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Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2671770
08/31/17 09:27 AM
08/31/17 09:27 AM
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On a related note, here's the story of 3 S&S Pianos owned by the Grand Ole Opry and their restoration after the 2010 Nashville flood. It's a neat story, but as related in the video it was a time consuming and costly process, but the Opry chose to do it because of the historical value of the 3 instruments -- 2 S&S B's and a Vertigrand played by President Nixon. Does anyone here know if the restoration of these instruments has been successful in the long term?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trRo_Hh1qQI

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Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2671781
08/31/17 10:09 AM
08/31/17 10:09 AM
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Reseda, California
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
For a grand piano, a critical point is when the flood waters reach the height of the keys. There are still likely questions about the value vs. the repair cost, but once the keys get wet, you've usually exceeded the value even in valuable instruments..


So, if you have to evacuate before a flood, might it be a good idea to pull the action from a grand and take it upstairs? Perhaps also wrap it in plastic bags?


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
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Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2671818
08/31/17 12:57 PM
08/31/17 12:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,667
Chicago, Illinois
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Here's a story that popped up on the news today. Looks like he's playing a Yamaha M2F, which is what we had when I was a kid.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/31/us/piano-texas-flood-trnd/index.html

Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2671841
08/31/17 03:04 PM
08/31/17 03:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,758
Kuwait
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My first musical performance was as a result of a flood. My mother floated out of the house on a bed, I accompanied her on the piano.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: JohnSprung] #2671849
08/31/17 03:19 PM
08/31/17 03:19 PM
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Portland, OR
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Originally Posted by Beemer
I hope like me she has her piano covered under her household insurance.

It doesn't sound like it is covered. She mentioned in her post that the total coverage for all of their belongings is less than half of the value of the piano. I'm not sure if this is because of inadequate coverage or lack of flood insurance. I've been reading reports that some areas that flooded were in the 500-year or 1000-year floodplain, so the owners did not have flood insurance-- normal home insurance excludes floods.

It's devastating, and I am hearing of so many people who have literally lost everything they own. (Not to get off-topic, but hope those who are able will help where they can-- aside from monetary donations, local blood banks are being depleted to help those in Houston so blood donation is helpful across the country.)


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: S. Phillips] #2671851
08/31/17 03:30 PM
08/31/17 03:30 PM
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Posts: 10,958
Maryland/DC/No. VA
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Originally Posted by S. Phillips
Old pianos made before WWII are assembled with hot hide glue. The melting point of that glue is 140 degrees. It is noteworthy that the standard method of joint release in old pianos is heat and steam because of this. A piano that has absorbed moisture and is exposed to heat is likely to have extensive damage to the hundreds of glue joints. A piano removed from a flood and put into uncontrolled storage in Texas could easily be subjected to 140 degree temps in the sun.

I actually do not agree that the damage is limited if the water does not reach the level of the keys. A grand piano sitting in water for days on end, even if the water does not reach the bottom of the key bed will take on enormous moisture in the rim, soundboard, action and bridges. The soundboard will form compression ridges and the fibre of the wood is crushed so that upon drying out the wood will crack. Even if the water is only 5-6 inches above the floor, strings, tuning pins and screws will rust and wood will swell far beyond its original specs, causing extreme moment of joints. Even if the piano is much newer than the pre WWII years the modern glues will not prevent the wood from swelling or rust from forming. And if the piano has case part panels that are made of MDF or other particle boards the swelling will not be able to be repaired.

It takes a much shorter time for wood to absorb moisture than to release it. As a result the ability to assess damage could be years away. My advice is to immediately claim the full replacement of a piano subjected to this type of flooding damage and don't look back. The repairs will almost always eclipse the value and even if the piano can be repaired with a full rebuild without being upside down on the cost, most of the time the owner will have a greatly devalued instrument as a result.



I'm with Sally 100% on this one. I do a good bit a professional appraising (I'm the lead appraiser for PianoBuyer's Seller Advisory Service, a subsidiary of Larry Fine's PianoBuyer.) See PianoBuyer's Seller Advisory Service

If a piano has significant exposure to water it is almost always considered totaled and replacement value insurance will provide a new piano. The main reason is that the fact that the exposure took place has a dramatic affect on its resale value. Who would knowingly buy a water-damaged piano, and selling one without disclosing this material fact is a mistake. The insured has the right to be compensated for that loss as well as the cost of repairs, which almost invariably exceeds the cost of a reasonable replacement.


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: twocats] #2671852
08/31/17 03:34 PM
08/31/17 03:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,668
Atlanta, GA
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Originally Posted by twocats
I've been reading reports that some areas that flooded were in the 500-year or 1000-year floodplain, so the owners did not have flood insurance-- normal home insurance excludes floods.

It's devastating, and I am hearing of so many people who have literally lost everything they own. (Not to get off-topic, but hope those who are able will help where they can-- aside from monetary donations, local blood banks are being depleted to help those in Houston so blood donation is helpful across the country.)
It's too soon to have good statistics, but I've been reading that many of the floodplain maps are badly outdated. In the gulf, land subsides, the ocean rises, storms appear to be increasing in their strength, and the basis for the 100 year floodplain and therefore insurance requirement, is inadequate for most flood victims. While a huge and devastating storm, I do not believe this was a 500 or 1000 year storm. The 500 & 1000 year plots are outdated as well.

There is a lot to learn and implement from this type of disaster. I hope our better nature prevails for the future, rather than looking for blame.


Sam Bennett
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Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2671857
08/31/17 04:01 PM
08/31/17 04:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 37
Goshen, Indiana
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We got our first call today regarding a Harvey damaged piano. From what I gathered, the owner did not have it covered by their insurance. frown


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Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2671869
08/31/17 04:35 PM
08/31/17 04:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 208
North Tx
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North Tx
Allstate (homeowners insurance) would not ensure pianos beyond a certain price point, but I got reasonably priced replacement coverage from Heritage.

Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2671872
08/31/17 04:47 PM
08/31/17 04:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 208
North Tx
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A video of a man playing his flooded piano in Houston while home retrieving belongins, from NBC news. (Note-don't need to have twitter account to view).

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/903278520973099008

Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2671965
09/01/17 01:15 AM
09/01/17 01:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,758
Kuwait
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Not having an item as expensive as a good piano insured is a risk. Of course theft is usually not a risk, but fire can always occur. As we have seen so many times, flooding is a big risk in some places.

Aggregating down is another risk. If your house contents are worth 100,000 and you have them insured for, say, 60,000 an insurance company is quite correct, in UK, to pay only 60% of any claim.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: PhilipInChina] #2672027
09/01/17 09:48 AM
09/01/17 09:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,018
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
Not having an item as expensive as a good piano insured is a risk. Of course theft is usually not a risk, but fire can always occur. As we have seen so many times, flooding is a big risk in some places.

Aggregating down is another risk. If your house contents are worth 100,000 and you have them insured for, say, 60,000 an insurance company is quite correct, in UK, to pay only 60% of any claim.


If you have them insured for 60,000, the insurance company should pay 100% of claims up to 60,000, but no more.


Semipro Tech
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: BDB] #2672055
09/01/17 11:04 AM
09/01/17 11:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,624
Hobart, Australia
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ando Online content
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Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
Not having an item as expensive as a good piano insured is a risk. Of course theft is usually not a risk, but fire can always occur. As we have seen so many times, flooding is a big risk in some places.

Aggregating down is another risk. If your house contents are worth 100,000 and you have them insured for, say, 60,000 an insurance company is quite correct, in UK, to pay only 60% of any claim.


If you have them insured for 60,000, the insurance company should pay 100% of claims up to 60,000, but no more.

You would think so, but you'd be wrong. Most insurance companies don't work this way. They are very insistent that you don't underquote the value of your belongings. They won't let you insure only half your building or contents. If you do, they will penalise you heavily for being "underinsured". They take the view that if you underinsure, you are hedging your bets and taking a lower premium because you believe you are unlikely to ever hit the sum insured. So if your total contents was worth 300k and you only insured for 250k (80%), they will apply that shortfall to any claim. That means if you made a claim for $60k worth of property loss, they would only pay you $50k (80%). The only way to avoid this sort of result is to have an agreed-value policy where you specifically itemise what items you would like insured and you apply a value to them. They don't work this way for general non-itemised assets.

Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: ando] #2672074
09/01/17 12:07 PM
09/01/17 12:07 PM
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Oakland
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Sounds like a racket to me.


Semipro Tech
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2672083
09/01/17 12:36 PM
09/01/17 12:36 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,795
Florida
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Mentioning how insurance companies and claims pay, is a very sketchy thing to make as a generalization on a global website, as policies can vary from company to company or from country to country.

Concerned about what is covered and under what conditions? Check your insurance policy and talk to your insurance agent.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2672109
09/01/17 02:27 PM
09/01/17 02:27 PM
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USA
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I don't think homeowners insurance covers floods. If your piano or other items are damaged by a broken pipe, that is not a flood, and would be covered by home owners insurance. If the river in your neighborhood rises, and floods your house, flood insurance would be needed. I live next to a small marsh, which might flood my home in the event of a severe rain event such as Houston experienced. My home owners insurance would not cover the damage, so I have flood insurance, which since I'm not in a flood plain, costs me about $350 per year. Unless these folks have flood insurance, I fear they will not be covered.




Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: Bob] #2672141
09/01/17 04:48 PM
09/01/17 04:48 PM
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Portland, OR
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twocats Offline
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Originally Posted by Bob
I don't think homeowners insurance covers floods.

According to my insurance agent, normal homeowner's insurance does not cover floors, earthquakes, volcanoes, and landslides. I'm paying extra for earthquake (through my insurance) and flood (through FEMA). I'm not worried about volcanoes in my area, and although I'm a bit concerned about living on a hill, landslide insurance is hard to get and crazy expensive (my agent said that Lloyd's of London would cover for something like $15k a year!).


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2672230
09/02/17 01:48 AM
09/02/17 01:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,758
Kuwait
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BDB, the thinking runs like this, you have insured 60% of your goods. If 60% is stolen then why should it be necessary for the company to pay out the full whack? Are you suggesting that the thief stole only items which were insured?


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: twocats] #2673152
09/06/17 09:39 AM
09/06/17 09:39 AM
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Portland, OR
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Originally Posted by twocats
Originally Posted by dogperson
I know that many of us have looked for a long time to find the pianos that we want (and can afford)! I cannot imagine what it would feel like to lose my pianos in a flood! Almost everything else at home could be easily replaced with one just like it.........but not my piano

I'm sure that many of us here feel the same way

My sister's friend is a concert pianist and teacher in Houston and lost her beloved C. Bechstein that she spent most of her life's savings on. There is a photo of it standing with water all the way up to the bottom of its case, and another of the ivory keytops haphazardly coming off. You can hear her pain as she talks about everything they're going through, but that the loss of her piano is what is completely breaking her heart frown

Her friend has set up a GoFundMe for her if you'd like to contribute. You can hear her play in Update #1. Her recent Facebook posts show all of her sheet music destroyed, many of which have markings from her mentors who have since passed away.


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
Re: Post-storm, water damaged pianos? [Re: terminaldegree] #2673307
09/06/17 05:57 PM
09/06/17 05:57 PM
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Do any of you buy an insurance policy solely for your piano? Is that even a thing? Or is it usually covered under household contents provisions of another policy?

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