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Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
#2668247 08/15/17 12:06 PM
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Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked. It seems that this is a good thing - a beautiful, beautiful, pleasant keyboard. But without additional costs, absolutely useless thing. Use it for its intended purpose - as a replacement for the pianoforte impossible because of the very low volume. Everywhere in all official documents, the output power is 2x20W. But, in my sensation, it is unlikely that the power amplifier would give out even 1W.
So I have a question for Kawai James, please tell me which chips are on the output of the Kawai CN25 power amplifier? I ask, because I want to understand that this piano, in principle, is capable of providing the strength for which the buyer expects to read an advertising booklet. Maybe I have a broken piano.


Kawai CN25 (MIDI) + Garritan CFX Lite, The Grandeur, Pianoteq6 (demo)
i7/16Gb + Infrasonic Quartet (PCI)
Sherwood + Wharfdale 9.1
Beta 22 + Sennheiser HD 800, HD 650, Audeze LCD-2, HiFiMAN HE-6.
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Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668278 08/15/17 01:45 PM
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I'd say certainly you have a deficient piano. It should be easily capable of sounding as loud as you want . . .I've played these, and they sound nice.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668286 08/15/17 02:07 PM
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Do you have headphones connected to the piano and sound coming through them by any chance? laugh


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668316 08/15/17 04:06 PM
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I also connected the headphones. LCD-2 is almost not audible, HD650 - even at maximum volume is not loud enough. How can live without a volume reserve?
I found Block Diagram CN27 on the network. If this is similar to the CN25, then the output of the speakers power amplifier is TPA3118D2. And at the output of the headphone amplifier NJM4556.
Now I understand that I was even embarrassed. TPA3118D2 is an amplifier of class D relevant on compact portable equipment, but not on a home piano of an average price category.
The other day I'll be looking Kawai in stores to compare its volume with mine.


Kawai CN25 (MIDI) + Garritan CFX Lite, The Grandeur, Pianoteq6 (demo)
i7/16Gb + Infrasonic Quartet (PCI)
Sherwood + Wharfdale 9.1
Beta 22 + Sennheiser HD 800, HD 650, Audeze LCD-2, HiFiMAN HE-6.
Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668318 08/15/17 04:26 PM
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I can't even tell what the complaint is here (and have learned to be a bit wary of broadside issues like this). What exactly is the problem being faced with the internal speakers? OP seems to have knowledge of the component level, but when he says the amp isn't even putting out 1W, does he mean the sound volume is excessively low? That it gets loud but becomes distorted? I feel the description of the problem can range anywhere from "obvious component defect" all the way to "unrealistic audiophile expectations."

I've definitely had headphones that output oddly quiet volumes from DPs, so there's a lot of variability here. But the internal speaker volume should be fairly uniform across devices. Amad23, can you post a YT video demonstrating the problem you're facing?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668334 08/15/17 05:16 PM
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Most digital pianos are not able to drive high-end headphones. You need something with low impedance and high efficiency to get reasonable volumes out of them.

Also you can pay the price of a low-midrange digital piano for speakers alone and add the same amount again for an amplifier to drive those. But if you put an equal amount towards a digital piano instead, you end up spending most of it on the rather complicated action and the tone generator R&D, while the built-in amplification section and speakers are mostly no-frills stuff.


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Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
Gombessa #2668360 08/15/17 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I can't even tell what the complaint is here (and have learned to be a bit wary of broadside issues like this). What exactly is the problem being faced with the internal speakers? OP seems to have knowledge of the component level, but when he says the amp isn't even putting out 1W, does he mean the sound volume is excessively low? That it gets loud but becomes distorted? I feel the description of the problem can range anywhere from "obvious component defect" all the way to "unrealistic audiophile expectations."

I've definitely had headphones that output oddly quiet volumes from DPs, so there's a lot of variability here. But the internal speaker volume should be fairly uniform across devices. Amad23, can you post a YT video demonstrating the problem you're facing?

Why not make a list of questions for the OP instead directing your post to other members? Be part of the solution instead of feeding the conundrum.

Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
o0Ampy0o #2668363 08/15/17 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by o0Ampy0o

Why not make a list of questions for the OP instead directing your post to other members? Be part of the solution instead of feeding the conundrum.


I did direct my question to the OP. If he wants to upload a video showing what's wrong, I think it would help out everyone trying to help him.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
JoeT #2668364 08/15/17 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Most digital pianos are not able to drive high-end headphones. You need something with low impedance and high efficiency to get reasonable volumes out of them.

Maybe the OP likes to listen at higher volume levels than I consider to be adequate but the HD 650's are 300 Ohms and the average DP can power them at comfortable listening levels, this, not to be mistaken for powering 300 Ohms headphones to get the best audiophile performance out of them.

I have the 300 Ohms HD 580's and HD 600's and they are fine powered by a Casio PX 350/150 and Yamaha MOX.

Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
Gombessa #2668370 08/15/17 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by o0Ampy0o

Why not make a list of questions for the OP instead directing your post to other members? Be part of the solution instead of feeding the conundrum.

I did direct my question to the OP. If he wants to upload a video showing what's wrong, I think it would help out everyone trying to help him.

Bolded and Underlined is what I was referring to:

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I can't even tell what the complaint is here (and have learned to be a bit wary of broadside issues like this). What exactly is the problem being faced with the internal speakers? OP seems to have knowledge of the component level, but when he says the amp isn't even putting out 1W, does he mean the sound volume is excessively low? That it gets loud but becomes distorted? I feel the description of the problem can range anywhere from "obvious component defect" all the way to "unrealistic audiophile expectations."

I've definitely had headphones that output oddly quiet volumes from DPs, so there's a lot of variability here. But the internal speaker volume should be fairly uniform across devices. Amad23, can you post a YT video demonstrating the problem you're facing?

Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668396 08/15/17 11:56 PM
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I get what you were saying. The initial questions were posed rhetorically to illustrate the problem, and again, the question that would help the most, and would uniformly answer everything else, was asked directly of the OP. Sorry if it seemed too roundabout/indirect.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668397 08/16/17 12:01 AM
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What's goin' on here, then? It's obvious what the problem is from the question; he has a faulty item and it should go back from whence it came . . . .sooner rather than later.


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Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668408 08/16/17 01:55 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. The night passed, I calmed down a little. And decided that not everything is so bad. And life is beautiful if it has music and audiophile equipment. And there was a reason to do diy.
I will clarify my problems:
1. Explicitly very low volume through the speakers. You can not use the piano.
2. Insufficient volume through the HD650. You can use it but it's limited.
3. Distortions, etc. At any volume the "unrealized expectations of an audiophile".
Has anyone used the Sound Level Meter on the tablet? They need to be calibrated to compare the results on two different tablets?
I'll try to post a video later.

Last edited by amad23; 08/16/17 01:58 AM.

Kawai CN25 (MIDI) + Garritan CFX Lite, The Grandeur, Pianoteq6 (demo)
i7/16Gb + Infrasonic Quartet (PCI)
Sherwood + Wharfdale 9.1
Beta 22 + Sennheiser HD 800, HD 650, Audeze LCD-2, HiFiMAN HE-6.
Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668415 08/16/17 02:56 AM
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This is a long shot, but is LOCAL CONTROL turned on? Refer to the Midi Setup Manual P4.

Have you tried a Factory Reset? Page 43? of the manual. Press and HOLD both Metronome and Sound Select Buttons and press Power On switch. After all LEDS have flashed, turn off and then on.

Last edited by Just Alan; 08/16/17 03:09 AM.

1993 Roland JV1000 76 note workstation synth with Pop and VE-GS1 expansion boards ] 1994 Roland JV1080 Multi-timbral sound module ] 1994 Roland KR4500 Intelligent Piano ] 2008 Korg MicroX sound module ] 2015 Kawai MP7 Digital Stage Piano
Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668422 08/16/17 03:59 AM
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Hello amad23,

Originally Posted by amad23
So I have a question for Kawai James, please tell me which chips are on the output of the Kawai CN25 power amplifier?


I'm afraid I cannot provide this kind of information on a public forum.

Originally Posted by amad23
Maybe I have a broken piano.


Assuming that you purchased the instrument new, and from a Kawai dealer, my recommendation would be to contact that dealer for assistance, and perhaps check the other Kawai models in their store for comparison.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668426 08/16/17 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by amad23
Thanks for the feedback. The night passed, I calmed down a little. And decided that not everything is so bad. And life is beautiful if it has music and audiophile equipment. And there was a reason to do diy.
I will clarify my problems:
1. Explicitly very low volume through the speakers. You can not use the piano.
2. Insufficient volume through the HD650. You can use it but it's limited.
3. Distortions, etc. At any volume the "unrealized expectations of an audiophile".
Has anyone used the Sound Level Meter on the tablet? They need to be calibrated to compare the results on two different tablets?
I'll try to post a video later.


When I asked Kawai Europe about the using the Sennheiser HD650's (300 ohm impedance) with the Kawai MP7. I got this reply
Quote
This combination won’t be suitable without any additional headphone amp. Without headphone amp the impedance should be less than 100 Ohm.
.
I don't know the power of the headphone amp in the CN25; however, it is easy to contact Kawai by email and check with them whether you'll need a headphone amp to power the HD650s.

Last edited by Doug M.; 08/16/17 04:08 AM.

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Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
amad23 #2668429 08/16/17 04:40 AM
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That was unlucky.
Hard initial failure or software setting?
I recommend you to do a factory reset first.

P39
>Press and hold the METRONOME and SOUND SELECT buttons
simultaneously, then turn the power on.
The LED indicators for all the buttons will start to flash.
Turn the CN25 digital piano off and then on.
The CN25 digital piano will be restored to its factory default
setting.


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pro-tac.jpn.org/
--------------------------------------

Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
Pro-TAC #2668435 08/16/17 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro-TAC
That was unlucky.
Hard initial failure or software setting?
I recommend you to do a factory reset first.


If you mean that I was trying to do something with the insides of the piano, then no sooner had I, all out of the box.
The reset produced - did not help. But wife claims that it's even better, neighbors will not beat me.

Last edited by amad23; 08/16/17 05:15 AM.

Kawai CN25 (MIDI) + Garritan CFX Lite, The Grandeur, Pianoteq6 (demo)
i7/16Gb + Infrasonic Quartet (PCI)
Sherwood + Wharfdale 9.1
Beta 22 + Sennheiser HD 800, HD 650, Audeze LCD-2, HiFiMAN HE-6.
Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
peterws #2668444 08/16/17 07:01 AM
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Too much analysis!
I think these comments are right to the point:
Originally Posted by peterws
I'd say certainly you have a deficient piano. It should be easily capable of sounding as loud as you want . . .I've played these, and they sound nice.
Originally Posted by peterws
What's goin' on here, then? It's obvious what the problem is from the question; he has a faulty item and it should go back from whence it came . . . .sooner rather than later.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Assuming that you purchased the instrument new, and from a Kawai dealer, my recommendation would be to contact that dealer for assistance, and perhaps check the other Kawai models in their store for comparison.
The piano should play loudly. It doesn't. Something is wrong. The piano is new and does not meet expectations. KJ suggests a sound course of action. I don't know what else there is to say here. Armchair quarterbacking won't fix the problem.

Re: Today I bought the Kawai CN25. And I'm shocked.
Kawai James #2668445 08/16/17 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello amad23,

Originally Posted by amad23
So I have a question for Kawai James, please tell me which chips are on the output of the Kawai CN25 power amplifier?


I'm afraid I cannot provide this kind of information on a public forum.

Originally Posted by amad23
Maybe I have a broken piano.


Assuming that you purchased the instrument new, and from a Kawai dealer, my recommendation would be to contact that dealer for assistance, and perhaps check the other Kawai models in their store for comparison.

Kind regards,
James
x


Hi Kawai James
The right Kawai to hide any information. But track and correct me if I'm wrong in my reasoning.
If the information is hidden (and used by TPA3118D2 or something else of class D) - means Kawai understands that it can scare off the buyer. So, perhaps, I made a bad decision, as a result of Kawai's conscious decisions to hide information. So I was deceived consciously (though Kawai did not do anything, and did not fall to the lie).
Moreover, YT shows that earlier on the CN25 a normal power amplifier was used, judging by the presence of a large radiator. And being interested in the opinion "how does CN25 sound?", You can get an answer about the piano with another amplifier.
Right or wrong?

I bought a piano through an online store, and sending it back is a big headache. And I got used to it in two days.

Last edited by amad23; 08/16/17 07:16 AM.

Kawai CN25 (MIDI) + Garritan CFX Lite, The Grandeur, Pianoteq6 (demo)
i7/16Gb + Infrasonic Quartet (PCI)
Sherwood + Wharfdale 9.1
Beta 22 + Sennheiser HD 800, HD 650, Audeze LCD-2, HiFiMAN HE-6.
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