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#2665981 - 08/03/17 06:11 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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I love how the blue duck photobombed the piano pic LOL The room setup looks really nice now!


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#2665984 - 08/03/17 06:40 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: PerAspera]  
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Originally Posted by PerAspera
I love how the blue duck photobombed the piano pic LOL The room setup looks really nice now!


AFLAC!!


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#2665987 - 08/03/17 06:51 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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There's a couple of them and it really did photobomb the piano pic, i was moving back and it appeared at the bottom of the frame.

I am keeping the lid open all the time to try to speed the adjustment time before getting the piano tuned and regulated. As time passes it seems to me that the piano sounds more out of tune.

The funny thing is, most of the times, when I finish playing, for a second I think "Where's the power button?"

#2665988 - 08/03/17 06:53 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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[[Linked Image]

Unfortunately, he's not a recording artist. Anything different in his environment is scary. I changed his cuttlebone yesterday and that was an extremely traumatic experience, even though the new one looked exactly like the old one.

A while back I thought it would be fun to play Happy Birthday for someone and record him singing along with it. So I set up a microphone and played Happy Birthday. Nothing out of him at all, he just looked at me. I played a few loud things that always get him revved up, like Battle Hymn of the Republic and whatnot. Still nothing.

Took the microphone away, played Happy Birthday again and he starts to sing.

So much for that.


If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Currently playing both kinds of music: Country and Western!
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#2666004 - 08/03/17 07:51 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Nice picture Frank! smile

I've always heard that a bird in hand was worth more than two in the bush.

Thanks for sharing!! wink

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2666050 - 08/04/17 12:46 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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He's my official piano coach.

And he works for chicken feed! smile


If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Currently playing both kinds of music: Country and Western!
Casio Celviano AP-650
#2666051 - 08/04/17 01:00 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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It is good that pianos are on wheels... When the tuner came to tune my baby grand I asked him to help me move it about 40 cm to make more room for the player. After he left I thought something went wrong because the tone I loved had changed for the worse.After a while I moved the piano back to where it was and the sound I love when playing was back! Of course I do not know which is better for someone sitting and listening, but I don't care really smile

#2666060 - 08/04/17 02:29 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
There's a couple of them and it really did photobomb the piano pic, i was moving back and it appeared at the bottom of the frame.

I am keeping the lid open all the time to try to speed the adjustment time before getting the piano tuned and regulated. As time passes it seems to me that the piano sounds more out of tune.

The funny thing is, most of the times, when I finish playing, for a second I think "Where's the power button?"


Unless the piano is really well tuned, you will probably notice it more and more. Initially there's a novelty, but after a while you start hearing things more critically -at least that's my experience. Now when you have it tuned you will really appreciate it.

#2666073 - 08/04/17 04:47 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Birds are very underrated.

When I was a kid I saw a bird do one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen.

A neighbour had a canary in a small cage, a very aggresive bird.

Sometimes he would set it lose in the living room with the door closed.The bird would fly from place to place for a while.

My neighbour would have to chase him into a corner to catch him and return him to his cage.

When the bird saw it had no escape he would clench his own throat with his foot, getting the claws under the feathers and squeezing tighter and tighter as the white lids started to cover his eyes.

My neighbour would remove the claws from his throat and put him back in the cage. The bird would the throw an aggressive fit throwing himself against the grid of the cage.

Ok, back to the piano. I think it's getting more out of tune, especially in the bass. The sound is much harsher than when it arrived.

#2666108 - 08/04/17 08:32 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
Ok, back to the piano. I think it's getting more out of tune, especially in the bass. The sound is much harsher than when it arrived.

This is the "Achilles Heel" of the acoustic piano. They need tuning, voicing, adjusting, regulating, and critiquing frequently. Once an acoustic piano reaches some level of tuning stability, only then can they go weeks or months without needing tuning. Even if a piano is quite stable, hard playing can render it harsh again in a short period of time.

In fact, this is why concert venues and recording studios keep a piano technician on site to tune daily, or even between performances/recordings the same day.

I don't want to make anyone mad or upset with me for saying this, and many will disagree, but one of the best things an acoustic piano owner can do is learn to tune and service their own piano. The next best thing is to be able to afford to hire a piano tech once a month, or once every few months, at least, to tame the beast.

Pianos can be as finicky as pet birds... smile

Enjoy your piano!!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2666113 - 08/04/17 09:06 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
There's something far more noisy than the AC in the room, but I am so used to it that I don't notice it anymore. It's mostly running water, so it's kind of nice.

[Linked Image]


Ardeus: I believe BruceD already pointed this out to you. It is NOT a good idea to prop the lid up without first folding the front lid back onto the main lid. The weight of the front lid will exert a high force on the tiny screws and the long hinge that connects the front lid to the main lid. The last thing you want is for the tiny screws to get ripped out and the front lid to fall off the piano!

#2666144 - 08/04/17 11:00 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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I am trying to remember that and not do that anymore.

The lid is fully open 24/7 to speed up the adjusting of the piano to its new environment.

I thought about tuning it myself but I want to learn more about it, find more about the pros and cons and then decide if it's something I can do properly. I will also need to see a tech do it at least a couple of times.

Last edited by Ardeus; 08/04/17 11:01 AM.
#2666156 - 08/04/17 12:15 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Rickster]  
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Originally Posted by Rickster


I don't want to make anyone mad or upset with me for saying this, and many will disagree, but one of the best things an acoustic piano owner can do is learn to tune and service their own piano. The next best thing is to be able to afford to hire a piano tech once a month, or once every few months, at least, to tame the beast.

Rick

Another good option is to live someplace with relatively stable humidity. The tuning woes I experienced in St. Louis, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C. all resolved when I moved to Utah, where the seasons vary between dry and very dry. My piano can go two years between tunings here and sound vastly better than it would four months after a tuning in the Midwest or East Coast.

#2666182 - 08/04/17 02:02 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
[...]
The lid is fully open 24/7 to speed up the adjusting of the piano to its new environment.

It's not as if the piano is hermetically sealed if the lid is closed and the front top is fold back. Ambient air will find its way into the piano without the lid being opened fully.

Originally Posted by Ardeus
I thought about tuning it myself but I want to learn more about it, find more about the pros and cons and then decide if it's something I can do properly. I will also need to see a tech do it at least a couple of times.


Just keep in mind that tuning a piano is a very complex skill and a fine art as well. Some techs have told me it takes up to seven years to become good and proficient at tuning. Learning the skills by watching a tech do it a couple of times is like a beginning piano player saying s/he is going to watch a professional perform the Beethoven Emperor Concerto a couple of times before s/he plays it!

If you intend to practice your piano-tuning skills, find an old "clunker" that no one wants; don't try to do it on your own piano. Fair warning!

Regards,


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#2666195 - 08/04/17 02:29 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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As BruceD says, the piano is open to the atmosphere whether the lid is up or down. The only difference is the amount air movement within the micro-climate of the closed piano. Keeping the lid down reduces the stress and eventual warping of the lid, reduces the amount of dust collecting beneath the strings on the soundboard, and helps preserve the micro-climate of the piano interior when a Dampp Chaser is installed, which, in turn, helps stabilize the piano and reduce the frequency of tuning and risk of damage to the soundboard and pinblock.

#2666201 - 08/04/17 02:46 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: BruceD]  
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Originally Posted by BruceD
If you intend to practice your piano-tuning skills, find an old "clunker" that no one wants;...,


+1. Tuning the traditional way is a difficult skill to learn. On your own, try the TuneLab software for $300.

Also, for every string you tune, always start by taking it lower. There are two reasons:

1. If you take it lower, places where it may be stuck break loose with less danger of breaking the string.

2. If you take it lower, and you're on the wrong pin, you find that out with less danger of breaking the string. If you move the pin and the sound doesn't change, you're on the wrong one.

There are about 230 strings in the average piano. Have fun!


-- J.S.

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#2666206 - 08/04/17 03:09 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Just keep in mind that tuning a piano is a very complex skill and a fine art as well. Some techs have told me it takes up to seven years to become good and proficient at tuning. Learning the skills by watching a tech do it a couple of times is like a beginning piano player saying s/he is going to watch a professional perform the Beethoven Emperor Concerto a couple of times before s/he plays it!

If you intend to practice your piano-tuning skills, find an old "clunker" that no one wants; don't try to do it on your own piano. Fair warning!

Regards,

Humm... 7 years to learn to tune a piano at a good level of proficiency. Let's see, if you already have a 4 year college degree with some math and science courses, 4 more years of medical school and 3 years of residency, you can be a medical doctor; 4 years of undergraduate college and 2 years of graduate school, you can be an aerospace engineer. Okay, so in 6 years you can be an aerospace engineer; in 7 years, with an undergraduate degree, you can be a medical doctor. Why would anyone want to spend 7 years to learn to be a piano tuner?

In no way am I belittling or berating highly skilled piano technicians, who have a life-time of learning and experience; they are worth their weight in gold to those who love their pianos and want to keep them tuned and in good condition. But to say it takes 7 years to learn to tune a piano with some degree of proficiency is a stretch, at least in my book. smile

And, from my prospective, the better quality pianos are easier to tune than the old clunkers. grin

No offence, Bruce; your point is well taken. I'm just engaging in a little healthy debate. Oh yea, some folks learn faster than others. wink

It is nice, however, to be able to tune your own piano and keep those wayward unisons in check. Like John said, the tuning software programs are a great tool to have and can speed up the learning curve.

By-the-way, I have enjoyed learning to tune my pianos as much as I've enjoyed learning to play them.

Just my .02.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2666220 - 08/04/17 04:15 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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I will definitely leave tuning up to a "good" tuner. Just think of how many bad ones to not that great ones out there that actually have the experience. Imagine trying to learn that craft on your own cherished piano! Any extra time I have will be spent behind the keys not over them. smile




#2666221 - 08/04/17 04:23 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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It may take a long time to become a proficient professional tuner - someone whose income depends on efficient use of time. This not the case for the amateur.

It took me about three years of tuning my new M&H BB (the only piano I have ever tuned) to achieve the stability and nuance of tone in the unisons I desire. It still takes me about 1&1/2 hours to do a full 'touch-up' tuning and about three hours when I want to tweak the temperament. As an amateur, I can invest my time without loss of income. Listen to any recording I have posted here in the technicians forum or on the pianist's corner recordings forum to hear the results. My piano is played 4-8 hours every day (I practice for performance and my wife teaches.)

#2666238 - 08/04/17 07:17 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by prout
It may take a long time to become a proficient professional tuner - someone whose income depends on efficient use of time. This not the case for the amateur.

It took me about three years of tuning my new M&H BB (the only piano I have ever tuned) to achieve the stability and nuance of tone in the unisons I desire. It still takes me about 1&1/2 hours to do a full 'touch-up' tuning and about three hours when I want to tweak the temperament. As an amateur, I can invest my time without loss of income. Listen to any recording I have posted here in the technicians forum or on the pianist's corner recordings forum to hear the results. My piano is played 4-8 hours every day (I practice for performance and my wife teaches.)

Prout, your comments here state much more eloquently what I was trying to say regarding the piano owner learning to tune their own piano. I've listened to your recordings and heard your piano. It sounds absolutely fabulous, both your playing and the tuning of your piano.

Although I experienced a serious hearing injury a few years ago, my ears are still keen to a well tuned piano. I hear so many recordings, here and else ware, where the piano playing is good but the out-of-tune piano takes away from the quality of the recording.

I've said this before, a well tuned piano will make a mediocre player sound good and a poorly tuned piano will make a good player sound bad.

You are right, the amateur tuner is not spending their time tuning to earn a living; that is for the professional tuners. And, an amateur tuner, or someone who tunes their own piano, can take their time, all day if necessary, to get things right. A pro would be in trouble if it took them 4 hours to do a basic tuning. I've spent 8 to 10 hours tuning my piano, back when I was in the early stages of the learning curve. Now, I can do a sufficient tuning, with the Tune-Lab Pro software on my lap-top computer in a couple of hours. I can clean up the twangy unisons in less than an hour. I keep a tuning hammer and a couple of rubber mutes in the storage bench of my pianos. I tune when I feel like it, or I'm in the mood. That can be weeks between tunings, or months. That is the benefit of tuning your own piano. You can tune it whenever you think it needs it, or tune it just for fun. smile

When you tune your own piano(s) for expedience and enjoyment, it can be as rewarding as playing. When you play a well tuned piano, the experience can be very pleasant. Also, when you are used to playing a well tuned piano, it is not difficult to recognize a piano that is out of tune.

I have read where some concert pianist actually carry a tuning hammer in their back pocket, just in case. smile

I have tuned a few pianos for others, for free. I don't do that anymore. It is tedious and time-consuming work, and I just don't have the time anymore. And, a good piano tuner earns their money, every time! smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2666359 - 08/05/17 09:15 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Rick,

Like you, I keep a hammer and mute at the piano at all times. I have an A1 wound pair that have hugely different iHs, so I actually tune the unisons differently depending on the music I am playing during a particular practice session.

The only disadvantage of learning to tune, as you mention, is the increased sensitivity to out of tune pianos.

Like we said in flying, "If you have time to spare, go by air." You could tune your own piano, but it is not for the faint hearted. Pro's earn their money.

#2666844 - 08/07/17 04:39 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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The piano sound is terrible now, especially in the mid and lower sections. The lower section is beginning to sound like an harpsichord.

Oddly enough, I tried checking if the piano is out of tune with an electronic orchestral tuner and it's in tune!

The weather here has pretty extreme daily variations:

- temperature goes from 20 degrees C at night to 40 degrees in the afternoon.

- relative humidity goes from 90% at night to 15% in the afternoon.

I close the house around noon because of the heat. It's weĺl insulated and by doing this I get the house to be 10 or more degrees cooler. I open the house again around 8pm and close it 1 or 2 hours later.

On the opposite corner of the room to the piano, there's a fish tank that has a daily evaporation of 2.5 liters.

I ordered an hydrometer monitor but it will take a few weeks to arrive, so I will try to get a simpler one tomorrow.

What is making me worried is the fact that according to the tuner, the piano is tuned, yet the sound is horrible in the mid and especially the lower section.

#2666857 - 08/07/17 06:09 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Originally Posted by Ardeus
What is making me worried is the fact that according to the tuner, the piano is tuned, yet the sound is horrible in the mid and especially the lower section.

Hello Ardeus. In my opinion, your piano is not in tune. A piano that is in tune doesn't sound horrible. If the tuner said it was in tune, and it sounds horrible, you need another tuner.

Your piano is experiencing environmental acclimation. The wood is expanding and contracting trying to find an equilibrium. Also, if the humidity level is fluctuating between 90%RH and 10%RH, that is a big problem. You may need to move the fish aquarium out of the room where the piano is located. When you say your are opening the house, are you referring to opening doors and windows to the outside? That too could be a problem.

You have a very nice piano and a very nice home. You can find a balance where the piano will retain it's nice sound; but you may need more environmental stability in the room where the piano is located. And, you may need another tuner...

Good luck!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2666864 - 08/07/17 06:31 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Ardeus, can you record what it sounds like and post examples? Also with the una corda pedal down....


-- J.S.

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#2666865 - 08/07/17 06:32 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Thks Rick,

I use the tuner to tune a cither and it's been reliable, at least to my ears.

The piano doesn't sound out of tune, it sounds like a muffled harpsichord in the lower section. The higher section sounds as good as in the day it arrived.

I was thinking that maybe the hammers absorbed too much humidity?

I can cover the aquarium and that will reduce the evaporation by at least 75%. I can also get a dehumidifier. During winter the humidity variation is much smaller.

I called the local dealer for the piano life saver systems and he told me the last one he installed was over 2 years ago.

But first thing, I need to get precise data on the relative humidity around the piano. The 10-90% variation is from weather sites. Hopefully I can find an hygrometer tomorrow.

John, it's past midnight here, but I will do that in the morning. Thanks.

Last edited by Ardeus; 08/07/17 06:34 PM.
#2666991 - 08/08/17 11:31 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Here's the test_



I got a cheap hygrometer today and I will have to test is for a few days to find out if it's reliable or not.


It's been stable for 5 hours at 26% relative humidity.

#2667003 - 08/08/17 12:27 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
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Andeus, I'm no pro, but the piano in the video recording sounds pretty good to me. I do hear some slight fine-tuning issues, and some false-beats in the lower register. Maybe that is what your are referring to as harsh. I do not think it sounds like a harpsichord by any stretch of the imagination.

A really good piano tech could address the fine-tuning issues, and perhaps the false-beats. Sometimes false-beats/inharmonisity are difficult to fix completely. In all honesty, the piano sound pretty good to me. If I were you, I'd still give it some time to acclimate and then have it tuned again by a highly competent tuner. The piano sounds very nice.

And, for the record, 26% RH is pretty low for an acoustic piano.

Also, I think you and I have a similar problem... we are both perfectionist. Nothing wrong with being a perfectionist, however, in an imperfect world, it can cause you a lot of grief... smile

All the best,

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2667011 - 08/08/17 01:35 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
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Ardeus  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Hi Rick,

I was misreading the humidity: it's been consistently around 42-45 (having baths and opening doors cause these variations).

I am not perfectionist in many things in life, quite the opposite, but when it comes to piano sound, I really want to love what I hear. I am not happy at all with the sound of the middle and lower registers, it's not as it was when it arrived.

I will follow your advice and wait a couple more weeks before having it tuned and regulated.

#2667051 - 08/08/17 05:10 PM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,620
JohnSprung Offline
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JohnSprung  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,620
Reseda, California

Humidity at 42 to 45 is about as close to perfect as it ever gets. Do give it some playing for the next couple weeks to help it settle in, and let us know what your tuner/tech achieves then.


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
#2667111 - 08/09/17 03:16 AM Re: How to position the piano in the room? [Re: Ardeus]  
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Ardeus Offline
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Ardeus  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 52
Thanks, will do.

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