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Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2737934
05/19/18 10:10 AM
05/19/18 10:10 AM
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I revisited the PVCGC this week.

I tried this with monitors & sub, 3 way decent computer monitors, big open-backed headphones, a few iems. It sounded much better to my ears with my good iems (JVC HA-FX850); not sure why. I would encourage owners to try this VI with nice iems (well inserted into ears for low fq response).

The VI's sampling is clean and clear and it has a lot of the character of my teacher's Steinway. The VI is responsive, fun to play, and I like the sound of the piano and the room. The distance, velocity groups, pedalling challenges were addressed by others above and I hope they are all sorted for the full PVCG release.

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Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744509
06/14/18 06:28 PM
06/14/18 06:28 PM
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Many users have been asking me about what is happening with Concert Grand, our Steinway D piano library for Kontakt. I'm happy to report that it is near completion! It has been an epic journey, but worth the wait!

I’ll have more audio demos and videos soon! Let me know if you are interested in helping create audio demos! There are incentives!

I have delivery size numbers at the following, but it may change slightly:

Concert Grand Platinum 24 Bit 96 kHz Approx. 342 GB compressed or 658 GB uncompressed
Concert Grand Gold 24 Bit 44.1 kHz Approx. 157 GB compressed or 299 GB uncompressed
Concert Grand LE 16 Bit 44.1 kHz Approx. 77 GB compressed or 200 GB uncompressed
Concert Grand Full All sample rates Approx. 576 GB
Here is what is complete:

Interface, controls and functions
Concert Grand LE and Gold samples are already uploaded on our server ready for download.


Left to do:

Keymap minor sample refinements and final adjustments. Concert Grand is very useable in its current state, but there are minor refinements to do.
Upload Concert Grand Platinum samples.
Video demos, marketing materials, audio demos etc.
Factors slowing us down:

Should this be a licensed Kontakt library that includes Kontakt Player and plays nicely with NKS? This process will take an additional two months, is an extra expense and requires a royalty payment for each product sold. My thoughts on the matter are that Concert Grand is so large and represents a higher-end product that the majority of users will already own Kontakt. The flip side of the argument is that licensing Kontakt Player may open it up to a larger audience.

Challenges:

How do you make downloading 576 GB manageable?

One of the biggest concerns that Production Grand 2 users had was downloading 207 GB and only being able to download 3 or less files at a time! We are experimenting with Continuata download manager for Concert Grand. There are challenges such as Windows users having random issues getting the newer version of the software to work based on the version of Windows users have. Hard drives are an option, but for Production Grand, European orders were not reliably delivered. Hard drives have an added expense. What do you pack them in and do customers expect an unboxing moment when the package arrives?

Pricing:

This is all subject to change, but this is likely what we are looking at for pricing without Kontakt Player licensing:

Concert Grand LE: $149
Concert Grand Gold: $229
Concert Grand Full $329
Upgrade pricing from Concert Grand Compact to Concert Grand LE will be available.
Sale pricing: Likely we will launch first to existing customers and offer discounts to Production Grand 2 owners.
Release dates:

Crossing fingers that July 2018 for Concert Grand LE and Gold. Concert Grand Full: August?

More info to come.

Thanks for hanging in here with me! Concert Grand is a great product and I can't wait for you to give it a try in your everyday playing and production.



Kind Regards,

Jason Chapman
Production Voices

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744579
06/14/18 09:55 PM
06/14/18 09:55 PM
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Fantastic! I've been waiting for a long time!
I already own the Compact version, so I wonder what the upgrade price will be. Can I upgrade to LE version only?
I'm looking forward to July. smile


Garritan CFX full, VI Labs Ravenscroft 275, VI Labs True Keys, EWQL Pianos Platinum, PV Studio Grand LE, PV Concert Grand Compact, WS 1954 Baldwin Parlor Grand, VSL Vienna Imperial, VSL Yamaha CFX Full, UVI Grand Piano Collection, AS C7 Grand, Embertone Walker 1955 Steinway D Lite
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744585
06/14/18 10:58 PM
06/14/18 10:58 PM
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Yikes, half a TB for a Piano library?
Kinda overkill don't you think?


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
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Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744602
06/15/18 01:11 AM
06/15/18 01:11 AM
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Very excited for this.

@Granyala - I think the "smaller" 16/44.1 version will be just fine for me. The Garritan CFX is also at 16/44.1.

The Kontakt question is complex. Personally, If getting a Kontakt Free version takes signifincat development time and money, I would rather see those resources directed at making the very best VI possible.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744628
06/15/18 05:30 AM
06/15/18 05:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
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I have the Compact version, and I really like it as well. However, hundreds of gigabytes, calling for yet another SSD, make it a deal breaker for me. If the upgrade path to Concert Grand LE is cheap, it's a remote possibility I'll get it.

I felt the same about this new Embertone Steinway discussed elsewhere. That one is only 34GB for each mic pair, so about 102GB for me, as I wouldn't take less than three mic positions.

Pianoteq, with the new Steingraeber, even Blüthner, might be next on my wishlist, possibly CinePiano, or Wavesfactory Mercury, which actually weighs in at about 34GB. At least I don't want another disk space gobbler.


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744668
06/15/18 10:41 AM
06/15/18 10:41 AM
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The main difference for a Kontakt (free) Player version is that the developer has to pay NI to compile a unique nicnt file and then pay for separate licence keys for each user. He has to buy these in blocks. Then you authorize the software with your license key through Native Access and library is added to the left menu. So he would have to pass this cost on to you.

For full Kontakt, a developer has nothing to do. He just gives you the files and you open them using the browser. It's no different then if you made your own instrument library. Essentially, NI makes you pay (Kontakt Full) or the developer pay (Kontakt free). Either way NI gets their money.

I'm getting concerned as well with the size of some of these libraries. I passed on the Synchron CFX because of the size and don't really need all the mics and velocity layers. I like the ala carte option on the Walker Steinway. I know here Jason is giving you a lot of mics, thus the size, even though there are just 12 velocity layers. Like above I am somewhat interested in the LE version, but getting to the point I have to invest in another SSD.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744672
06/15/18 10:50 AM
06/15/18 10:50 AM
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North Carolina
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Just when I thought that 100 Mbps internet service was fast enough ... and now comes a library sized at 250GB !
That's a five hour download. frown

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744677
06/15/18 11:12 AM
06/15/18 11:12 AM
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MacMacMac I was thinking the same thing. Only way I would ever consider this Mega Piano library is if it came on a
SSD hard drive. Really makes my decision to go will Pianoteq look good. I figure modeling for me is the future.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744690
06/15/18 12:23 PM
06/15/18 12:23 PM
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I can download the LE overnight so like that option. But for those with "slower" internet service, a regular USB 2.0 key at 128GB for LE is a good option in my view.

A decent 128GB USB key is robust, easy to ship, almost universal, and retails for around $25. It provides a nice backup for the consumer. If you can get the LE compressed files closer to 64GB, say by throwing away a mic pair, the 64GB USB key is half the price.

Of course USB 3.x is faster but it still has some Windows compatability issues and might be a bit more expensive. Those with USB-C can provide more colour for that connector.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744691
06/15/18 12:26 PM
06/15/18 12:26 PM
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About the Kontakt 5/Kontakt Player issue, the reason Jason gives for wanting to have his new Steinway only for Kontakt 5, is the library is very large, representing a higher-end product, and it's likely the majority of users will already own Kontakt. See his email, which Cinjero publishes here earlier.

So it seems his niche is the professionals, or semi-professionals, though the line between an amateur and a (semi)-professional, can be blurry. There is nothing wrong with that, and it's one way to cut costs, and get the selling price down.

As we've discussed, the major stumbling block of this new VSTi, is it's huge size, not the Kontakt 5/Player issue. Actually the RAM might be another bottleneck. I got extra 16GB for my computer, to be able to load all microphone positions of the Production Grand 2 Gold, which is a lot smaller library than Production Steinway D Concert Grand.

Anyhow, I recommend getting the full Kontakt 5, at least for those who qualify for the crossgrade price, €124,50, when it's 50% off. Not because of PV's new Steinway, but because it opens the doors for many other interesting libraries, like from Cinesamples, and Chocolate Audio.

I've read some comments elsewhere, stating that Kontakt 5 is problematic for virtual piano instruments, but I've not experienced it. Don't know if that's because I am tone deaf or not, ha ha!


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: EPW] #2744696
06/15/18 12:50 PM
06/15/18 12:50 PM
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There are alternatives. I got google internet a year ago. They offer 1000 Mbps. So that would be a 30 minute download.
But at the time I figured that 100 Mbps was enough.
Originally Posted by EPW
I was thinking the same thing. Only way I would ever consider this Mega Piano library is if it came on a
SSD hard drive. Really makes my decision to go will Pianoteq look good. I figure modeling for me is the future.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744700
06/15/18 01:32 PM
06/15/18 01:32 PM
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Not in my neck of the city. Don't think it is coming anytime soon.
Sad part is I'm in a big metro area. Most I can get is 100Mbps

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744712
06/15/18 02:44 PM
06/15/18 02:44 PM
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I know a number of folks here who do not have full Kontakt and so this is an issue for them. As far as getting the crossgrade pricing which is currently on sale for $125, ironically it only works if you have a third party library they recognize and already has a Kontakt player version. So for most, they would have to pay full price and would not qualify for the discount pricing. NI has some really convoluted pricing policies.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744718
06/15/18 03:01 PM
06/15/18 03:01 PM
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Agreed NI has some opaque and expensive pricing schemes. That is an issue here.

I have seen this Kontakt $125 crossgrade trick a few places (but haven't tried myself):

Originally Posted by Fleer
You can get the crossgrade price with the free Sennheiser drummic'a (http://de-de.sennheiser.com/drummica).


http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...layer-vs-kontakt-5-full.html#Post2626829

https://www.native-instruments.com/...akt-5-player/kontakt-player-vs.-kontakt/

Last edited by newer player; 06/15/18 03:09 PM.
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744722
06/15/18 03:49 PM
06/15/18 03:49 PM
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Think I qualified for the crossgrade price after I got Galaxy German Grand, at €80. Didn't buy it just to get Kontakt 5 at a reduced price, think I bought a few more Kontakt Player compatible instruments after that. Never had the intention to get Kontakt 5, but then suddenly did one day, guess it's called G.A.S by some.


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: newer player] #2744725
06/15/18 04:21 PM
06/15/18 04:21 PM
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Expensive, yes.
But not opaque. They tell you straight up: You gotta pay a lot!
Originally Posted by newer player
Agreed NI has some opaque and expensive pricing schemes. That is an issue here.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2744740
06/15/18 05:28 PM
06/15/18 05:28 PM
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I've used Continuata as a download manager for other products; its reliable which I would hope what he decides to go with, download links are 80s tech.

342 is a lot of pianos (2 x the Yamaha)---- I could squeeze it onto my SSD (2) ~ 2tb or my SSD (3) ~1t, either have the space... hmm what to do...

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2748704
07/02/18 06:13 AM
07/02/18 06:13 AM
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What day will the release date be? I am eagerly awaiting this. I can't wait to hear the demos smile


Garritan CFX full, VI Labs Ravenscroft 275, VI Labs True Keys, EWQL Pianos Platinum, PV Studio Grand LE, PV Concert Grand Compact, WS 1954 Baldwin Parlor Grand, VSL Vienna Imperial, VSL Yamaha CFX Full, UVI Grand Piano Collection, AS C7 Grand, Embertone Walker 1955 Steinway D Lite
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2751074
07/12/18 05:46 PM
07/12/18 05:46 PM
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Is there any chance that by the miracle, soundwise final release of the Production Voices Concert Grand can be as good as Embertone Walker 1955 Steinway D? Demo here doesn't sound as good...

https://vimeo.com/222850726/6293497e54

Should I wait for a release?


Casio PX-350
Komplete 10 Ult.: UVI - Falcon; Pianoteq - 6 Std; Galaxy - Vintage D; PV - Concert Grand LE, Production Grand - 2 LE, Estate Grand; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Matrix M-Stage Classic 2 - Beyerdynamic DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2751085
07/12/18 06:35 PM
07/12/18 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Is there any chance that by the miracle, soundwise final release of the Production Voices Concert Grand can be as good as Embertone Walker 1955 Steinway D? Demo here doesn't sound as good...

https://vimeo.com/222850726/6293497e54

Should I wait for a release?


The demo sounds okay to me but I did notice that it was posted a year ago. The more or equally important question is how playable is the piano library going to be. Embertone has received some criticism in this aspect on this forum although I think i read somewhere that Embertone are working on updates.



Last edited by Jay017; 07/12/18 06:42 PM.
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2751090
07/12/18 06:57 PM
07/12/18 06:57 PM
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Maybe this is a better representation of Production Voices Concert Grand. Still an early demo from 9 months ago.

But has several mics. It might requre headphones for proper sound with Ambisonics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gGmoZ604J8

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2751097
07/12/18 07:58 PM
07/12/18 07:58 PM
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newer player

Thanks. Saw this demo... Sounded flat to me. Hate that video. He said: "Cracks caused by a computer, not by a Concert Grand library" and this cracks are on their other videos too. I haven't seen such an unprofessional attitude elsewhere. Guys, if your computer is so weak, then you need to buy a new computer! Customers will not believe you or will think your software is so "Heavy" that will not run on their laptop. You have to buy 12 Core Xeon but don't even mention about the cracks! I suspect that they even don't have an 88 key keyboard during the demos... Look at the limited key range they press...

PV shines on "How you should act to prevent the selling of your products". Their demos are Zero informative! 90% of sounds played the Middle and the High register. Buyers want to hear the Low register too! Please, do something with your demos! Just find one good pianist and tell him to play all the keyboard long and post these videos.

They spent their time in things as "ambisonics" and "under the piano mics"...



Casio PX-350
Komplete 10 Ult.: UVI - Falcon; Pianoteq - 6 Std; Galaxy - Vintage D; PV - Concert Grand LE, Production Grand - 2 LE, Estate Grand; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Matrix M-Stage Classic 2 - Beyerdynamic DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Max_Forte] #2751106
07/12/18 08:52 PM
07/12/18 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Max_Forte
newer player

Thanks. Saw this demo... Sounded flat to me. Hate that video. He said: "Cracks caused by a computer, not by a Concert Grand library" and this cracks are on their other videos too. I haven't seen such an unprofessional attitude elsewhere. Guys, if your computer is so weak, then you need to buy a new computer! Customers will not believe you or will think your software is so "Heavy" that will not run on their laptop. You have to buy 12 Core Xeon but don't even mention about the cracks! I suspect that they even don't have an 88 key keyboard during the demos... Look at the limited key range they press...

PV shines on "How you should act to prevent the selling of your products". Their demos are Zero informative! 90% of sounds played the Middle and the High register. Buyers want to hear the Low register too! Please, do something with your demos! Just find one good pianist and tell him to play all the keyboard long and post these videos.

They spent their time in things as "ambisonics" and "under the piano mics"...



Not flat to me.
However, that demos are a long time ago, not even demos after the release.
It is not too late to criticize the product after the official demos.
In other words, it's too early to judge everything with incomplete demos. Let's wait for the release.

Last edited by angmyu; 07/12/18 08:55 PM.

Garritan CFX full, VI Labs Ravenscroft 275, VI Labs True Keys, EWQL Pianos Platinum, PV Studio Grand LE, PV Concert Grand Compact, WS 1954 Baldwin Parlor Grand, VSL Vienna Imperial, VSL Yamaha CFX Full, UVI Grand Piano Collection, AS C7 Grand, Embertone Walker 1955 Steinway D Lite
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Max_Forte] #2751115
07/12/18 09:46 PM
07/12/18 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by newer player
Maybe this is a better representation of Production Voices Concert Grand. Still an early demo from 9 months ago.

But has several mics. It might requre headphones for proper sound with Ambisonics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gGmoZ604J8


Thanks for posting this. Sounds quite nice to me, just hope the playability is as good as Galaxy or CFX.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2751185
07/13/18 07:48 AM
07/13/18 07:48 AM
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I have to say that the playability of Production Voices' pianos is great, the samples are clean and UI design of the Production Grand 2 is the best in my opinion. It's a pity their demos don't show the actual level of their software. I purchased Production Grand 2 only because of the advice of users ( BTW thanks guys) on this forum, demos were useless. Now it is my second favorite piano VSTi (after Vintage D).


Casio PX-350
Komplete 10 Ult.: UVI - Falcon; Pianoteq - 6 Std; Galaxy - Vintage D; PV - Concert Grand LE, Production Grand - 2 LE, Estate Grand; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Matrix M-Stage Classic 2 - Beyerdynamic DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Max_Forte] #2751201
07/13/18 09:54 AM
07/13/18 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Thanks. Saw this demo... Sounded flat to me.


The PVCG Compact does not sound flat to me and the lower registers have quite a bit of energy. There are some issues with what I call a *beta release Compact which are noted clearly above. This beta released 6 months ago shows a lot of promise if the quirks are ironed out.

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Hate that video. He said: "Cracks caused by a computer, not by a Concert Grand library" and this cracks are on their other videos too


The computer pops and crackles are probably from trying to run the video software and piano together. I found them distracting as well. One of the early videos has an apparent L-R balance issue. But I would prefer Jason focus on getting the VI as good as possible so I do not care about the video updates or ambosonics so much.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2751295
07/13/18 05:41 PM
07/13/18 05:41 PM
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Audio demos. Sounds much better than on early videos.

Playlist on Sound Cloud:

https://soundcloud.com/productionvoices/sets/concert-grand


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Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: newer player] #2751428
07/14/18 08:44 AM
07/14/18 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player

The PVCG Compact does not sound flat to me and the lower registers have quite a bit of energy. There are some issues with what I call a *beta release Compact which are noted clearly above. This beta released 6 months ago shows a lot of promise if the quirks are ironed out.


The lower registers are indeed not bad. It's the upper registers that concern me; very weak and decaying far too quickly. I do hope he finds a way to address that.


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Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2751450
07/14/18 10:30 AM
07/14/18 10:30 AM
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Milano
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Milano
Thanks for posting those demos Max Forte.

Interestingly, the third demo was posted 2 years ago and has no, "Kontakt scripting or "magic" done to the samples."

The other four demos were posted 17 days ago with "no processing (no EQ, no reverb, no compression)."

You can see the details written in soundcloud if you click on the track name. . .

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