But they are all in the same general area.

If you would go and listen to a new Kawai RX grand, or a Shigeru Kawai grand (about as high end as you can get, by the way), or even a new K-3 upright piano for that matter, you will find that these pianos are not bright and shrill at all.

As to the ABS and ABS-Carbon in actions being cheap, this is also very old sales talk. Any even brief study of the history of these parts will show you that they are proven over the long term - offically, ABS has been in use for 38 years in Kawai pianos. The benefits of these parts are:
- Higher consistency of weight and flexibility than wood, for a more even touch and tone
- Lower mass with higher strength for faster performance without sacrificing tonal power
- Lack of reaction to humidity changes, resulting in less service required, especially in highly variable climates. This is because parts which are screwed down tight to a rail do not swell and shrink with weather changes when made from ABS. Hammers and other parts stay lined up and screwed in place better with a quality composite material - wood is quite inferior in this regard.

Since the ABS-Carbon parts cost more than wood action parts, your other statement of companies using them because they cost less is simply incorrect. Again, any quick investigation into these materials will show you that composites with long-fiber carbon added for strength are generally used in only the most expensive products which benefit from low weight and high strength, from racing bicycles to racing automobiles to aircraft.

As I mentioned, I suspect that this information came to you from an ill-informed salesperson, or
someone who is trying to manipulate you into spreading false information. Please let this person know that they are incorrect, and have them read this message. If you would like more detailed information, feel free to write to me at Kawai, or send me a private message here in Piano World.


Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267304
12/15/08 05:47 PM
12/15/08 05:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
J
jman37 Offline
Full Member
jman37  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
I trust the KAWAI references given supplied appropriate information to the Kawai representative defending his product. By no way is this a means of a conflict of interest?

I understand Kawai's angle at differenintiating themselves from there competition by building plastic or carbon action parts is a great business move.

I always revert to the fact that all of the very best most expensive pianos across the world ALL use wooden parts in there action except Kawai. And I don't really buy into the fact that even a plastic infused with carbon which that can be injection molded by the thousands in one pop is more expensive than a wooden part which take up to 5 steps to shape and create one single part.

Its pretty obvious Kawai has a large following and many high level employees / ex-employees who are very active here.

Thanks Don for your insight.


On the mountain of the lord it will be provided.
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267305
12/15/08 06:18 PM
12/15/08 06:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,996
Williamsburg, VA
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Piano*Dad  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,996
Williamsburg, VA
Don,

I trust you feel appropriately spanked before you were thanked. Yes, your bias is clearly showing as you present tension numbers that are independently verifiable.

jman,

Yes indeed, all the other top shelf manufacturers use wooden action parts. That fact alone says absolutely nothing. BTW, I own one of those other top shelf pianos with wooden action parts (no ABS in my baby). Nonetheless, you need to be able to differentiate between theory and evidence. The mere fact that others do not use ABS does NOT lead inexorably to the conclusion that ABS is inferior. Many other theories are consistent with the same piece of evidence.

For instance, piano manufacturing is a very conservative business, and change is risky. Kawai put in the effort and took the risk. For them, they have developed a design that performs at least to the same standards as wood.

I suspect that ABS vs. high quality wood is no big deal. There is no sure-fire winner in that contest. Thus Kawai gets its side of the argument (strength, lack of humidity changes) and the others get their side of the argument (tried and true approach).

Yet it seems that only Steinway dealers and acolytes continually resurrect the "cheap plastic parts" claim over and over. The argument is disingenuous and serves only to discredit those who push it.


P.S. Don speaks AS a representative of Kawai. He clearly identifies himself. This is something I strongly suspect is not the case with all people who push brands. Don's credibility is well established, unlike yours.

Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267306
12/15/08 06:25 PM
12/15/08 06:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Banned
T
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member
theJourney  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Banned
Quote
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Yet it seems that only Steinway dealers and acolytes continually resurrect the "cheap plastic parts" claim over and over. The argument is disingenuous and serves only to discredit those who push it.


P.S. Don speaks AS a representative of Kawai. He clearly identifies himself. This is something I strongly suspect is not the case with all people who push brands. Don's credibility is well established, unlike yours.
Likely the teflon bushings fiasco at Steinway has turned them off from the idea of actually innovating anymore.

Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267307
12/15/08 06:26 PM
12/15/08 06:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,198
C
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
charleslang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,198
Mason and Hamlin is presenting their new composite action in the concert grand that will be on display at NAMM this year.

Steinway is looking more and more like it's stuck int the 20th century these days.


charlessamuellang.com
Semi-pro pianist and piano technician
Tuesdays 5-8:30 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267308
12/15/08 06:49 PM
12/15/08 06:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
J
jman37 Offline
Full Member
jman37  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
I did not post that the plastic/carbon action parts were either superior or inferior, I just gave my subjective opinion that I prefer the "tried and true" wooden parts that are used in the worlds highest quality pianos.

I respect Don and his views which stay consistent upon defending his products.


On the mountain of the lord it will be provided.
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267309
12/15/08 06:55 PM
12/15/08 06:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
J
jman37 Offline
Full Member
jman37  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Tampa, fl
Ill stick with Hard rock maple, as did 98% of the concert artist last concert season who choose Steinway to be the piano they prefer and play on, as do I >>>>>>my model B<<<<<<<

Quote
Originally posted by charleslang:
Mason and Hamlin is presenting their new composite action in the concert grand that will be on display at NAMM this year.

Steinway is looking more and more like it's stuck int the 20th century these days.


On the mountain of the lord it will be provided.
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267310
12/15/08 06:57 PM
12/15/08 06:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
yesterday
Quote
the Steinway dealership sells the Kohler & Campbell piano for there more entry level price point.

I feel it is an excellent piano given its price. They have Maple action parts (not plastic, very important)
today
Quote
I did not post that the plastic/carbon action parts were either superior or inferior
Each of us can form our own judgement on your veracity and your intent. I know what mine is.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267311
12/15/08 07:09 PM
12/15/08 07:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,198
C
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
charleslang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,198
Most concert artists are part of the older generation.

Here is a pretty impressive list of some of the next generation:

http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/why_kawai/winners_choice.html


charlessamuellang.com
Semi-pro pianist and piano technician
Tuesdays 5-8:30 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267312
12/15/08 07:17 PM
12/15/08 07:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,198
C
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
charleslang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,198
From turandot's very good post I judge that jman37 has lied to us ... apparently jman37's sources have lied as well, since jman37 was convinced that Kawai's scales had higher tension than Boston's.

jman37 is sounding a little like a spokesman for the Bush administration!


charlessamuellang.com
Semi-pro pianist and piano technician
Tuesdays 5-8:30 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267313
12/15/08 07:32 PM
12/15/08 07:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,996
Williamsburg, VA
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Piano*Dad  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,996
Williamsburg, VA
Well, Charles, calling him a liar may be a touch extreme. wink

He is, however, sounding like the occasional Steinway representative here who reads from the promo sheet without any real understanding of pianos. The plastic parts shibboleth coupled with the triumphalist trumpeting of the Steinway Artist roster combine to identify the example.

Re: What would you buy - Upright 2-3K #267314
12/15/08 08:04 PM
12/15/08 08:04 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,755
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
4000 Post Club Member
terminaldegree  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,755
Georgia, USA
jman37,

There is no harm in having stated your opinions and preferences. Having said that, keep in mind that this forum is highly trafficked, registers highly on search engine results, and is often used by novices as a tool to make better-informed decisions.

In light of the fact that you have posted incorrect information about the scale of the Kawai vs. Boston (unless you have some hard data from scaling software you've yet to post) and the cost of manufacture of different types of action parts, would you consider redacting this information for the good of those who search this board in the future?

Don Mannino is a very important Kawai employee, but more than that he has proven over the course of years here on the forum that he's a piano enthusiast first and is capable of giving advice with a sense of greater objectivity than many sales shills/sock puppets that lie in wait around here.

His demeanor on PW emphasizes quality of posts instead of quantity, and is an asset to the forum from the industry perspective (not unlike Bob Snyder has recently become for Steinway). So far, you've shown NO respect for anyone else's point of view or choice of brand since the moment you've appeared here...


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Craigslist Again!
by UnrightTooner. 03/26/19 06:53 AM
Best site to learn gospel music?
by chongjasmine. 03/26/19 06:35 AM
Piano marvel vs playground sessions?
by chongjasmine. 03/26/19 05:50 AM
Lifting the CA98
by iLogic. 03/26/19 02:58 AM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics191,134
Posts2,811,034
Members92,881
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2