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RCM Grade 10 Exam #2670788 08/27/17 12:51 AM
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I am about to take my grade 10 RCM piano exam in December and I was wondering if anyone knew how much memorization mattered in this exam? I'm doing the 2016 syllabus and it says that if you don't memorize your piece, you'll lose 1 mark. Does this mean that if you restart a piece or if you have a memory slip in your exam that the most you can lose is one mark?
Thanks.

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Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: piano2002] #2670828 08/27/17 08:33 AM
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I don't think that it means that at all. What I think it means is that one mark is deducted from the total for the piece if you play from the score. The total number of marks allotted for the piece - minus one for not being memorized - are then tallied against the candidate's performance of it. If the candidate has to re-start or has a memory lapse, (surely) additional marks will be deducted. Remember that the Grade X examination is to be considered a near-professional performance; if it's not, the candidate's grade suffers.

Factor also into the equation, the consideration of the examiner. Some are much more severe, some are much more human that others.

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Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: piano2002] #2670834 08/27/17 09:08 AM
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Personally, I think that giving the student the option of definitely losing marks for his pieces if he played from the score or else taking a chance and 'gambling' on the odds of him having memory lapses - bearing in mind the effect of nerves - is the worst of all worlds, especially for a young pianist. OK, even for an adult student. After all, these are not professional exams, not competitions. Not entrance exams for anything. Not even the Van Cliburn Competition for Amateurs (which doesn't penalise using scores).

Why penalise students - who are very unlikely to become concert soloists (the only category of musicians who routinely play from memory) - for using music in grade exams? (For performance diplomas, yes; teaching diplomas - no!!)

OK, rant over. I'm just glad I didn't do RCM....... wink


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: piano2002] #2670845 08/27/17 10:40 AM
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Yeah, I agree with both of those. The regulations to me certainly mean you'll lose 1 mark just for using a score; any additional problems that may or may not be related to that (such as needing to restart or memory slips) would result in a further loss of marks. And yes, it seems bonkers. Even Richter, later in life, often played with a score in front of him. It doesn't mean he sat there sight-reading; it was more a mnemonic and reassurance in case it was needed.

When I learned as a child and teenager, I was able to play without a score quite happily. Now I've returned to it after a long hiatus, I find I need the score. I understand the need for memorisation and a friend of mine who learned with a very well respected teacher (and international concert pianist) reported after his first lesson that after his first play through in which he used a score, the teacher leaned across, took the score away and said "right, now let's play it properly". Having to pay attention to a score may indeed distract you from the performance, but it seems unlikely that at a high level like Grade 10 people will be doing anything other than making the occasional reference to it or using it a prop, and if it helps overall, then why not? Seems an arbitrary punishment, unless someone can demonstrate that performances really are significantly worse in musical terms as a result of using a score.


Last edited by karvala; 08/27/17 10:42 AM.

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Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: bennevis] #2670858 08/27/17 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis


Why penalise students - who are very unlikely to become concert soloists (the only category of musicians who routinely play from memory) ...


I'm not sure how accurate this statement is. Jazz musicians routinely play from memory as do church musicians, rock musician, etc.

Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: DanS] #2670866 08/27/17 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DanS
Originally Posted by bennevis


Why penalise students - who are very unlikely to become concert soloists (the only category of musicians who routinely play from memory) ...


I'm not sure how accurate this statement is. Jazz musicians routinely play from memory as do church musicians, rock musician, etc.


Church musicians apart (I'm not sure how many church musicians (organists, pianists) "routinely play from memory" as I've not seen any who do) jazz and rock musicians are frequently improvising or playing pretty freely over a basic bass line, whereas classical musicians are required to play, note-for-note, exactly what is written in often quite complex scores.

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Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: bennevis] #2670870 08/27/17 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
[...]
Why penalise students - who are very unlikely to become concert soloists (the only category of musicians who routinely play from memory) - for using music in grade exams? (For performance diplomas, yes; teaching diplomas - no!!)

OK, rant over. I'm just glad I didn't do RCM....... wink


Putting aside, for the moment, the artistic question of whether or not professional pianists should be expected or required to play from memory:

In RCM Grade X, for example, which is a pre-requisite of the diploma examination, five repertoire pieces (apart from technical exercises) are required. The pieces earn a possible 12, 14, 10, 10, 10 points or a total of 56 points. You lose one point per selection if playing from the score. How much of a penalty is that, really?

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Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: DanS] #2670871 08/27/17 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DanS
Originally Posted by bennevis


Why penalise students - who are very unlikely to become concert soloists (the only category of musicians who routinely play from memory) ...


I'm not sure how accurate this statement is. Jazz musicians routinely play from memory as do church musicians, rock musician, etc.

Obviously, I'm talking about classical musicians here. I'd qualify my post thus if I was posting in the Non-Classical Forum.

Church musicians play from the score except when they're improvising, as they often have to do.

BTW, of my four teachers, three had never played any classical piece from memory (though they did play other stuff by ear occasionally). The fourth, a concert pianist, did play from memory, but only in solo recitals.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: BruceD] #2670877 08/27/17 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD

In RCM Grade X, for example, which is a pre-requisite of the diploma examination, five repertoire pieces (apart from technical exercises) are required. The pieces earn a possible 12, 14, 10, 10, 10 points or a total of 56 points. You lose one point per selection if playing from the score. How much of a penalty is that, really?


5 points could mean the difference between a pass or a fail. Or between a pass and honors.

In fact, one point could mean the difference between a pass or a fail (etc).

1 point out of 10 is 10% of the marks - a huge penalty, in my book.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: piano2002] #2670883 08/27/17 01:34 PM
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Considering the level of this Exam, Grade 10, I would consider it appropriate to provide an automatic deduction for not having a piece memorized. The reason I would say this is that people at this level will in general be performing solo recitals, and for pianists, that still implies working from memory. I realize that this is not universally true, but to me this is still the "conventional wisdom" for solo Classical pianists. I guess we have Franz Liszt to blame for that.

Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: Tim Adrianson] #2670889 08/27/17 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Adrianson
Considering the level of this Exam, Grade 10, I would consider it appropriate to provide an automatic deduction for not having a piece memorized. The reason I would say this is that people at this level will in general be performing solo recitals, and for pianists, that still implies working from memory..

I don't live in Canada, and I have no idea of the music scene there, but I doubt that many students use RCM grade 10 as the means to a solo career.

According to the RCM blurb:
The Royal Conservatory Certificate Program (The Certificate Program) provides a recognized national standard and sequenced program for people studying music privately, from beginner through advanced levels. The program’s examinations allow students to track their progress and celebrate their accomplishments. In addition, the examinations provide measurable objectives for parents and teachers to better understand a student's musical growth. The program also supports independent teachers with innovative, high-quality resources.

....which is similar to ABRSM, with which I'm very familiar. The vast majority of students who achieve Grade 8 in ABRSM (roughly equivalent to Grade 10 RCM) - like me - don't even pursue a music career. If they do, it's often as teachers, collaborative pianists, répétiteurs etc, not concert pianists. And if considering a music profession, they'd almost certainly go on to do a diploma of some sort, or to a conservatory. (All my teachers had diplomas - as do I, even though I never contemplated pursuing a music career myself).

In other words, obtaining the highest grade in such a music exam is usually just the pinnacle of achievement for most students, of which only a tiny minority might go on to more advanced study to make a career in music.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: bennevis] #2670905 08/27/17 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
[quote=DanS][quote=bennevis]

Church musicians play from the score except when they're improvising, as they often have to do.



As a church musician with 25+ years under my belt, I can assure that I play from memory all the time, as do a lot of my colleagues. It just happens when you play the same things day in and day out. It also happens from improvising over the hymns...

Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: DanS] #2670906 08/27/17 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DanS

As a church musician with 25+ years under my belt, I can assure that I play from memory all the time, as do a lot of my colleagues. It just happens when you play the same things day in and day out. .

I'm surprised that you're playing the same stuff all the time.

I don't attend church, but I know a few church organists, and they play from a couple of thick hymn books, each containing several hundred hymns. (I own one of them - a relic of my time as a music student when I was studying harmony). They are all excellent sight-readers but they never play hymns, voluntaries, preludes & postludes etc from memory. They never play the same preludes/postludes etc twice in the same month, because the congregation is the same every week. As for the hymns, they take their cue from the sermon for the service, in consultation with the pastor.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: piano2002] #2670909 08/27/17 04:32 PM
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Playing using the music is a valid option, especially if you are spending all your time trying to memorize. In some cases it is better to skip the memorization and work on getting a solid musical performance using the music. Just be aware that it is tricky to play from the music if the work is partially memorized.

At least at Gr. 10 there is only one mark per piece for memory. At the earlier levels it is two marks per piece. I had a student once forget the last line of her piece, asked for her music to finish it, and lost both marks for memory.


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Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: Arghhh] #2670914 08/27/17 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Arghhh

At least at Gr. 10 there is only one mark per piece for memory. At the earlier levels it is two marks per piece. I had a student once forget the last line of her piece, asked for her music to finish it, and lost both marks for memory.

Curiouser and curiouser! (said Alice in Alice in Wonderland).....

Why are more marks per piece deducted from Grades 1 - 9 than in Grade 10?

BTW, I came across this from another forum:
"Playing from memory is encouraged from very early on in the RCM exams. From Grade 1 to Grade 9, candidates receive 2 marks for each piece performed from memory, and most canddiates are prepared to play from memory. In Grade 10, 2 marks are deducted from each piece not played from memory. For the Associateship Diploma in Performance, no marks are given for each piece played with the score."(sic)

Apart from the fine distinction between adding and deducting marks wink , did this poster get it wrong?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: bennevis] #2670919 08/27/17 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by DanS

As a church musician with 25+ years under my belt, I can assure that I play from memory all the time, as do a lot of my colleagues. It just happens when you play the same things day in and day out. .

I'm surprised that you're playing the same stuff all the time.

I don't attend church, but I know a few church organists, and they play from a couple of thick hymn books, each containing several hundred hymns. (I own one of them - a relic of my time as a music student when I was studying harmony). They are all excellent sight-readers but they never play hymns, voluntaries, preludes & postludes etc from memory. They never play the same preludes/postludes etc twice in the same month, because the congregation is the same every week. As for the hymns, they take their cue from the sermon for the service, in consultation with the pastor.


Gotta say this was my experience as a church and cathedral musician as well. In ten years professional experience, I never once saw an organist play anything from memory (or indeed any of my fellow singers), and one of the reasons was the demands of the job; with 30+ pieces a week to be performed, and no piece used more than twice in any given year (and most only once), there simply wasn't *time* to learn anything well enough to perform from memory. I appreciate the experience may be different elsewhere, however, and I'm happy to acknowledge those who become familiar with things over a long period of time.

Last edited by karvala; 08/27/17 05:28 PM.

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Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: piano2002] #2670920 08/27/17 05:42 PM
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For clarification:

"In Preparatory A, Preparatory B, and levels 1 to 7, two memory marks are awarded for each repertoire selection performed by memory for a total of six marks.
In levels 8 to 10, one mark will be deducted for each repertoire selection that is played with the music.
For the Associate Diploma (ARCT) in Piano Performance, memorization is compulsory. Candidates not performing from memory will receive comments only. Any selection played with the music will receive a mark of zero."


It would appear, then, that in the earlier grades (levels) up to 7, playing from memory earns bonus points, as an encouragement to memorization. Beyond that level, the long-standing tradition for classical pianists holds!

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Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: bennevis] #2670942 08/27/17 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by DanS

As a church musician with 25+ years under my belt, I can assure that I play from memory all the time, as do a lot of my colleagues. It just happens when you play the same things day in and day out. .

I'm surprised that you're playing the same stuff all the time.

I don't attend church, but I know a few church organists, and they play from a couple of thick hymn books, each containing several hundred hymns. (I own one of them - a relic of my time as a music student when I was studying harmony). They are all excellent sight-readers but they never play hymns, voluntaries, preludes & postludes etc from memory. They never play the same preludes/postludes etc twice in the same month, because the congregation is the same every week. As for the hymns, they take their cue from the sermon for the service, in consultation with the pastor.


Sorry in advance for getting off topic and for the self-centered post about to follow:

In regards to playing the same things day in and day out, I play 3-4 funerals a week; more in the fall/winter & less in the summer. It's the same 40 or so hymns, and really, 90% of it is the same 15 hymns or so. 2 or 3 different mass settings at almost every church. Both Schubert's and Bach/Gonoud Ave Maria in 5 or 6 keys, Ave Verum, etc. A lot of times, especially when you're waiting for the service to start, your just playing from memory/improvising while your looking for your cue. After a thousand funerals or so, you tend to not need the music; especially when you want to transition around from hymn to hymn quickly.

Weddings are pretty much the same thing (although I don't play nearly as many). 90% of the Entrances/Recessionals are the same 15 pieces or so. I have mostly all the entrances memorized since I have to keep an eye on how far the bride is from the altar and adjust accordingly. However, I always have the music out for entrances; don't want to screw up the Bride's entrance. For wedding prelude, I have about an hour's worth of classical piano and a bunch of organ pieces that I've been playing for years and years and years. I try to add a few new things each year.

Even moderately sized Catholic churches have 6 or sometimes even more services a weekend. You play 3 or 4 verses (or more for communion) of the same hymn 5 or 6 (or more) times in a weekend, you start to memorize them pretty quickly; or at least I do.

One the cantors I work with regularly tells the story of an elderly organist she used to work with. She would purportedly show up 5 minutes before a funeral, usually reeking of booze, and would start playing While Sheep May Safely Graze while she was still sliding across the bench!

A final thought: I usually do have the music out, but if it's something I've played hundreds (or even thousands) of times, I don't even look at the music or really pay much attention at all.

Sorry if this derails the initial question of the thread..

Re: RCM Grade 10 Exam [Re: piano2002] #2670944 08/27/17 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by piano2002
I am about to take my grade 10 RCM piano exam in December and I was wondering if anyone knew how much memorization mattered in this exam? I'm doing the 2016 syllabus and it says that if you don't memorize your piece, you'll lose 1 mark. Does this mean that if you restart a piece or if you have a memory slip in your exam that the most you can lose is one mark?
Thanks.

Are you looking to move forward to ARCT? Memory deductions will make qualifying for ARCT that much harder. A slip or restart won't cost you the deduction but if you aren't fully prepared to do from memory you may consider using the music to focus on musicality versus "memorizing". That's more what the focus is at grade 10 level (although the memorization is part of the optimal performance) . it's stressful enough and if you are not solid in memory you stand to lose a lot of marks as the piece won't flow. There's also nothing to stop you from playing some pieces from memory and some with music. It's a point per piece but if you think about list c, d or list e, one point is actually 10% of the value as those pieces are marked out of 10. List a is 12, list b is 14 and c,d and e are 10 each. Do you not feel you are prepared? There is still quite some time to the exam period


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