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Rach 2 troubles #2658634
07/03/17 03:59 PM
07/03/17 03:59 PM
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Geribaldus Severus Offline OP
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I'm having some issues with the 2nd chord in Rachmaninov piano concerto no. 2. I find it very hard to reach the whole chord, eventhough I can reach a 10th. I've played Rachmaninov's prelude in c sharp minor before, and I had no trouble whatsoever. Does anyone have any tips on how to stretch my hand to make this chord easier to reach? I have a similar problem in the left hand, the first chord on the left is no problem, but the second and the third seem practically impossible.

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Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2658636
07/03/17 04:21 PM
07/03/17 04:21 PM
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Rachmaninoff authorized rolling the chords if you cannot play them quietly.


Semipro Tech
Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2658667
07/03/17 05:49 PM
07/03/17 05:49 PM
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by Geribaldus Severus
I'm having some issues with the 2nd chord in Rachmaninov piano concerto no. 2. I find it very hard to reach the whole chord, eventhough I can reach a 10th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY0WgCz5xPs


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2658679
07/03/17 06:28 PM
07/03/17 06:28 PM
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Geribaldus Severus Offline OP
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Thank you both very much for the reply, I'll try rolling the chords tomorrow.

Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2658771
07/04/17 06:40 AM
07/04/17 06:40 AM
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jaybee12 Offline
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In the second bar RH it is particularly hard to reach the C and D flat together - even with a big hand.

One solution is to miss out the bottom C completely. Don't feel bad, plenty of pianists do it!

Anna Fedorova is one that springs to mind. Pause the vid between chords and you'll just about be able to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEGOihjqO9w

Last edited by jaybee12; 07/04/17 06:41 AM.
Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2658817
07/04/17 11:15 AM
07/04/17 11:15 AM
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Geribaldus Severus Offline OP
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That's even better of a solution to me. I thought I also saw the man in the video posted before playing it like that, but I wasn't sure. Is this solution also applicable to the left hand? Or should I stick to rolling for that?

Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: jaybee12] #2658881
07/04/17 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jaybee12

One solution is to miss out the bottom C completely. Don't feel bad, plenty of pianists do it!

Anna Fedorova is one that springs to mind. Pause the vid between chords and you'll just about be able to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEGOihjqO9w

You shouldn't leave out semitone clashes, nor the lowest or highest notes, because the sound would be different. Fedorova plays all the notes in the last chord and should have done the same in the second.

If she wanted to, she could have done what the composer himself did - play the bottom F of each chord like an appoggiatura all the way through (apart from the first chord):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8l37utZxMQ

Stephen Hough models his performance on the composer's and does the same.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2658906
07/04/17 07:00 PM
07/04/17 07:00 PM
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I find it unlikely that Rachmaninov ever sanctioned 'rolling chords', he certainly doesn't roll them in his recording. He takes the low F as an appoggiatura, major difference.

IMO, rolling the chords at the start of Rach 2 robs it of any tension or expectation -as a concerto should commence- but merely imparts a comfortably and disgustingly casual benignity.


Jason
Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2658939
07/04/17 10:59 PM
07/04/17 10:59 PM
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Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: boulezian] #2658997
07/05/17 07:50 AM
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Geribaldus Severus Offline OP
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
I find it unlikely that Rachmaninov ever sanctioned 'rolling chords', he certainly doesn't roll them in his recording. He takes the low F as an appoggiatura, major difference.

IMO, rolling the chords at the start of Rach 2 robs it of any tension or expectation -as a concerto should commence- but merely imparts a comfortably and disgustingly casual benignity.


Be it not as adamantly as you, I definitely agree the tension is more tangible when the chords are not rolled. I have little to no knowledge of music theory, so I assume from the context that arpeggiating means playing the bottom f really quickly and then playing the rest of the chord simultaneously ( not rolled ). Is this correct?

Also @boulezian this is what I do on the third chord, but when I try on the second it isn't quite simultaneous, there's a very short moment between playing the c sharp and then the c. I'll try it again however as it seems like the best option for me (except for not playing the bottom c, which is even more comfortable)

Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2659033
07/05/17 10:40 AM
07/05/17 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Geribaldus Severus
[...]
Be it not as adamantly as you, I definitely agree the tension is more tangible when the chords are not rolled. I have little to no knowledge of music theory, so I assume from the context that arpeggiating means playing the bottom f really quickly and then playing the rest of the chord simultaneously ( not rolled ). Is this correct?
[...]


No, "arpeggiating" the chord means breaking it, i.e. "rolling" it from bottom to top. Playing the bottom F quickly and then playing the rest of the chord is treating the lower F as an appoggiatura or "grace note".

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2659038
07/05/17 11:05 AM
07/05/17 11:05 AM
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jaybee12 Offline
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Really, don't worry too much about missing the odd note here and there. One of my teachers (former professor of piano at Royal Academy in London and also a concert pianist) sanctioned such an approach if required. Obviously you can only do that when you can't hear the difference, and in this case (missing bottom C in second bar RH chord) you really can't tell.

Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: jaybee12] #2659051
07/05/17 12:21 PM
07/05/17 12:21 PM
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Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted by jaybee12
in this case (missing bottom C in second bar RH chord) you really can't tell.

lol


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2659061
07/05/17 01:09 PM
07/05/17 01:09 PM
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As I mentioned earlier, semitone clashes should not be omitted, and in this case, the composer himself has shown what he would do (even though he could almost certainly swallow those chords whole). And those semitone clashes occur widely in his piano music, and he obviously likes the effect.

Why leave out notes when you don't have to?

Incidentally, my last piano teacher (a concert pianist) couldn't play a similar sort of RH chord in Op.23/4 (I think it was C#-D-A-C# - I don't have the score with me), so he never performed it. There was no question of him omitting any of the notes.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: Geribaldus Severus] #2659161
07/05/17 09:03 PM
07/05/17 09:03 PM
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Cheat smile I just leave some of the bottom C's out

Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: bennevis] #2659226
07/06/17 05:05 AM
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jaybee12 Offline
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bennevis - you are not omitting a semitone clash by missing out the RH lower C when there is a big fat one for you to savour in the LH on the same beat

Re: Rach 2 troubles [Re: jaybee12] #2659230
07/06/17 05:36 AM
07/06/17 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jaybee12
bennevis - you are not omitting a semitone clash by missing out the RH lower C when there is a big fat one for you to savour in the LH on the same beat

You are, and the one on the higher octave is more pronounced. Try it on your piano and hear for yourself.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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