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When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... #2670116 08/23/17 04:56 PM
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Arghhh Offline OP
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...immediately wonder which of Bach's works belong with that number smile ha

(it's the prelude and fugue no. 19 in A Major)

Anybody else do this, or something similar???


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Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Arghhh] #2670131 08/23/17 06:56 PM
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LOL, but of course I would!

I also sort of see "BWV" whenever I see "BMW", too, and those aren't even the same letters.

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2670151 08/23/17 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes


I also sort of see "BWV" whenever I see "BMW", too, and those aren't even the same letters.

Strange, I also have the same confusion.

Whenever I see a BMW, I don't think: I wish I can afford one cry ; instead I think: how JSB would have wished to have driven one for his 400km trip to Lübeck to listen to his hero Buxtehude.

Of course, if JSB is alive today, BMW would undoubtedly have gifted JSB with their latest all-singing, all-dancing model so that he could make that journey in comfort in 2 hours (driving at 200km/h on the autobahn), while listening to his BWV 988 (without falling asleep of course.......) via his iPhone plugged into the USB socket of his BMW's hi-fi system.


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Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Arghhh] #2670159 08/23/17 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Arghhh
...immediately wonder which of Bach's works belong with that number smile ha

I'd try to pull alongside and give a thumbs-up -- and then ask, which one is that?

Quote
(it's the prelude and fugue no. 19 in A Major)

I still don't know which one that is. grin

The Ab major, I know.
The Bb major too.

A major???

Let's have a look......

I don't know it at all. For sure I've heard it, because I've heard 'complete' performances of the set. But, I don't know it at all.

Is it one of the particularly well known ones?

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2670344 08/24/17 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
LOL, but of course I would!

I also sort of see "BWV" whenever I see "BMW", too, and those aren't even the same letters.

For the BMWs I see if the plate is on a BMW car.


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Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Mark_C] #2670347 08/24/17 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C

A major???

Let's have a look......

I don't know it at all. For sure I've heard it, because I've heard 'complete' performances of the set. But, I don't know it at all.

Is it one of the particularly well known ones?

It doesn't appear to be. Typing "BWV 86" in the search bar in youtube, and then seeing what youtube suggests reveals that BWV 864 is not in the top ten completions of that search.

I recognize the prelude, and it sounds like a nice cheery prelude to work up for a church service prelude. The fugue, and actually much more of Book 2 as compared to Book 1, I find is kind of nondescript.


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Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Arghhh] #2670357 08/24/17 08:47 PM
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The part at 0:17 (which occurs later on too) sounds very familiar.
from the Prelude

Anyone know, is there the same kind of thing in some more well known Bach piece? (If not, I'm remembering it from this.)

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Arghhh] #2670360 08/24/17 09:12 PM
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In Ontario, we only have Bach's works from BWV 000 to BWV 999. I haven't had time to listen to them all, though after a bottle of wine I tried to play BWV 000 and it was strangely silent.

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Mark_C] #2670375 08/24/17 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
The part at 0:17 (which occurs later on too) sounds very familiar.
from the Prelude

Anyone know, is there the same kind of thing in some more well known Bach piece? (If not, I'm remembering it from this.)


This reminds of this section in the Toccata of Bach's Partita no. 6:

Starts at around 6:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjv4ESS2LqY

However it can be heard in other parts of the toccata as well, I just picked the most obvious to my ears.

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Bachian] #2670381 08/25/17 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by deerfield
Originally Posted by Mark_C
The part at 0:17 (which occurs later on too) sounds very familiar.
from the Prelude

Anyone know, is there the same kind of thing in some more well known Bach piece? (If not, I'm remembering it from this.)


This reminds of this section in the Toccata of Bach's Partita no. 6:

Starts at around 6:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjv4ESS2LqY

However it can be heard in other parts of the toccata as well, I just picked the most obvious to my ears.

Great get!! And thanks for mentioning it!

This is my favorite of the Partitas, and that section of the 1st movement might well be why this kind of passage grabs me as it does.

But that's not it. grin

You were right to point it out, and there's no excuse for my not having thought of it myself ha .....because it's such a similar thing, almost identical. But the thing I was thinking of is 'more identical' -- which would be hard to do, so maybe it was this prelude itself.

By the way: She does a couple of unusual things with the ornaments in that movement, or at least I think they're unusual:

-- She plays the ornaments before the beat. (I know that this part of it is unusual.)

-- She isn't consistent all the way through; she plays the ornaments in some places but not others. Maybe that's exactly how the score has it, but what I'm used to is that an ornament is played everywhere that the theme occurs (or almost everywhere).
Actually I should call it "subject," not theme; it's the subject of the fugue within the Toccata.

Also: She plays the rhythms of the Gavotte and the Gigue in the literal ways that they're written, which is what most people do. I'm for playing everything in those movements as triplets. A long time ago, a pianist/teacher convinced me that that's what Bach intended with his notation, and I still believe it. I don't know if that guy still does; he might well not. That's how it sometimes is with these things. smile

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Arghhh] #2670388 08/25/17 03:12 AM
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I don't know much about the Russian school of playing Bach (if there is such a thing lol) but she was a well known pedagogue and famous for her interpretations of Bach. There are other artists who also take personal liberties in the art of ornamentation (Gould for example) and for me, I find it refreshing rather than distracting that the same piece is not played the same way all the time. This also applies to rhythms to a certain extent. I remember an NPR interview with Perahia in which he says applies a certain amount of nuance in the rhythms while playing Bach to give his interpretations elasticity and a living pulse so the performance sounds natural and not mechanical.

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Bachian] #2670448 08/25/17 10:56 AM
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.....I just realized why I didn't think of that partita myself: because I think of the theme (subject) and its repetitions as being with the ornament. Without it, the impression (to me) is very different, especially when it's in a sequence as in the example here.

Anyway that's my excuse. grin

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Arghhh] #2671142 08/28/17 05:26 PM
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I love 864 smile the prelude is so graceful and the fugue is pure high-octane delight. I like the bouncy syncopations in the fugue.
https://soundcloud.com/heatherreichgott/bach-fugue-in-a-major-bwv-864

(don't know that partita too well though)


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Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: hreichgott] #2671192 08/28/17 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hreichgott
...(don't know that partita too well though)

It would be more well known if more people played the rhythms of the last two movements as they 'should' be played, which differs from a literal reading of the rhythms. smile

Played as written, I think those movements are total duds, which (if my impression is at all representative of how it is to others) in itself is maybe the strongest argument that it's wrong.

Let's see if I can find a performance online that does the movements 'right'....

JUBILATION!!!!!
I got it on the second recording of it that comes up on youtube, which is the first after the one that was linked before.

BTW, if you don't know the piece and don't know what's written in the score, there won't seem to be anything unusual about how he plays those movements; they will seem totally natural, and totally Bach. If you do know the piece, they might sound odd. BUT, I would suggest that the literal way of playing the rhythms is what's odd. Like, how the ----- does it make any sense for a gigue to be in a duple rhythm? I say that the 'normal' way of playing it would seem odd to you -- you'd be like, what the hey is this? -- if not that it's the familiar way of hearing it.
The literal way of playing those rhythms kills the piece.
(Those movements start at 24:02 and 26:15.)




.......in view of which, I'm surprised he doesn't do the same thing in this other piece -- the Prelude from the P & F in D major from Book 2 -- which invites such an interpretation almost as strongly, maybe just as strongly. I see that this recording is from 32 years ago (1985). Maybe he'd do it the other way now?



While we're not likely to find "proof" of what Bach intended, unless some authentic letter or something turns up where Bach says so, I think the brief passage early in the second half of this Prelude where the left hand has the six 16th notes per beat, together with the two supposed 8th notes in the right hand (at 1:33 here) .....I think that passage is awfully close to "proof."

If you play the right hand rhythm as literally written rather than as a triplet, it's COCKEYED --it's an awkward cross rhythm (because it would be essentially 2 beats in the right hand against 3 beats in the left hand), which is hard for me to imagine that Bach intended. Yes, it's possible to play it in a way that the cockeyed-ness is minimized, and Schiff does so; you might even feel it's not cockeyed at all. But it sort of is. smile

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Mark_C] #2671321 08/29/17 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by hreichgott
...(don't know that partita too well though)

It would be more well known if more people played the rhythms of the last two movements as they 'should' be played, which differs from a literal reading of the rhythms. smile

Played as written, I think those movements are total duds, which (if my impression is at all representative of how it is to others) in itself is maybe the strongest argument that it's wrong.

Let's see if I can find a performance online that does the movements 'right'....

JUBILATION!!!!!
I got it on the second recording of it that comes up on youtube, which is the first after the one that was linked before.

BTW, if you don't know the piece and don't know what's written in the score, there won't seem to be anything unusual about how he plays those movements; they will seem totally natural, and totally Bach. If you do know the piece, they might sound odd. BUT, I would suggest that the literal way of playing the rhythms is what's odd. Like, how the ----- does it make any sense for a gigue to be in a duple rhythm? I say that the 'normal' way of playing it would seem odd to you -- you'd be like, what the hey is this? -- if not that it's the familiar way of hearing it.
The literal way of playing those rhythms kills the piece.
(Those movements start at 24:02 and 26:15.)




.......in view of which, I'm surprised he doesn't do the same thing in this other piece -- the Prelude from the P & F in D major from Book 2 -- which invites such an interpretation almost as strongly, maybe just as strongly. I see that this recording is from 32 years ago (1985). Maybe he'd do it the other way now?



While we're not likely to find "proof" of what Bach intended, unless some authentic letter or something turns up where Bach says so, I think the brief passage early in the second half of this Prelude where the left hand has the six 16th notes per beat, together with the two supposed 8th notes in the right hand (at 1:33 here) .....I think that passage is awfully close to "proof."

If you play the right hand rhythm as literally written rather than as a triplet, it's COCKEYED --it's an awkward cross rhythm (because it would be essentially 2 beats in the right hand against 3 beats in the left hand), which is hard for me to imagine that Bach intended. Yes, it's possible to play it in a way that the cockeyed-ness is minimized, and Schiff does so; you might even feel it's not cockeyed at all. But it sort of is. smile


So by literal interpretation of the rhythm in the Gavotte you mean actually playing the dotted 16th's as half value of the triplet 8ths? I would understand (interpret) that the dotted 16th would be played with same value as the triplet 8th.

I guess in the gigue that rhythm is closer to being double dotted? I think I agree with you that it works better than reading it literally. There are lots of precedents that point to double dotting being a common performance practice.

I feel what helps make it work too is there's space between the notes that help keep the texture light. Some comparison with harpsichordist performances could be interesting to see how they interpret it.


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Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Vid] #2671325 08/29/17 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Vid
So by literal interpretation of the rhythm in the Gavotte you mean actually playing the dotted 16th's as half value of the triplet 8ths? I would understand (interpret) that the dotted 16th would be played with same value as the triplet 8th.

I don't know what you mean by "dotted 16th," because, well, there aren't any dotted 16th's!

There are dotted 8th's, and regular 16th's.
Do you mean the dotted 8th's?

Anyway, I can tell you more specifically what I was talking about.

On the Gavotte, I wasn't talking mainly about those beats with the dotted notes at all, although those beats are also affected.

The main thing is, the 1st beat of the movement, and all the other places where there's such a figure, i.e. an 8th note followed by two 16th's.

The "literal" way, which probably doesn't need explanation, is to play them just as written: an 8th followed by two 16th's.

What I'm talking about is playing that figure as a triplet.
And in that case, you probably want to also play the following dotted figure as a triplet, i.e. with the 16th note coming in a little sooner than where you'd play it if you viewed the figure in the usual dotted way.

Quote
I guess in the gigue that rhythm is closer to being double dotted? I think I agree with you that it works better than reading it literally. There are lots of precedents that point to double dotting being a common performance practice.

I agree that double dotting would be preferable to "literal," but that's not what I meant. I meant playing everything as triplets.

How to explain that.....OK, how about this:
It's as though you're counting 6 virtual little beats per beat, divided into two triplets -- 1-2-3-4-5-6 -- and the short notes in this movement come in on "6."
i.e. The opening is played like (I hope this is clear):
6 1.......6 1.......6 1.......

And then, when there are two 8th notes per beat, those two notes are played as though they were a triplet!
(quarter note and 8th note)

Or, maybe it's easier just to listen to how Schiff plays it. (That's what he does.)

Re: When you see "BWV 864" on a license plate and you... [Re: Mark_C] #2671337 08/29/17 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
There are dotted 8th's, and regular 16th's.
Do you mean the dotted 8th's?


Oops, yeah, I mean the dotted eights with 16th but I see that that's not what you're talking about exactly.

That's more clear now and in general you mean playing figures as triplets instead of the more literal duplet (I think). (is duplet a word?)

It may be easier to just listen to Schiff as you say. I enjoy listening to early music ensembles perform baroque music because they play with more rhythmic vitality than what you may find in the 'main stream'.


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