Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
112 registered members (Amedeus, ajames, anamnesis, Almaviva, Agent88, 25 invisible), 1,849 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
#2665235 - 07/31/17 01:57 PM How to position the piano in the room?  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
Full Member
Ardeus  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
I have a new piano arriving tomorrow and I am trying to forsee in advance acoustic problems that I will have to solve.

It's a Kawai RX-5 and it has a very sweet and mellow tone,

Here's the room and the options to place the piano:

[Linked Image]

I already noticed a bathroom like reverberation around the area where the piano is going to be. The worst problem is next to that 180 cms wall,

After the piano is in place, it will be difficult to move furniture around so I am trying to figure out the best use I can make of 2 book cases that I can place around the piano.

One of them is very tall and the other is around 170 cms high.

I would rather get away with just one of them so that that area will not become too cluttered.

So, what would be:

- The best orientation for the piano, in terms of acoustic? At the moment I am inclined to the option B, both for aesthetic reasons (it seems that the piano is more faced towards the room and therefore is more a part of the room) and because I will not be facing a wall.

- The best place to put the book cases?

If I reduce the reverberation too much, won't the piano sound too dull, having such a mellow tone to start with?

The floor has tiles and the rest of the room has normal furniture and there are 2 big glass windows on the opposite corner of the piano.


Last edited by Ardeus; 07/31/17 02:16 PM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2665249 - 07/31/17 02:39 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,618
JohnSprung Online content
4000 Post Club Member
JohnSprung  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,618
Reseda, California

I'd say B, only tuck the tail of the piano even closer into the corner, closer to the 180 cm wall. That gives you more room to get in and out. The lid directs the sound away from the acoustically problematic wall. Once it's there, you can tell if you need any more acoustic treatment. You'll have a nice place for a bass trap in that corner to the left of the piano.


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
#2665274 - 07/31/17 04:23 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,683
David-G Online content
1000 Post Club Member
David-G  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,683
London
I can't comment on the acoustics aspect, but for aesthetic reasons I like option B. My piano is angled rather less - I would suggest something mid-way between your options A and B. That will still look very nice. It will still look, as you said, "more a part of the room".

#2665276 - 07/31/17 04:29 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 123
dhull100 Offline
Full Member
dhull100  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 123
North Tx
Play before the movers leave to make sure it is at least tolerable. Congrats

(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2665282 - 07/31/17 04:52 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,335
Rickster Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Rickster  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,335
Georgia, USA
I may be the odd-ball here, but I like option C the best. It seems easier to get to and from the piano and the sound projection would not be bad. Option A would be my second choice.

But hey, it's your piano and your home, and congratulations!! thumb

Enjoy!!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2665284 - 07/31/17 04:57 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
Full Member
Ardeus  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Thanks for the tips. I will go for option B.

It's a big piano enclosed in a small area and I am a bit worried.

I am normally most bothered by middle tones and those are the ones that I guess will be most affected by the bad acoustics of that area of the room.

I will try the piano without anything and I will add stuff as needed. If needed, I will get some bass traps.

How difficult is it to insert or remove a rug from underneath a piano? Is it something 2 people can do?

Are there any situations where the sound is better without a rug underneath the piano?

I have no experience in this, but my guess is that the near refections sound bad and the distant reflexions sound good, especially in middle and high frequencies.


.

#2665286 - 07/31/17 05:14 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 756
Karl Watson Online content
500 Post Club Member
Karl Watson  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 756
Ardeus:

I agree with the Rickster on this one : C, for sure.

Karl Watson
Staten Island, NY
kw35@si.rr.com

#2665288 - 07/31/17 05:18 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
Full Member
Ardeus  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Rick and Karl, in option C, the lid opens to a corner with really bad acoustics. Shouldn't the lid open up to the room?

You may remember I tried another piano in a room with terrible acoustics and after a few minutes I couldn't stand the sound of the piano.

I already made a few tests with my own voice, by placing a rug on the floor and on that 180 wall. There was a dramatic effect by placing the rug on the wall.

I guess these tests don't say much about what's going to happen with the bass. The books may both diffuse and absorb bass frequencies to some extent.

What about the wall behind me when I play the piano?

#2665310 - 07/31/17 07:54 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,618
JohnSprung Online content
4000 Post Club Member
JohnSprung  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,618
Reseda, California
Originally Posted by Ardeus

How difficult is it to insert or remove a rug from underneath a piano? Is it something 2 people can do?
.


Yes, we've done it with two people: The Leg Lifter and the Rug Wrangler. It takes some planning, rolling, and folding to do efficiently.


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
#2665319 - 07/31/17 08:54 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,335
Rickster Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Rickster  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,335
Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by Ardeus
Rick and Karl, in option C, the lid opens to a corner with really bad acoustics. Shouldn't the lid open up to the room?

If I'm interpreting the layout of the room correctly, the lid opens to project the sound toward the north-west corner of the big room. It doesn't look like the short wall would interfere with sound projection.

But like the others said, before the movers leave, position the piano in each scenario and see what you think. And, even after the movers are long-gone, if you want to reposition, get a couple of friends/family with a good healthy back and gather around the piano and lift up on the weight of the piano a bit and move it slightly on its casters.

Either way, congratulations on your new grand piano!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2665322 - 07/31/17 09:08 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 426
MH1963 Offline
Full Member
MH1963  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 426
My room is similar and I have mine set up like option B. I like this arrangement. It sounds good and I very much would dislike facing the wall. Just make sure you have enough room to scoot the bench out however much you need.


Oongawa

'63 Mason & Hamlin Model A

[Linked Image]

Working on: Chopin - Mazurka 7 No. 2 / The Prayer - Coates Arrangement / Einaudi - Nefeli
#2665324 - 07/31/17 09:22 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,369
WhoDwaldi Offline
2000 Post Club Member
WhoDwaldi  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,369
SE USA
I'd rather put it smack-dab in the center of the large, rectangular part of the room!

I know very few people who have their pianos still placed as first delivered. You kinda have to live with them for a while, then move them around.

The piano biz needs more feng shui consultants.


WhoDwaldi
Howard 550 (by Kawai) 5' 10"
#2665327 - 07/31/17 09:45 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 756
Karl Watson Online content
500 Post Club Member
Karl Watson  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 756
Ardeus:

I apologise. I didn't realise that your room is a performance venue. I use my piano for work and so my concern is that it's almost always too loud, especially in the room itself. It seems to be a losing battle for me to get ANY of my pianos soft enough.

Karl

#2665331 - 07/31/17 10:10 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,548
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,548
Oakland
What I would consider is if there is enough room to remove the action for service, and whether you will be playing with others. Acoustics can be dealt with. Too little room or bad sightlines are more difficult.

Of course, my first rule of piano placement is that the legs go down!


Semipro Tech
#2665360 - 08/01/17 01:53 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 26
vancamp Offline
Full Member
vancamp  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by Ardeus

How difficult is it to insert or remove a rug from underneath a piano? Is it something 2 people can do?
.


This may depend somewhat on how large of a rug. I needed to put a 12' x 15' rug under my GX-5, and the movers who were helping me decided that it would be easiest to take the piano down half way, move it out of the way on the dolly, then set it back up after positioning the rug. With a large rug, there becomes a logistical issue of where to lift from while not on top of the rug.

#2665366 - 08/01/17 03:29 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,755
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member
AJB  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,755
England/Switzerland
You are overthinking this. Pianos are on wheels. It is not that difficult to move them around in a room. You will not know what is best until you've played around with it a bit. It is not just sound, it is what looks good with the lid up, and what is most convenient for the pianist to get access. If you are anything like me you will need somewhere close at hand to keep scores that you can reach without getting up, and somewhere for your coffee!

Enjoy the new arrival. Plan to move it around a few times in the next few weeks.


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
#2665438 - 08/01/17 12:33 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 209
Oasismfg Offline
Full Member
Oasismfg  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 209
So Cal
I say C without a doubt, I could never stand being backed into a corner for acoustic reasons. Your perception will likely be extremely bass heavy in the corner unless you give it significant acoustic treatment, meaning a bass trap in the corner, which would leave no room to sit. I would tuck the tail into the left corner of C, and still add a bass trap (a super wedge) in the right corner. The wall behind you will then be angled away from you, so you shouldn't need anything there, unless you want it. I would probably play with the angle a little bit, maybe somewhere between A and C.

Edit: I would also consider acoustic panels on the 180 and 350 cm walls if necessary.

Last edited by Oasismfg; 08/01/17 12:43 PM.
#2665457 - 08/01/17 01:51 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
Full Member
Ardeus  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
[Linked Image]

There it is smile

You guys were right, I think I will be moving it around a lot over the next days.

I am starting to think that each piano may require very different approaches.

This one has a very mellow tone and in fact I think I prefer not to have a rug underneath it. The rug seems to affect mostly the treble.

When the lid opens more in the direction of the wall, the sound gets muddier. I definitely prefer the lid a little bit open because it brightens the sound, especially in the higher registers.

Tomorrow I will try the C option as you guys suggested and see what happens. Thanks a lot for the explanations.

#2665474 - 08/01/17 03:03 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 503
FrankCox Online content
500 Post Club Member
FrankCox  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 503
Melville Saskatchewan
The door behind it is for a quick escape in case of tomatoes and old shoes, I assume. smile

Seriously, that's a nice looking setup.


If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Currently playing both kinds of music: Country and Western!
Casio Celviano AP-650
#2665475 - 08/01/17 03:07 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 144
johnstaf Offline
Full Member
johnstaf  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 144
Dublin
It looks fantastic, and I'm sure it sounds even better. I hope you have many happy years together!

#2665476 - 08/01/17 03:11 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,808
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BruceD  Offline

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,808
Victoria, BC
That looks like a very nice arrangement. Is there enough room in the piano's current position, to pull the action when action work is needed?

You might want also to put a small rug under the pedals and anchored by the chair to prevent your heel marking the floor, unless you always play barefoot or in socks?

Am I wrong, or is the front of the lid not folded back? If so, that's a no-no, as it puts too much stress on the lid's hinges! It should look like this when the lid is open, whether on full- or short-stick.

[Linked Image]

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#2665486 - 08/01/17 04:06 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
Full Member
Ardeus  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Frank: I won't need an escape because there's no one to throw anything. Seriously, if a cat passes by the door, it's the event of the day. Sometimes days pass by and I don't see no one.

I already suspected this, but now I'm sure: I don't know how to play piano. I played synth all my life and adjusting to the action of a piano will take a long time, specially to this heavy action.

John, it sounds good, but it can sound better. It needs to be tuned and I need to learn to better control the piano. But the unusual magical tone is there.

Bruce, thanks a lot for the tips. I will have the piano tuned in 3 or 4 weeks and I think there's not enough room to pull the action out. Tomorrow I will try other positions for the piano.

#2665710 - 08/02/17 03:54 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 51
jcgee88 Offline
Full Member
jcgee88  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 51
St Louis, MO
Originally Posted by Ardeus
I have a new piano arriving tomorrow...At the moment I am inclined to the option B, both for aesthetic reasons and...


I went through this process myself last year - grand piano in a smallish area. I too
tried three different positions. I prioritized aesthetics over accoustics, but both were
important to me. Here are my conclusions.

1. I tried two different positions where the hinged side of the piano was parallel to the walls.
I thought the square aspect of the piano squared to the walls would be attractive. Wrong.
Since a grand piano is inherently asymmetrical, it was more pleasing to my eye having
the piano asymmetrical to the room.

2. I tried a position where the pianist has his back to a wall - your position A rotated 90
degrees clockwise. I eventually decided I didn't like this: first, you could no longer
see the pianist* playing the keys, which is something guests to your home enjoy
seeing; and second, I felt unduly "enclosed" with the wall at my back.

*I also have PianoDisc installed, and it's fun to see the keys move on their own.

3. I ended up doing your position C, with the tail of the piano being in the corner of
the room (I don't have your bookcase wall, of course). I also hung some curtains
in that corner to dampen out any funny accoustics you might get from sound
bouncing around in a corner.

--

Congrats on your new piano, it looks great!

John


Last edited by jcgee88; 08/02/17 03:57 PM.

1922 Steinway Model O
#2665756 - 08/02/17 07:21 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,369
WhoDwaldi Offline
2000 Post Club Member
WhoDwaldi  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,369
SE USA
How do you like the "zoned" AC unit over the door?


WhoDwaldi
Howard 550 (by Kawai) 5' 10"
#2665830 - 08/03/17 05:16 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
Full Member
Ardeus  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
John, I agree with you on everything: it looks better, if feels better and it sounds better.

[Linked Image]

In this position I hear more piano and less room. Not much, but it's noticeable.

It looks better because the front of the piano is viewable.

It feels much better not to be trapped against the corner and not having the piano blocking the view.

I think this is it.

I am not sure about getting a bench though. I kind of like the chair, I just wished it was just a little taller.

Howard, I never use the AC, even when it's 45 degrees outside, inside is at least 10 degrees cooler.

I must find an hygrometer to monitor the humidity level, because there's a fish tank in the room and it evaporates 3 liters of water everyday. I am guessing it does more good than bad.

#2665928 - 08/03/17 01:26 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 503
FrankCox Online content
500 Post Club Member
FrankCox  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 503
Melville Saskatchewan
Those split air conditioner units vary a lot in the noise that they make. I have two, one in my living room and one in my theatre projection room. The Fujitsu in my living room is so quiet you can hardly hear it running. The Quietside brand in my projection room is really noisy. (So much for the Quiet in Quietside.) I don't care since it's just the projection room but I wouldn't want one in my living quarters.


If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Currently playing both kinds of music: Country and Western!
Casio Celviano AP-650
#2665931 - 08/03/17 01:37 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
Full Member
Ardeus  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
There's something far more noisy than the AC in the room, but I am so used to it that I don't notice it anymore. It's mostly running water, so it's kind of nice.

[Linked Image]

#2665956 - 08/03/17 04:21 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 503
FrankCox Online content
500 Post Club Member
FrankCox  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 503
Melville Saskatchewan
If you had a bird he could sing along with your piano playing!

My bird is a rock 'n roller. He sings and dances when I play and if I make a mistake that sound discordant he squawks at me and tells me to do it right. If I'm playing something with a heavy beat he will be-bop right along; if I'm playing something quiet he flicks his tail in time.


If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Currently playing both kinds of music: Country and Western!
Casio Celviano AP-650
#2665958 - 08/03/17 04:31 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: FrankCox]  
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 358
Cassia Offline
Full Member
Cassia  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 358
Portland, OR
Originally Posted by FrankCox
If you had a bird he could sing along with your piano playing!

My bird is a rock 'n roller. He sings and dances when I play and if I make a mistake that sound discordant he squawks at me and tells me to do it right. If I'm playing something with a heavy beat he will be-bop right along; if I'm playing something quiet he flicks his tail in time.


That is adorable! You should take video and share it with us.


Yamaha C2X
#2665973 - 08/03/17 05:32 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
Full Member
Ardeus  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
I would love to see that too. What's the species?

Last edited by Ardeus; 08/03/17 05:34 PM.
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
cheaper pianos actually sound good
by Dave Horne. 11/21/17 09:38 AM
Piano benches - Stagg, Hercules , etc.
by Dave Ferris. 11/21/17 06:48 AM
Arthritis and Action Adjustments?
by harpsichorder. 11/21/17 05:59 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,869
Posts2,673,304
Members89,166
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0