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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: Falsch] #2663996
07/26/17 06:17 AM
07/26/17 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Falsch
[quote=josefhofmann]...
An $50 whisky is probably better than an $10 wine, but if someone doesn't like whisky, he'll probably label the wine as being the better drink.


Inappropriate comparison IMHO !

It's like if you had said "even if an $50 lobster is probably better than an $10 cup of strawberries ...".
You can't compare lobsters with strawberries, and you can't compare whisky and wine !

But of course, you can compare acoustic and digital pianos smile

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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2664003
07/26/17 06:49 AM
07/26/17 06:49 AM
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Yes, you can compare whiskey and wine! And beer, too. But that's not at all relevant here.

Also, I wish people would stop using "arguably" when expressing an opinion, as in ...
-- "Digital pianos arguably do have better keyboards than acoustics."

Anything is arguable ...
-- "The moon is arguably made of cheese."

If there's something to be said, say it. There's no "arguably" about it.

-- "Digital pianos do have better keyboards than acoustics."
-- "The moon is made of cheese."

The statements are no more or less true without the "arguably".

(Just my three cents.)

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: Bambers] #2664006
07/26/17 07:25 AM
07/26/17 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bambers
Digital pianos arguably do have better keyboards than acoustics. Acoustics are limited by the physics of making the note sound. Things like the escapement notch are an imperfection as is the grading from top to bottom.

Digital actions have less to go wrong and need less work over time, can be more responsive and faster.

Much of the work in the 'better' digital actions is trying to recreate the imperfections of an acoustic grand

This is usually preferred as it makes transitioning to an acoustic easier. I'm not sure it's objectively 'better' though.
I'm with MacMacMac here.

How can one possibly make a statement such as 'Digital pianos arguably do have..." without providing the evidence on which to base and defend your argument?

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2664016
07/26/17 07:58 AM
07/26/17 07:58 AM
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With regard to keyboards - I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that, for the purposes of this particular thread, 'keyboard' refers to the physical structure with which the hands interact.

I have played pipe organs, electronic organs, harpsichords, clavichords, DPs and APs for the past 60 years or so as a professional musician.

It has never occurred to me to judge a pipe organ keyboard as superior or inferior to a harpsichord keyboard or an acoustic piano keyboard. They each serve a unique purpose and are each played using a slightly different technique. They do not attempt to imitate each other.

In my opinion, it is the same with a DP keyboard and an AP keyboard. Each is designed to serve a unique purpose. The DP keyboard must activate an electronic sound generation and the AP keyboard must activate a mechanical sound generation. If one has learned on and played only DP keyboards, then one has, it is to be hoped, been taught the techniques required to control the DP keyboard and make the best music possible. The same applies to AP keyboards.

If you want DPs to imitate APs, the best solution, IMO, is to buy an AP and make it look like a DP so your audience thinks you are playing a really good DP.

Last edited by prout; 07/26/17 07:59 AM.
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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2664022
07/26/17 08:14 AM
07/26/17 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by flightcontrol
I also was surprised to see that the clp 685 is very heavy in terms of the touch-weight. While a Bösendorfer has 48g to 55g, the clp 585 already had 60g to 80g. The clp 685 is even more heavy, which is also shown in the video comparison from Tony...

I don't know how much research you have done yet, and I also don't know if high end DPs can imitate an AP with regard to touch-weight.

The touch-weight of an acoustic piano is measured with the damper pedal pressed, that is, the weight of the damper is removed from the key before measuring down-weight and up-weight. This is significant and has a major effect on piano technique. One must be aware that the effort required to accelerate a key to a certain velocity (e.g. mf) is much less when the damper is raised than when the damper is not raised. This fine control is part of the life-long practice regimen of a professional pianist.

If the DP touch-weight does not change when the dampers are raised, then the effort required to accelerate the key to a certain velocity does not change. This permanently affects your technique. This is not a problem, just a reality. It means that comparing touch-weight between a DP and an AP is like comparing apples and oranges.

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: prout] #2664051
07/26/17 10:05 AM
07/26/17 10:05 AM
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prout: This depends upon expectations. To me it's not apples and oranges.
Originally Posted by prout
If the DP touch-weight does not change when the dampers are raised, then the effort required to accelerate the key to a certain velocity does not change. This permanently affects your technique. This is not a problem, just a reality. It means that comparing touch-weight between a DP and an AP is like comparing apples and oranges.

I expect an apple to be very different from an orange. There's no reason to expect otherwise. Comparing them with any other expectation is silly.

But I expect a digital piano action to be the same as that of a grand piano. So to me it's a proper comparison. It's not apples and oranges. They do differ. Quite a bit. But the comparison is valid because I expect them to behave the same.

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2664060
07/26/17 10:35 AM
07/26/17 10:35 AM
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MacMacMac. I understand your point of view. I guess we will have to disagree.

I flew both DC3s and Jets. They both are airplanes. They both do the same job creating transportation for someone or something. They both have wings and engines and all the accoutrements required to operate them. But they require different handling techniques. This difference got a lot of prop pilots transitioning to jets back in the 50s and 60s into deadly trouble.

Example, reciprocating engines respond to power changes from idle to 100% within about one second. Jet engines took as much as 8-10 seconds to do the same thing. In an emergency go-around when the aircraft was just 50 feet off the runway on an aborted landing, jets would crash because the pilots were used to immediate power response. Techniques and procedures had to be changed to accommodate the differences.

The new composite actions on acoustic pianos respond differently in comparison to wood actions. This difference has a subtle effect on one's playing. If a new piano student never plays on wood actions, they will not notice the difference and may benefit from the different control in a manner that actually gives them musical options not available to wood action pianos.

Transistor amplifiers can get extremely close, with very complex circuitry, to imitating vacuum tube amplifiers and their inherent distortion. Some would ask why would you want distorted sound from your tube amp when you can have pure, sterile sound from your transistor amp.

For me, the examples above are apples and oranges, both fruit at least both apples, but one does not imitate the other.

edit: I re-read your post and responded incorrectly. My statement in bold was meant to point out that every DP I have played, and as far as I know, except maybe hybrids (I don't even know what a 'hybrid' is), don't change the physical weight of the key when the damper pedal is pressed. Acoustics do. This is a major difference - as big a difference as between an AP and a pipe organ keyboard, either tracker or electric, which are also different from each other. Most tracker (mechanical) keyboards increase downweight massively as ranks (stops) and couplers are added. Electrical keyboards exhibit no change in down-weight.

Last edited by prout; 07/26/17 01:22 PM.
Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: prout] #2664094
07/26/17 12:16 PM
07/26/17 12:16 PM
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We used to have DC9s flying between Douglas (IOM) and Blackpool airports.
They were an experience never to forget. Wonderful, speedy take off from Douglas. Engines (I think there was more than one) shut down over Blackpool Tower; the plane floated in mid air before up ending, plummeting vertically down; levelling up and landing perfectly. The sound accompaniment was awesome.


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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: peterws] #2664108
07/26/17 12:51 PM
07/26/17 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
We used to have DC9s flying between Douglas (IOM) and Blackpool airports.
They were an experience never to forget. Wonderful, speedy take off from Douglas. Engines (I think there was more than one) shut down over Blackpool Tower; the plane floated in mid air before up ending, plummeting vertically down; levelling up and landing perfectly. The sound accompaniment was awesome.
That would be exciting, especially if you were a passenger on the airplane!
laugh

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2664119
07/26/17 01:53 PM
07/26/17 01:53 PM
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UK
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Quote
How can one possibly make a statement such as 'Digital pianos arguably do have..." without providing the evidence on which to base and defend your argument?


eh? the 'arguably' is a spurious figure of speech, feel free to hate that but I did follow with points (arguments) such as the escapement being an imperfection and maintainability - and yes there are always exceptions to the latter but a simple action generally unaffected by climate changes is going to need less maintenance than a complex one that's, with the exception of a couple of manufacturers, made of wood.

At any rate, my point, which seemed to initially get rather spectacularly missed by some, was that a digital keyboard is only 'inferior' when considering it as an imitation of an acoustic piano keyboard. If it wasn't a necessity of the mechanics of making a piano work I doubt acoustic manufacturers would have had a touch-weight difference across the keyboard and they certainly wouldn't have the let-off interfering, however subtly, with the key-press.

Perhaps I'm hypothesising as most digital pianos are attempting to emulate acoustics and generally try to simulate them as much as they can, warts and all, to the extremes of the novus where they've taken the 'dump an acoustic action in a DP' method a step further with the damper pedal, only missing the soft pedal shift really. However, there are fewer physical restrictions that apply to a simple digital piano action than an acoustic one.

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2664121
07/26/17 02:04 PM
07/26/17 02:04 PM
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Bambers. I agree with your statement that "...a digital keyboard is only 'inferior' when considering it as an imitation of an acoustic piano keyboard." You will see that if you read my posts above.

However, most people here on the forum spend vast amounts of time, energy, and money trying to make a DP sound and feel like an AP. With few exceptions, IMO, most DP manufactures are doing the same.

If we use your premise that a DP is not an imitation of an AP, but an instrument in its own right, then one must be very careful not to excpect that the technique of playing a DP is transferable to an AP. I can attest that playing multiple instruments (organ, harpsichord, piano) makes you an adequate and serviceable musician, but a master of none. I have not touched an organ in 5 years, concentrated only on piano, and I have learned how much damage to my piano technique was done by playing other instruments.

Last edited by prout; 07/26/17 02:04 PM.
Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2664509
07/28/17 06:44 AM
07/28/17 06:44 AM
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Strange. I just noted that the Yamaha CLP-685 PE was removed from Thomann's home page (probably the biggest retailer of musical instruments in Northern Europe - at least on the continent). Before you could find it going to this link:
https://www.thomann.de/intl/am/yamaha_clp_685_pe.htm
Also a search doesn't bring it up anymore (only the pearl white version).
Now this kind of post might be outdated if Thomann fixes it, and that will make me look ridiculous, but anyway. That's the way it is at the moment.
I wrote customer service who told me that they just sold the last one and they don't have anymore. I wrote back and reiterated that I was talking about CLP-685 PE - not CLP-585 PE (as I had already stated in my first mail - but just to make sure). I also asked customer service if they could give me an explanation as to why they would choose not to sell the 685 PE, if that is really the case. I doubt they would let me in on that if it were the case. But it's probably all an error, and in 30 minutes this post will just look stupid.

EDIT: btw, the last delivery date I saw on their home page before it disappeared was the 4. of August.

Last edited by zob; 07/28/17 06:46 AM.
Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: zob] #2664541
07/28/17 10:00 AM
07/28/17 10:00 AM
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HI, this is strange
They say
Sorry! The item Yamaha CLP-685 PE is not part of our current product range anymore.


Yamaha CLP-685, Yamaha U1F
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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: leif] #2664576
07/28/17 01:02 PM
07/28/17 01:02 PM
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Exactly leifmalm. That's why I wrote them in the first place. Anyway. Costumer support now returned with a new answer (I must say they are fast, if not 100% precise). The message this time was. It is a misunderstanding, and it will be in stock the 1. of August. It's is still not on their site though, but at least they are now aware of the problem (if there's a communication link between customer support and web-team).

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: prout] #2664621
07/28/17 05:01 PM
07/28/17 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by peterws
We used to have DC9s flying between Douglas (IOM) and Blackpool airports.
They were an experience never to forget. Wonderful, speedy take off from Douglas. Engines (I think there was more than one) shut down over Blackpool Tower; the plane floated in mid air before up ending, plummeting vertically down; levelling up and landing perfectly. The sound accompaniment was awesome.
That would be exciting, especially if you were a passenger on the airplane!
laugh


I rather think the pilot was an extrovert . . .And, yes. I was on the bl**dy thing! Wings flapping like those of a Canada goose . . .


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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2665592
08/02/17 07:52 AM
08/02/17 07:52 AM
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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2665622
08/02/17 10:40 AM
08/02/17 10:40 AM
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On Monday I took delivery of my new piano, a CLP-645. It is really wonderful and I am extremely happy with it. After nearly six months of shopping/playtesting/deliberating I feel like I made the right decision.

Piano was delivered and assembled by my music store, along with a complimentary bench. The touch of the keys is fantastic, and the sound is incredible: full, bright, clear. All the piano sounds are really good but the CFX is incredible. It looks beautiful too.

Small niggle: I was surprised (and a bit annoyed) to find that the piano doesn't seem to support Bluetooth MIDI. The Bluetooth seems to be only for audio, which I find strange. Most other DPs with bluetooth support MIDI, and sometimes audio as an extra add-on. (That is the case with Kawai and Roland). Here however I can't seem to get MIDI transfer over BT. Audio works nicely, but I'd find MIDI much more useful - so I have to stick with a cable which is a shame...

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Yamaha CLP-645 Soundcloud
Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2665638
08/02/17 11:36 AM
08/02/17 11:36 AM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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You might want to share your purchase information in the Prices Paid thread.

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: alphonsus] #2665640
08/02/17 11:45 AM
08/02/17 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by alphonsus
I was surprised (and a bit annoyed) to find that the piano doesn't seem to support Bluetooth MIDI. The Bluetooth seems to be only for audio, which I find strange. ]


Are you sure about that? I was testing the same model in a shop in Europe, and for me the Bluetooth Midi and the Bluetooth Audio was working at the same time! It had 2 Bluetooth devices, one with a name "Yamaha something", and one "MD-BT01", just like the external Bluetooth Midi. I thought, ther is one built in. And now I really hope, that it was not just connected...

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: Patrik Raw] #2665714
08/02/17 04:14 PM
08/02/17 04:14 PM
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The MD-BT01 is listed as an accessory for the CLP-series on Yamaha's site. So you probably need to buy them if you want midi over Bluetooth.
https://europe.yamaha.com/en/produc...va/clp-685/accessories.html#product-tabs

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