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Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2658196
07/01/17 08:53 PM
07/01/17 08:53 PM
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Musicdude Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Musicdude,

I am not dodging the question. As others have told you, tuning consistent 4:2 octaves is never the goal in the treble and consistent 6:3 octaves is never the goal in the Bass. The most appropriate size for the octave slowly changes note by note. It does take a Master Tuning Committee some time to sort that out, yes.

In an earlier post, you managed to insult every aural tuner who ever lived and is still living. It just so happens that Dr. Sanderson had the same idea you did about 4:2 octaves until he found out differently. There is also a very well known and still living technician who had the same idea that you have about the 4:2 and 6:3 but when he went to Vladimir Horowitz's technician, Franz Mohr some decades ago to try to show him how the wonderful electronic tuning device he had could do just what you say, tune consistently perfect 4:2 octaves in the treble and 6:3 octaves in the Bass, Mr. Mohr told him quite frankly and matter of factually that it was totally unacceptable.

You see, there does come a time and place when what you now believe to be the perfect tuning simply doesn't fit that description. The professional and discriminating artist would regard it as substandard. It may be fine for the work you do now and if you can manage to learn to tune the two central octaves well enough by ear to pass Part 1 of the tuning exam and use your electronic tuning platform to tune the outer octaves AND you know when to switch octave types in the highest and lowest registers, you might pass with very high scores in Part 2 of the exam. You would still have unisons and stability to pass in Part 3.

I take it that you will not be in St. Louis to attempt the exam but you still think you are ahead of the curve of all the people who have taken that exam and you want it changed so that you can use your electronic tuning platform to show everybody that aural tuning skills are unnecessary and obsolete. It isn't going to happen.


When did I ever say aural tuning skills are unnecessary? If you read my other thread,
I admitted that tuning without the computer has made me a better tuner overall, even with only
the octaves done aurally. And I agree unisons are usually better done by ear, especially if the
fundamentals drift after the initial hammer strike.

What no one can seem to admit, is that the computer can match partials that humans cannot hear the test beats for, and obviously, the aural tuners will never support a technique that they cannot do without software.

But Tunelab with 6:3 bass, 4:2 treble, sounds excellent on pretty much every piano I've used it on, and many piano teachers and professional pianists agree with me. I'm first a foremost a piano player myself, so I know they aren't just being nice! grin

It's obvious computers are tuning pianos in ways that were never possible before......THAT IN ITSELF IS REMARKABLE.




Last edited by Musicdude; 07/01/17 09:02 PM.

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Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658198
07/01/17 08:58 PM
07/01/17 08:58 PM
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Bill Bremmer RPT
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Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658201
07/01/17 09:11 PM
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Lucas Brookins RPT Offline
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My whole opinion between ETD vs aural is that I think and ETD can do better than someone that can't tune by ear very well. But a very good aural tuner can do better than a machine.


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658202
07/01/17 09:22 PM
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The machines have always been "chasing" duplication of an excellent AURAL tuning. In the beginning they stunk at it, but gradually they have evolved to be pretty good at it. Still, it is the machines that are chasing the aural (high end if course), not the aural tuners chasing the machines.

In the end it is the ear that counts, and that's why its a committee of three rather than just one person doing it. Far more likely to get a consensus of an objective, accurate tuning that way.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658505
07/03/17 01:38 AM
07/03/17 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Musicdude




You are dodging the question, which is:

How would a human aurally tune a consistent 4:2 in the top 1-2 octaves? What would be the aural test to do this?





This is not a valid question, and for this reason.
What Aural tuning can do, is make the piano more musical.. A great aural tuner can make a piano just have more musicality. One reason is that by tuning all harmonics the same, while mathematically correct, does not account for some notes not responding that way as their harmonic structure is different than their neighbours. A perfect 3/10 may make a lousy fifth, and musically, a fifth will stand out a lot more. Listeners do not discern the thirds. They discern, not necessarily in this order:
1) Unison
2) Octaves
3) Fifths
4) Fourths
5) Everything else.

So, your theoretically perfect matching of harmonics may look great on a graph, could often not sound so great to pianists, experienced tuners and the audience.

At the very least, you need to check every interval aurally to get the best musical results.

Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Steve Jackson] #2658528
07/03/17 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
Originally Posted by Musicdude




You are dodging the question, which is:

How would a human aurally tune a consistent 4:2 in the top 1-2 octaves? What would be the aural test to do this?





This is not a valid question, and for this reason.
What Aural tuning can do, is make the piano more musical.. A great aural tuner can make a piano just have more musicality. One reason is that by tuning all harmonics the same, while mathematically correct, does not account for some notes not responding that way as their harmonic structure is different than their neighbours. A perfect 3/10 may make a lousy fifth, and musically, a fifth will stand out a lot more. Listeners do not discern the thirds. They discern, not necessarily in this order:
1) Unison
2) Octaves
3) Fifths
4) Fourths
5) Everything else.

So, your theoretically perfect matching of harmonics may look great on a graph, could often not sound so great to pianists, experienced tuners and the audience.

At the very least, you need to check every interval aurally to get the best musical results.



I must respectfully disagree.

It's a completely valid question, because the answer is: AURAL TUNERS CANNOT TUNE A CONSISTENT 4:2 IN THE TOP 1-2 OCTAVES, BECAUSE THE BEATS ARE TOO FAST IN THAT RANGE.

That's something no one here can seem to admit!

Pwg wrote: "The machines have always been "chasing" duplication of an excellent AURAL tuning. In the beginning they stunk at it, but gradually they have evolved to be pretty good at it. Still, it is the machines that are chasing the aural (high end if course), not the aural tuners chasing the machines."

Again, I must respectfully disagree. THE MACHINES ARE CALCULATING TUNING CURVES WHICH HUMANS CANNOT DUPLICATE WITH AURAL METHODS ALONE. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, PIANISTS, PIANO TEACHERS, AND EVEN PIANO TUNERS THEMSELVES, FIND THE COMPUTER TUNINGS TO BE EXCELLENT, AND SOME EVEN PREFER SOFTWARE TUNINGS OVER AURAL TUNINGS. That is a FACT.

And since piano tuning software is still in its infancy, I expect it's acceptance to only get better
as the algorithms improve. Even now, ETDs have dominated the piano tuning world, with many aural
tuners finally admitting the benefits of software, especially for pitch raises.

If anything, the computers have made the practical testing and judging of aural tunings possible, which
benefits the art of aural tuning, and has no doubt make aural tuners more proficient.



Last edited by Musicdude; 07/03/17 05:46 AM.

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Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658538
07/03/17 07:04 AM
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You really need to accept that aural tuners have never, and will never, tune 4:2 octaves in the last octaves. Just because a machine can do it does not make it a better method. Nobody here has said that they do so. It is only you who keeps pushing the concept because of some irrational idea that it must be so.


Chris Leslie
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Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658550
07/03/17 09:00 AM
07/03/17 09:00 AM
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An aural tuning curve tuned in ET is really not a smooth curve like and ETD tries to make it. If you saw any master tuning curve you would see that.


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Lucas Brookins RPT] #2658557
07/03/17 09:30 AM
07/03/17 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Lucas Brookins RPT
An aural tuning curve tuned in ET is really not a smooth curve like and ETD tries to make it. If you saw any master tuning curve you would see that.


But Musicdude thinks the calculated curve is "better" because it LOOKS better on paper! That is a FACT that no one can dispute! And all of his customers think it is great and so many aural tuners have started to tune electronically so robots will eventually take over. Piano tuning will eventually be reduced to having a robot drive a self driving vehicle to the site, bring the robot in and it will do everything. These are FACTS that no one can dispute! Give up now on aural tuning before it is too late! Change the tuning exam so that robots can be RPT's! Why wait? Look to the future!

Musicdude, tuning 4:2 octaves all the way to the top only tunes one pitch so that it is in tune with one other pitch and ignores any compromise that may be made with several other pitches. The goal is to make the piano in tune with itself across the entire piano. 4:2 octaves to the top will not do that and neither will 6:3 octaves to the bottom, your anecdotal experience not withstanding.

Go ahead and take the tuning exam and tune the piano just as you think it wold be perfect, then watch as your errors pile up and each is aurally verified, then just try to tell the examiners that the errors don't exist. Then, after the exam is failed in Part 2 of the tuning exam, go back home and learn to program your ETD correctly and try again in another year.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658558
07/03/17 09:38 AM
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The main benefit of the computer/ETD for testing purposes is the ability to RECORD accurately an AURAL tuning and then be able to OBJECTIVELY compare it. This could not be done prior to the advent of these machines. Much subjectivity was often injected into the testing process (in other words "unfairness"). The current testing procedure is far superior to that (of course, not perfect).

I fail to see what the problem is here.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658561
07/03/17 10:06 AM
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While ETDs are often lumped together as all working pretty much the same, there are differences in process that (of course) cause different results. Sometimes these results are subtle - other times pretty dramatic.

While ETDs began (in a more basic way) to emulate aural tunings, there was also a reciprocal effect as ETD calculations caused technicians to make refinements in aural tuning techniques to make it easier for tuners to come up to the level of the ETD temperament.

ETDs often fell short not in the temperament, but in expanding the temperament (stretch). ETDs have improved over the decades - but the most modern approaches have begun to push beyond the results that were developed by aural techniques. We are now beginning to see (once again) tunings from the ETDs that are not yet able to be replicated by aural techniques in approach to stretch. The results are subtle, but isn't that where the magic in tuning is often found?

If we delve into temperants other than ET, then ETDs offer many tunings unavailable by aural techniques...

While we often experience these discussions as contentious, (and many feel this way!) in reality there is a wonderful possibility for the craft to continue moving forward from the back and forth developments as individual technicians move beyond their training to develop new approaches and techniques.

Ron Koval

Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658733
07/04/17 12:36 AM
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Yes Ron, any gradation of stretch can be implemented on the Verituner and maybe it does even delve into the jagged curve rather than the smooth one although I am not sure about that but maybe you can enlighten us. What is being persistently argued here is that consistent 4:2 type octaves in the treble and 6:3 octaves in the Bass cannot produced by aural tuning because supposedly, the beats of aural tuning checks cannot be discerned either that high or low.

When I wrote in some articles that the F4-A4 M3 was at or near the limit of discernibility, I got two kinds of responses: "I cannot 'hear' such rapid beats" and "I can hear them much further beyond that". So, the question of whether 4:2 octaves to the top or 6:3 octaves to the bottom is [possible[/b] remains only a matter of skill, perception and experience, even if that were the goal which I do not believe it should ever be.

I also know many different angles to manipulate stretch aurally or by direct interval which produces essentially the same results. The only difference between pure aural and electronic direct interval is that once the exact, desired pitch is determined, it can be recorded and locked in for future use, even during the same tuning procedure. What I prefer about the direct interval approach is that it is me who is making the decision for each and every pitch and not relying upon a calculation to tell me what is right or wrong and going dumbly through it thinking that a computer can do better than what I can do.

I know when I have reached the proper compromise that is necessary between several related notes, not just a perfect match with a note 2 octaves below it. That ignores the single octave, the octave-fifth and the triple octave. It also ignores any Rapidly Beating Interval (RBI) progression. The latter is the final check, not the first. Anything can sound "smooth" but what matters is if all the other intervals sound correctly before that final check.

Certainly, what you are saying is far beyond what is being touted as "perfect", that is consistent and perfectly tuned 4:2 octaves in the treble and 6:3 octaves in the bass. The original poster does not seem to get it that yes, a computer can do anything perfectly that it is told to do (within its own limitations) but what it is being told to do may not be actually the desired result. Personal anecdotes, not withstanding.

It has been a long running task throughout the decades. The first starting with theoretical frequencies for the fundamental pitch of each note. Divide and multiply the 12th root of 2 and you get the "perfect" pitch of each note! But why does that actually sound so thoroughly lousy? Some improvements were made and it was better, yes.

But now, we are back to the same kind of problem/question, why do not "perfect" 4:2 octaves in the treble and 6:3 octaves in the bass completely solve the problem? The answer is as always, a simple solution to a very complex problem never does solve the problem. I am not so sure at all that a calculated curve actually does produce such perfect octaves as is claimed anyway. That is only the belief but not the proof. If a direct interval comparison of what are supposedly perfectly tuned octaves were employed, the results may be different from the electronically calculated results.

So, the challenge remains: go ahead and attempt Part 2 of the tuning exam with "perfect" 4:2 octaves in the treble and 6:3 in the bass and then see and hear for yourself where your electronic tuning platform falls short. It may actually still pass but not with the superior scores that you expect but rather in the barely passing category and that would not be up to recording and broadcast industry standards. It may also add up to a score below 80 and that would mean that you would have to repeat both Part 1 and 2 of the tuning exam when you feel that you are ready to take the challenge.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: RonTuner] #2658738
07/04/17 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by RonTuner
While ETDs are often lumped together as all working pretty much the same, there are differences in process that (of course) cause different results. Sometimes these results are subtle - other times pretty dramatic.


I'm fully aware that each program has its own algorithms, and some measure all the keys,
and some only measure a fraction of them. I would imagine no one has used Dirk's software for the
PTG master tuning? What about the Entropy tuner?

Originally Posted by RonTuner

While ETDs began (in a more basic way) to emulate aural tunings, there was also a reciprocal effect as ETD calculations caused technicians to make refinements in aural tuning techniques to make it easier for tuners to come up to the level of the ETD temperament.


In other words, the computers have IMPROVED aural tuning, and have made the judging of a tuning
practically possible, and much more objective.

Originally Posted by RonTuner

ETDs often fell short not in the temperament, but in expanding the temperament (stretch). ETDs have improved over the decades - but the most modern approaches have begun to push beyond the results that were developed by aural techniques. We are now beginning to see (once again) tunings from the ETDs that are not yet able to be replicated by aural techniques in approach to stretch. The results are subtle, but isn't that where the magic in tuning is often found?

If we delve into temperants other than ET, then ETDs offer many tunings unavailable by aural techniques...


Agreed. The computers are tuning in ways that are impossible to do aurally.

Originally Posted by RonTuner

While we often experience these discussions as contentious, (and many feel this way!) in reality there is a wonderful possibility for the craft to continue moving forward from the back and forth developments as individual technicians move beyond their training to develop new approaches and techniques.


You don't have to be on one side of either "ETDs are better than Aural tunings," or vice versa. You can realize that computers and humans can compliment each other in the tuning world. Not unlike how the game of Chess has been pretty much solved by the modern computer, where a desktop computer can now beat even the world chess champion. But in terms of training the humans, the computers are of great assistance.

"You really need to accept that aural tuners have never, and will never, tune 4:2 octaves in the last octaves. Just because a machine can do it does not make it a better method."

I have completely accepted that, because the aural tuners cannot do it! And naturally, they will disparage
anything that can only be done with software! grin


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Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658740
07/04/17 01:09 AM
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You still don't get it.


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Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658744
07/04/17 02:04 AM
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Sure ETDs can tune 4:2 octaves in the treble, but it will sound like crap. What's the point here?


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2658789
07/04/17 09:01 AM
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Musicdude,

I'm curious.

Are you making these points because you believe that tuning 4:2 octaves in the high treble sounds good (or in fact better), and therefore you feel that the PTG tuning test is in error since it would result in failure for the applicant?

Would you argue similarly if we were talking about 6:3 or 8:4 octaves in the same area of the piano?

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2658852
07/04/17 01:43 PM
07/04/17 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by Lucas Brookins RPT
An aural tuning curve tuned in ET is really not a smooth curve like and ETD tries to make it. If you saw any master tuning curve you would see that.


But Musicdude thinks the calculated curve is "better" because it LOOKS better on paper! That is a FACT that no one can dispute! And all of his customers think it is great and so many aural tuners have started to tune electronically so robots will eventually take over. Piano tuning will eventually be reduced to having a robot drive a self driving vehicle to the site, bring the robot in and it will do everything. These are FACTS that no one can dispute! Give up now on aural tuning before it is too late! Change the tuning exam so that robots can be RPT's! Why wait? Look to the future!

Musicdude, tuning 4:2 octaves all the way to the top only tunes one pitch so that it is in tune with one other pitch and ignores any compromise that may be made with several other pitches. The goal is to make the piano in tune with itself across the entire piano. 4:2 octaves to the top will not do that and neither will 6:3 octaves to the bottom, your anecdotal experience not withstanding.

Go ahead and take the tuning exam and tune the piano just as you think it wold be perfect, then watch as your errors pile up and each is aurally verified, then just try to tell the examiners that the errors don't exist. Then, after the exam is failed in Part 2 of the tuning exam, go back home and learn to program your ETD correctly and try again in another year.


1) Have Lucas Brookins ever had an opinion of his own that wasn't just a regurgitation of one of your opinions?

2) When did either of you last use an ETD, not just playing around but really getting to know it and use it for lots of different pianos? Let alone many different ETDs?

3) Many of you seem to simplify enormously what an ETD does. They don't all just tune by perfect partial matching, or by smoothing a tuning curve and whatever else nonsense is written in this thread. There are a lot of straw man arguments in this thread, either by insincerity or by ignorance.


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004. Yamaha CP33 digital. Sennheiser HD 600.
Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: P W Grey] #2659036
07/05/17 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Musicdude,

I'm curious.

Are you making these points because you believe that tuning 4:2 octaves in the high treble sounds good (or in fact better), and therefore you feel that the PTG tuning test is in error since it would result in failure for the applicant?

Would you argue similarly if we were talking about 6:3 or 8:4 octaves in the same area of the piano?

Pwg


Please address these questions. They are not intended to be confrontational, but rather informational.

Thanks,

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
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Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: Musicdude] #2659081
07/05/17 02:46 PM
07/05/17 02:46 PM
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rXd Offline
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rXd  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
It was one of the first classes at my first national convention '71 or'72. I already had 7-8 years of training and experience with a major piano piano manufacturer in Europe.
The teacher sounded an interval with an extremely rapid beat and challenged the class to estimate the beat speed.
"22" came a voice from the back of the class. Everybody, including the teacher was amazed. It was a blind man who explained that his ability was gained in the electronics industry. He was correct according to the teachers mathematics.

That taught me a valuable lesson never to underestimate human powers of perception and the next few years (read; rest of my life) was spent developing this skill of perceiving and estimating and/or comparing extreme RBI's for myself as far as I could on a purely practical level.

It helps to know that at some point, beats per second become an audible
pitch in themselves that we variously call difference tones or resultants or combination tones, etc. Experienced tuners can pick these out on certain pianos and use them effectively. Much depends on the quality of the piano, it's voicing and the relative power that each note of the interval is being played with.

Strangely enough, over the past 20 years, I found, from following the work of some of the most experienced tuners on the worlds finest pianos, (having the cleanest sounding individual strings in the top octave,) that the 17ths formed below the highest octave are not as rapid as might be imagined or even calculated* when the top octaves and unisons are perceived to be at their absolute cleanest.

*i haven't calculated them but there has to be some surprises given the big changes in ih in that register. Someone care to calculate them? (I find the same phenomenon in many electronic keyboards).


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: How Did the PTG Grade Tunings before Tunelab Came Out? [Re: P W Grey] #2659203
07/06/17 12:24 AM
07/06/17 12:24 AM
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Posts: 442
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Musicdude Offline OP
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Musicdude  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 442
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Musicdude,

I'm curious.

Are you making these points because you believe that tuning 4:2 octaves in the high treble sounds good (or in fact better), and therefore you feel that the PTG tuning test is in error since it would result in failure for the applicant?

Would you argue similarly if we were talking about 6:3 or 8:4 octaves in the same area of the piano?

Pwg


4:2 in the high treble sounds excellent to me, and to many piano teachers, and piano players, many
of whom are my customers, and some of which have told me they prefer the Tunelab tunings.

Naturally, there is going to be a bias against the tunings that can only be done with software, by
the tuners who don't use computers. I'm sure welders in the automotive world felt the same way
about robotic welding!

I have only used 6:3 in the bass.

And I only use 8:4 in the bass for grand pianos 7 feet and larger.....


Piano Player
Part-time Professional Piano Tuner/Technician
Piano Voicer In-Training
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