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#2667126 - 08/09/17 06:38 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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#2667139 - 08/09/17 08:23 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Last edited by Karl Watson; 08/09/17 01:11 PM.
#2667141 - 08/09/17 08:29 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Karl, whenever I see a post on a factual question, which begins like that I do wonder why the contribution is made.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
#2667148 - 08/09/17 09:21 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Karl Watson
Steve:

That article from the piano guide is EXCELLENT. It's always good to read your advice. Unfortunately, when you, Rich, Sally, Sam, Ed, et al, weigh-in with the advantage of your many years of professional experience, I find it often goes for nothing on this forum. FAR more popular is the threadbare homespun, fresh from the cracker barrel "stuff," invariably prefaced by "I'm no professional, BUT." Then, off we go, like hounds yapping, following a bad scent, to an orgy of excuses to NOT follow sage, reasonable, INTELLIGENT advice.

I don't get it.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY
kw35@si.rr.com


Karl, I start many of my posts with the words, "I'm no professional, BUT". If you, and Philip, are talking about me, why don't you come on out and say it. I can take it. I thought this was a public piano forum made up of individual members, from all over the world, who want to participate, communicate, and share their experiences here on the forum, for the purpose of trying to help someone, learn something, engage in social interaction, or just for fun.

Why don't you contact Frank Baxter and suggest that he ban me from the Piano World forum, permanently, (that would solve the "I'm no professional, but", problem, to some extent, at least) and create a software default so that anytime someone posts a thread about anything to do with a piano here on Piano World, the PW site would automatically take them directly to the PianoBuyerOnline web-page. I'm not sure how all the other PW advertisers would feel about that, but perhaps it would please you and make you happy.

I want you to be happy, Karl.

All the best,

Rick


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#2667160 - 08/09/17 09:58 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Karl Watson]  
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Originally Posted by Karl Watson
Steve:

That article from the piano guide is EXCELLENT. It's always good to read your advice. Unfortunately, when you, Rich, Sally, Sam, Ed, et al, weigh-in with the advantage of your many years of professional experience, I find it often goes for nothing on this forum. FAR more popular is the threadbare homespun, fresh from the cracker barrel "stuff," invariably prefaced by "I'm no professional, BUT." Then, off we go, like hounds yapping, following a bad scent, to an orgy of excuses to NOT follow sage, reasonable, INTELLIGENT advice.

I don't get it.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY
kw35@si.rr.com
I'm no professional, but, I do know when someone, such as you, provide opinions without a shred of evidence to back your claim. Show me a study that proves amateurs do not make contributions to knowledge.

As an amateur, I am able to spend the time to do in depth studies, experiments, reading, and practice which no professional can afford to do if they wish to make a living. As a result, I acquire knowledge and expertise in areas that exceeds that of professionals. When I offer advice, it is based on 'fact-based science', is falsifiable, and can be refuted or reproduced by like-minded people.

I respectfully ask that you allow us amateurs a voice.

prout

#2667170 - 08/09/17 10:49 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Wow! I'm lost! I DO understand the concern of amateurs expressing their opinions that contradict that of the professionals on the forum when it comes to technical matters. However, even among professionals, they have different views, methods, favorite makes & models, etc. It's very much a cottage profession once the instrument leaves the factory.

But when was a amateur's opinion posted IN THIS THREAD that contradicted that of a qualified professional? I've been following this thread all along. I haven't seen that here.

This has been about positioning a piano in a room for acoustic and aesthetics. If it's about Rickster's comments on the piano's tuning (which the OP solicited), he may not be out tuning for 100's of customers daily, but take a listen on his YouTube channel. He does a fine job keeping his pianos in tune, so he's not exactly an amateur when he comments on tunings.

This is a forum. We post here to get a variety of feedback. Some I like and some I don't. It's up to the individual what he/she takes away from the advice and opinions expressed. On technical issues, I pay closer attention to those who identify as professionals. I have to admit that I have resisted their advice b/c I wanted an easier answer, but thankfully I eventually came around. ;-)

After all, when it's all said and done, we're all here to share our joy and passion for something close to our hearts -- the marvelous, majestic PIANO!

#2667191 - 08/09/17 12:33 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: GC13]  
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Originally Posted by GC13
But when was a amateur's opinion posted IN THIS THREAD that contradicted that of a qualified professional?


It's that old PianoBuyer.com article that pops up here from time to time. It dictates a hard and fast size cutoff based on the perimeter of the room. The advice is easy to understand and apply, but at best it errs too much on the side of caution. There are a few of us who have concert grands at home in violation of the perimeter rule, and find them to be a cost effective instrument.


-- J.S.

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Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
#2667195 - 08/09/17 12:42 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: GC13]  
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Last edited by Karl Watson; 08/09/17 01:12 PM.
#2667201 - 08/09/17 12:55 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Karl
I am an avid piano lover as well, but I think we all need to stop and think that not everyone can afford the piano of their dreams and in fact, own or purchase a piano that some would consider not worthy of being considered.

Many cannot afford the frequency needed for optimal tuning.

Regardless of what we end up playing that we personally called "our piano "we all share a love of making music with our own two hands..... that should not be taken lightly

#2667208 - 08/09/17 02:00 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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I am not talking about you, Rickster. Not even necessarily talking about this forum.

For many years I was an amateur blacksmith. I was in a chat room, with other experienced blacksmiths and some very good knife makers. A new member came on asking if he could make a knife out of a piece of reinforcing bar. We all said, yes he could, but given all the hours of work involved, why would you make it out of steel which is, basically, junk. So he went quiet for a while and then came back to say we were all wrong, he had found a site that said the opposite. That is the sort of situation to which I referred.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
#2667220 - 08/09/17 02:41 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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I had read that article a couple of times before and I read it again.

The problem I'm hearing is not connected to the room, but to a change that happened to the piano in the course of a week. Right after the piano arrived it had the same tone that I heard in the store. Not now.

In terms of climate, the piano is in the best spot of the house. Although outside the temperature and humidity have huge daily swings, inside and particularly where the piano is located it's very stable. The aquarium may be helping in keeping the humidity around 42% and it doesn't vary much.

I play the piano everyday, but I can't stand the middle and bass range, so I play the top 3 octaves most of the time.

With some luck, the guy that I called to tune and regulate the piano will be able to bring the piano's tone back to where it was.

#2667252 - 08/09/17 06:34 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
[...]
The problem I'm hearing is not connected to the room, but to a change that happened to the piano in the course of a week. Right after the piano arrived it had the same tone that I heard in the store. Not now.

[...]


That change is not at all unusual. The piano has had its environment changed and, after the first week, the components (wood, metal, wool, etc.) are beginning to be affected by the new environment. Even after the first two or three tunings in your home, it may still take more time for the piano to stabilize.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
#2667257 - 08/09/17 06:54 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: JohnSprung]  
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by GC13
But when was a amateur's opinion posted IN THIS THREAD that contradicted that of a qualified professional?


It's that old PianoBuyer.com article that pops up here from time to time. It dictates a hard and fast size cutoff based on the perimeter of the room. The advice is easy to understand and apply, but at best it errs too much on the side of caution. There are a few of us who have concert grands at home in violation of the perimeter rule, and find them to be a cost effective instrument.




I thought that we had established two rules:

Christmas Tree Rule: A piano should be as long as the optimum height of a Christmas tree that you would put in the room (assuming that you "do" Christmas).

"Who's the Boss?" Rule: A piano should not be longer than the player's height, so that it won't think it's in charge (short people, shut up 😜).

😀😂😀😂



WhoDwaldi
Howard 550 (by Kawai) 5' 10"
#2674694 - 09/12/17 09:08 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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I finally got the piano tuned. The guy is supposedly the best in the area.

I told him I loved the piano's upper register as it was but that I had problems with the middle and especially lower register.

He brushed all the hammers and removed all the marks of the strings on the hammers. He said "now the piano is really singing".

I died right there when he played the upper register. The piano sound I loved was gone. The sound was muffled.

I told him that I didn't like the change and he said that the problems I was having with with the lower register would probably be better after tunning. He also said that the hammers would return to their original state if I played for a couple of hours.

He said he was going to tune it to 441 to account for the fact that it would be coming down. He tuned it once. In total I think he spent 90 minutes on the piano.

This was the first time I had the piano tuned and I am not sure how much of what he did and said is correct.

I have been playing the piano for half an hour and I am disappointed to say the least, I hope I can get used to the sound, but right now it's a chore to play it. I already removed the rug from underneath the piano and it sound a little better.

I am more and more inclined to learn to tune the piano myself.

#2674697 - 09/12/17 09:45 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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That's horrible! Was he a concert level tech with voicing experience? Just brushing over the hammers is never the right thing to do from my experience.

The good news is that this is probably easily corrected by a good voicer, but it may cost you a little depending on how much time he/she has to spend. What area are you in? Maybe someone can recommend someone to help you fix it.

#2674710 - 09/12/17 10:16 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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The lower register is better due to the tuning, but also suffers from the muffled sound.

But I should have listened to my instincts when, while I was in the kitchen preparing lunch, the hair on my arms stood up. He was playing the Goldberg variations. I had never heard the piano at the distance and that creeped me out (I will always associate it with "Silence of the lambs").

I am in Portugal in a remote area, so it's not easy to find someone to service the piano, I will probably have to get someone from Lisbon, around 250kms away from here.

This guy was just 80kms away. He also restores pianos. In fact recently he had a fire in his house and he lost 12 of his grand pianos.

At this point I just want to get the hammers to the previous state. How many hours do I need to pound that piano to get the hammers back to the original state?

#2674712 - 09/12/17 10:28 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
I died right there when he played the upper register. The piano sound I loved was gone. The sound was muffled.

Don't worry, what he said is true as long as he didn't deep-needle the hammers (which I'm sure he didn't). I have been through the same thing multiple times and practically cried multiple times, too. It will come back after a few weeks, or if you deliberately play hard it will come back sooner.

A previous tech had taken down my bass register too much and it really killed the sound. My tech had to harden it back up with some acetone as it had been deep-needled. Over time (as we continue to do work and the piano improves, the smaller flaws become visible), I realized it had been juiced a bit too much and the transition was very obvious. Recently he did a full voicing to even out the whole piano and the bass lost the satisfying "crispness" to the attack. But this was the first time I didn't panic and I've been banging on the bass with my fists (my husband does not like this!) and it's improving.

So don't be sad-- keep playing and the piano will sound great again after you break the hammers back in!


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
#2674717 - 09/12/17 10:51 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Ufff... thank you very much for the reassurance.

What about the tuning the piano to 441? The piano was tuned to 440 and I thought that the whole objective was to keep the tuning stable.

#2674725 - 09/12/17 11:23 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
What about the tuning the piano to 441? The piano was tuned to 440 and I thought that the whole objective was to keep the tuning stable.

Had the tuning fallen and stayed low for a while? Sometimes they will overcompensate because the piano is used to being in that state and it will naturally try to drift back to the lower tuning. My tech says the best way to keep things stable is frequent tunings, especially as the seasons change.


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
#2674729 - 09/12/17 11:53 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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I noticed that the lower registers needed a little tuning but the upper and middle registers were reasonable and the technician agreed.

It sounds out of tune now, especially in the upper registers.

Last edited by Ardeus; 09/12/17 11:54 AM.
#2674739 - 09/12/17 12:49 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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I'm wondering if he meant "the piano will be coming down" because winter is coming? Sorry to hear that you're so unhappy after his visit and that it's hard to get another tech other there... hope at least you can play out the muffled-ness.

I dug through my old posts and found the one where a voicing had seriously depressed me and it looks like after about ten hours of normal playing (and hating the sound), I complained about it and then did some serious pounding on the piano on everyone's advice, and a few days later the sound did open back up again. Just don't hit the keys so hard that you knock the strings out of tune smile


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
#2674746 - 09/12/17 01:57 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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It was so wonderful to read that thread and reach the point where Bo suddenly returned smile I was really happy (both for you and for me smile )

Temperatures here only drop seriously by December.

I have an electronic tuner and I set it to 441 Hz and a few keys that I thought were out of tune really are out of tune. I already had done some pounding and may have contributed.

I called him and he agreed to come again next friday. In the meantime I will follow your advise and continue to pound the piano as much as I can take it.

Thanks a lot for your help.

#2674756 - 09/12/17 02:46 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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You're welcome! Hope the pounding works (I guess it doesn't matter at this point if you knock the strings more out of tune!) and then you can get a fresh tuning and enjoy the piano smile


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
#2674766 - 09/12/17 03:56 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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It appears that a piano tuner is sort of like being a hairdresser or a fancy chef -- what's "perfect" or what the customer asked for is not necessarily what the customer actually wants.


If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
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#2674784 - 09/12/17 05:01 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
I am more and more inclined to learn to tune the piano myself.

I will probably have to get someone from Lisbon, around 250kms away from here.

This guy was just 80kms away.


Given those distances, doing it yourself is likely a good idea. Check out the TuneLab software, you can try it for free, and if you want to use it, it's only $300. Mutes and tuning hammers are sold right here on Piano World. Just look at the ads on the sides of the screen.

After a while, if you get good at it, you could start to tune for nearby piano owners.





Last edited by JohnSprung; 09/12/17 05:02 PM.

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#2674797 - 09/12/17 05:27 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Frank, your comment on hairdressers and chefs is on point. There's also the difficulty of using words to describe sound.

I think that when I said that the sound in the lower register was harsh I meant something and he may have understood another, which lead him to brush the hammers.

The sound now is still harsh, but muffled.

He assumed I would like a softer tone in the upper register. He shouldn't have messed with it after I said many times that the reason I loved the piano was the way it sounded in the upper register. I love it, therefore you shouldn't change it.

He should have treaded more carefully after I said that more than playing music, most of the time I am mostly listening to the piano smile

Thanks for the tip John, I will look into that software. I had also found another one that also has the option of having 1 week training course. 800 euros for the course including lodging and meals plus 300 or so for the software.

#2674803 - 09/12/17 05:35 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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I have no experience at all on this, so a course may be a good option to get me going and it's not that far from here:

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/PianoCourseRegistration.php

#2674814 - 09/12/17 05:51 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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That looks like fun, and the price seems quite reasonable, given room and board for the week is included.

You might also want to get the Arthur Reblitz book.


-- J.S.

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Knabe Grand # 10927
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#2674817 - 09/12/17 06:03 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
I have no experience at all on this, so a course may be a good option to get me going and it's not that far from here:

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/PianoCourseRegistration.php

Sounds like a good opportunity to make a vacation out of it! smile

And I completely agree with you on techs needing to *listen* to their clients. As you read, the voicing change when I loved the existing sound was what made me so upset. But it was a blessing in disguise, as it forced me to change to my amazing tech who has done wonders for my piano, even if he's so busy that I can't get into his schedule as often as I'd like. Maybe something good will come out of it for you as well!


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
#2674920 - 09/13/17 06:56 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Thks for the suggestion John, I ordered it.

I will definately learn how to take care of this piano.

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by Dave Horne. 11/21/17 09:38 AM
Piano benches - Stagg, Hercules , etc.
by Dave Ferris. 11/21/17 06:48 AM
Arthritis and Action Adjustments?
by harpsichorder. 11/21/17 05:59 AM
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