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Best way to move beyond beginner? #2661144 07/13/17 03:32 PM
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Fly Boy Offline OP
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Hello,

I have been a self-taught piano student for a year and a half now. I would classify myself definitely at beginner, and am trying to move beyond into the intermediate level. I am particularly interested in and have been focusing on being able to read music, especially classical pieces. But my sight reading skills just have not advanced beyond Alfred's Adult All in One, Beginner level 2. I can play pretty much any piece in that book, albeit some a bit slowly.

How can I progress past this platau, and eventually be able to just sight read anything I want? (with some extreme exception of course, haha).

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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661147 07/13/17 03:38 PM
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Best Option .... Get a live teacher.

Otherwise .... get a teacher through Skype or some other online software.

Keep practicing.


Don

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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661149 07/13/17 03:43 PM
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Fly Boy Offline OP
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I was afraid that was going to be the reply.....seems pretty standard from some of the other threads I've seen.
NOT to say that this isn't good advice. Perhaps that really is the only way. But it's just so expensive and my schedule is anything but static (I'm active duty military). Yet, I have a desire to learn to play, and to play well, and I'm not going to give up anytime soon.

I have been able to teach myself some basic piano skills, and can actually sight read at a basic level. I would be interested in any success stories out there from anyone who found out a way to be able to get themselves into the intermediate piano reading/playing level and what programs/exercises they did to get there.

Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661150 07/13/17 03:47 PM
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To learn to read more difficult music you need to learn to play more difficult music. So the only other option if you cannot get lessons is to just pick up those intermediate pieces and start learning. That's what I did and I had a teacher smile

I'd ditch the method book and start on things like easier Scarlatti sonatas or classical sonatinas or whatever pleases you. If those are too much a stretch (not sure what the Alfred book is like) find something a little easier first. The net I full of lists of graded pieces.



Last edited by outo; 07/13/17 03:56 PM.
Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661159 07/13/17 04:21 PM
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Yes, 'get a teacher' is the most common response here. It IS the most efficient way to progress the furthest. But not everyone has the time or the money to do so.

My recommendation would be to work your way through another method book (Fundamental Keys and Faber have their own threads here) at the same level. I say at the same level because it sounds like you're still not entirely comfortable with the material in the Alfred book. Yes, you could pick pieces from the literature that are "beginner" level, but what is called a beginner piece varies considerably depending upon who is doing the grading. And if you pick intermediate level pieces, it gets even dicier.

Going through another one of the method books will also give you what will help you most--time and experience playing. On the grand scale, a year and a half isn't that long. Persistence and "smart" practicing will be your friend. Good luck!


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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661176 07/13/17 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Fly Boy
I was afraid that was going to be the reply.....seems pretty standard from some of the other threads I've seen.
NOT to say that this isn't good advice. Perhaps that really is the only way. But it's just so expensive and my schedule is anything but static (I'm active duty military). Yet, I have a desire to learn to play, and to play well, and I'm not going to give up anytime soon.

I have been able to teach myself some basic piano skills, and can actually sight read at a basic level. I would be interested in any success stories out there from anyone who found out a way to be able to get themselves into the intermediate piano reading/playing level and what programs/exercises they did to get there.



Well, I gave you what I feel is "The Best" way .... as in the title of this thread.

However, if that way is not going to happen ....

My next "best" way would be for you to visit this website ....

http://fundamentalkeys.com/


and investigate the methods the author recommends.

She provides a method book and videos for demonstration and will also provide personal lessons if you wish through Skype.

I would highly recommend her site.


Don

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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661183 07/13/17 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Fly Boy
I am particularly interested in and have been focusing on being able to read music, especially classical pieces. But my sight reading skills just have not advanced beyond Alfred's Adult All in One, Beginner level 2


Sight reading and reading skills develop really slowly, so don't despair. I am saying this as someone who has no ear and poor/crippled memorization skills.

You can improve prima vista sight reading by doing it. Find books with lots of material well within your comfort zone. Try to read through some pieces each day. Depending on how your memory works, you might be able to go back to some of these pieces, but the traditional advice is that once you have seen them, you're not really sight reading after that.

Hymnals are good sight reading material, but I think sight reading those is probably a ways down the road for you.

Part of the 40-piece challenge, which has a thread on this forum, is about exposure to a lot of pieces, partially to help you see patterns across different pieces.


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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661205 07/13/17 07:14 PM
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I'm curious to know why you are dropping Alfred before the 3rd section. I just started it and already invested in the three iBooks. I do hear good things about the others.


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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661268 07/14/17 01:32 AM
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How about learning some scales and chords? I found once I learned to play all the major scales, and chords within them, it opened up a new range of possibilities. Additionally, you might play through the Czerny exercises. They can help with musicality, fingering and speed. Lots of sight reading practice and pick some easier pieces you like to learn well for repertoire. Just some suggestions from another beginner, 4 years in.


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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661271 07/14/17 02:03 AM
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Well, I brought myself to an intermediate level (around ABRSM grade 4, RCM grade 5, maybe?) in 5 years of self-teaching. I probably started working on intermediate pieces after 2 years - for some pieces it was a bit too soon, but that's very subjective. I think my "intermediate period" will last at least another 2-3 year, if I ever get to advanced pieces at all. I don't mind though, there's a ton of wonderful music at this level and it's no longer taking me forever to learn it.

So if you're disciplined you can do it by yourself, but you still need guidance. I watch videos by Graham Fitch, Shirley Kirsten, Josh Wright and other great teachers. I read Pianist magazine - plenty of study material and lessons to learn. I am now working more on technique and sight-reading. I still follow "method books", such as the RCM Etudes series, and Alfred's Exploring Piano Classics, that has both Repertoire and Technique books. It has plenty of the stuff that is hard for me, i.e. actual Classical music. I tend to veer towards Romantic miniatures but I need to work more on passagework, light touch and the like. I keep practicing pieces from lower levels, it's extremely useful. I also read easy pop and jazz arrangements whenever I can, it does wonders for one's reading ability and self-confidence, and it's fun too.

Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661510 07/14/17 09:32 PM
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Thank you so much! Sinophilia, you're an inspiration to me and your suggestions are very helpful. Thank you!

Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661519 07/14/17 10:12 PM
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I'm at about Alfred Adult Book 2 level, so maybe similar to you. What is working for me is to play lots of new pieces that I can (sort of) play within a day or two, yet are interesting enough to keep working on (easier pieces -- I also have a few harder ones that I have been and will be working in for weeks and months). This gives me lots and lots of practice in sight-reading, figuring out best fingering, etc. I have been learning -- with pleasure, if slowly! -- some "intermediate" pieces by Martha Mier (Jazz, Rags, and Blues Book 1) and Diane Hidy (Attention Grabbers Book 3) available on Amazon. Also try the arrangements of jazz and standards from DavesPianoLessons.com (available online to download and print) which he sorts into beginning and intermediate (I'm working on a version of "Ain't Misbehavin'" with a fun left-hand!). These are all clever, accessible arrangements that are real music (for adult beginners!) and they keep me interested.

Also I like listening to recordings while following the sheet music of things that are a BIT beyond my playing ability (this week!).

And I echo the suggestion of Pianist magazine -- pianistmagazine.com (or it is easier via https://pocketmags.com/us/pianist-magazine -- and back issues are on sale!). The digital edition (app, or online) has audio, video lesson, and written lesson to go along with sheet music for several pieces in each issue for beginner, intermediate, advanced, along with other useful articles on technique, great pianists, new recordings, etc. good tips and inspiration! Good luck!


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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2661603 07/15/17 09:14 AM
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It sounds as if a program I have is right up your alley. It is not another method book. It is a; Teaching non degreed people how to teach piano. It includes the program for the student. ... This is seriously good for someone like you. It teaches you how you learn. That you are building new paths in your brain to remember. It caters to building your brain/nervous system to play...very well. I think you will see in the examples on music. The music is catered exclusively to building your ability to play. I think the whole program is absolutely brilliant. ... But! It requires someone intelligent enough to comprehend it. I think you're one of those people.... just for you.
Yes... would be smart to start at the beginning. To get the base building on your nervous system/brain. You probably will go quickly though the basic parts. But the teachers part of that will fascinate you.

Artistry at the Piano

Just to let you know about me. I hardly ever post here anymore. Had an accident two and a half years ago. Got diddily from doctors addressing constant debilitating pain. Finally found an answer. Am considering to getting back to learning Piano. You might look at a thread I put up. It's 'checking in and...help'. It's about on page two in this forum right now. I seriously do think this is brilliant also...the help. Especially with you a fly boy.

EDIT: I realize I didn't address specifically; reading better. I think it will come. Come more easily with Mary Gae's program. You'll just plain be more comfortable and confident. You'll know what you're doing. You'll be free to play music.
Again.... I do think the practice pieces are absolutely brilliant.


Last edited by rnaple; 07/15/17 09:26 AM.

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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2662335 07/18/17 09:40 AM
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I like to say that the piano is one of the easiest instruments to learn, but the hardest to master. As the interface is so user-friendly, even a toddler can play it. The beginner is happy to notice that progress comes real fast in the first phase, when you go from knowing nothing to be able to play simple tunes with a decent accompaniment, that is, melodies that actually can be performed for real without sounding pathetic.
Without addressing the OP at all now - it is here you also find some rather cocky pianists who think they have achieved so much in a very short time that they will almost certainly reach concert pianist level in just a few years from now.

Then ... comes next phase when you loose you first optimism, because then the going gets tougher. You practice and you practice and not much seems to happen. Pieces you thought were just a little bit harder then the previous ones, seem to take forever to learn, and even when you can play them in decent tempo and without too many faulty notes, it just doesn't ... sound good. Instead of making fast progress, you stall, and new problems seem to arise from everywhere. After yet a few years, you have begun to either realize how tough advanced piano playing really is, OR you blame yourself and mask your fading enthusiasm with excuses like "not much time" or "not very talented".

So you are perfectly normal, now when you feel you have reached a plateau. Don't worry. Be patient and know that most beginners can learn new pieces in minutes or some hours, but advanced works takes months and years even for experienced pianists.

As for sight reading: you must practice sight reading at a much easier level than what you can really PLAY if you study the so called normal way. There are two major "tricks" about sight reading, that I have slowly begun to understand: first, you learn to read one or a half bar ahead. Read the bar, put your left hand over it and play it with your right hand, while you read the second bar, and so on. Yes, you can only play with one hand at a time with this method, unless you have someone there who can assist you.
Second, you must learn how to "cheat", or rather simplify. This ability is also very, very useful when you study new pieces. For doing this, you have to be a bit familiar with music theory - you need no Master's grade in it, but if you can play the chord progression for the certain key you are to play in, you are better equipped and you will easier recognize certain patterns. A way to simplify is to omit the middle tones in complex chords. Or just play the first note in every bar for the left hand, then shift to a fuller left hand line and a simplified right hand, and so on. If someone asks you to play something with pure sight-reading, you focus on the melody and add the accompaniment IF YOU CAN, or else you just omit it. It is better to play few, but correct notes and to keep the rhytm, instead of making stops everywhere, slow down, stop and "correct" when you have played a faulty note ... So instead of trying to analyse complex patterns "on the go", you try to see the harmonies and the base notes, and play them in first place. It is like making a rough sketch on paper - first you do the outline, then you start to fill in the details. By doing this, you can soon sight-read decently well, at least from the listener's perspective ...

I have played long enough to be able to sight-read just about anything (ok, not a Chopin etude then) IF I play with just one hand. But with two hands it gets much, much harder to me, because then I have to process information for two hands simultaneously and that is difficult.

Finally, remember that good sight-reading isn't the answer to everything. It is very good if you play together with others, do some accompaniment or just want a quick overview of what a piece is about. But the playing easily gets a bit mechanical when you sight-read, and there is always a risk that you stop using your ears and your heart if you do it far too much! Difficult pieces must be dismounted and analysed so that you just play very small snippets of them for a long time.

What I wrote here is based partly on my own experience, but also partly on what different teachers have taught me.

Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2662471 07/18/17 08:37 PM
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Sight reading is probably not the best thing to focus on in order to get better at reading.

How to improve reading: encounter lots of music. Reading and sight reading are about being able to identify patterns of previously learned music quickly and not have to focus so much on the individual notes.

But you get there by learning many different pieces over a long period of time. So try not to spend too much time perfecting everything, but rather pick a few pieces here and there that you love and work them up to performance level, and let the other pieces just be stepping stones long the way.

Reading was very hard for me growing up, and I only got better at it much later (like 15 years later). I'm not saying ti will take you that long, but the approach is really important.


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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2662504 07/19/17 02:03 AM
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From "beginner" to "intermediate" isn't just one step in between. If you are familiar with graded exam, like that of the Australian AMEB, they classed grade 1-4 as beginner and 5-8 as intermediate. As you can imagine, the difference between grades 1 and 4 is huge even when they are both beginner level. Get some progressive books and work your way up gradually. Keep at it (progressing little by little rather than stay stagnant or make big jumps) and be patient. In several years you should notice the difference.

Good luck!


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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Tubbie0075] #2662521 07/19/17 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Tubbie0075
From "beginner" to "intermediate" isn't just one step in between. If you are familiar with graded exam, like that of the Australian AMEB, they classed grade 1-4 as beginner and 5-8 as intermediate. As you can imagine, the difference between grades 1 and 4 is huge even when they are both beginner level. Get some progressive books and work your way up gradually. Keep at it (progressing little by little rather than stay stagnant or make big jumps) and be patient. In several years you should notice the difference.


But of course the difference between 4 and 5 is much less smile

Difficult to know where exactly people are when they post here. It is not unseen for someone to go from zero to grade 4 in one and a half years. It's so very individual as it should be.

Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: outo] #2662524 07/19/17 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by outo


Difficult to know where exactly people are when they post here. It is not unseen for someone to go from zero to grade 4 in one and a half years. It's so very individual as it should be.


Very true. That's why I made sure not to put any timeline or period in my suggestion. Moving from zero to grade 4 may take someone one year. Even so, during that year, the advancement is still progressive. Just that the progression/advancement is more rapid than most.

For those that progress too rapidly, beware. You might be missing solid foundation techniques that will see you get stuck at higher levels.


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Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Tubbie0075] #2662536 07/19/17 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Tubbie0075
Originally Posted by outo


Difficult to know where exactly people are when they post here. It is not unseen for someone to go from zero to grade 4 in one and a half years. It's so very individual as it should be.


Very true. That's why I made sure not to put any timeline or period in my suggestion. Moving from zero to grade 4 may take someone one year. Even so, during that year, the advancement is still progressive. Just that the progression/advancement is more rapid than most.

For those that progress too rapidly, beware. You might be missing solid foundation techniques that will see you get stuck at higher levels.



Then again personally I am fine with jumping around a bit...I just cross every bridge when I get to it. The thing that gets me stuck is if I lose interest smile

But still I would probably advice others to not do as I do...requires a certain toughness of charachter.

Last edited by outo; 07/19/17 05:54 AM.
Re: Best way to move beyond beginner? [Re: Fly Boy] #2662551 07/19/17 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Fly Boy
I have been a self-taught piano student for a year and a half now...How can I progress...?
The material suggested by Sinophilia is good but the way you practise, more than the material, is the road to progress.

Realise that significant progress at the piano takes five to ten years and that during that time you need to build many skills. Playing by ear, by feel, from the music, from memory and from the imagination are all skills that improve with practise and deteriorate otherwise and that they are mutually beneficial, each one helping the other.

One of the most significant changes that occurs between beginner and intermediate is that practise moves from playing and reading through the pieces into practising them in phrases and parts of phrases and bringing them to a higher level before joining them to the surrounding phrases.

Another is the division of your practise time to cater for new and unfamiliar material being brought to a level of competence (broadening your technique), extant material being brought to a suitable level for performance (strengthening your technique) and repertory material taken to the level of mastery closer to that of a concert pianist (improving your technique).


Richard
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