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Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655604 06/22/17 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Originally Posted by RonTuner

I have no idea what the units are, but this seems to counter Mark's assertion that the current crop of ETDs can't seem to measure the 2nd partial of F2 with any consistency...

Ron Koval


The fact that your etds couldn't hear the 2nd partial of F2 and any beginning tuner can doesn't concern you?





Didn't want you to think that I missed this. No.
Does it bother you that your car doesn't show you the air/fuel mixture or the spark advance or make you control the choke setting? I just want the car to work - no matter the weather or altitude...

If the resultant tuning is as good or better than most aural techs can achieve, I don't care what the EDT bothers to show me.
For me, the process doesn't really matter. Results do.

Here's another one - Doesn't it bother you that so many beginning aural tuners are unleashed on an unsuspecting public without being able to tune as well as the modern ETD allows?

Ron Koval

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Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: RonTuner] #2655609 06/22/17 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Here's another one - Doesn't it bother you that so many beginning aural tuners are unleashed on an unsuspecting public without being able to tune as well as the modern ETD allows?

Ron Koval


No more than that so many beginning electronic tuners are unleashed on an unsuspecting public without being able to tune worth a darn.


Semipro Tech
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655610 06/22/17 01:41 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Ron, does it bother you that ETD tuners are unleashed on an unsuspecting public with no unison or stability skills, armed with their ETDs that produce "quality temperaments"?

All I'm saying is if an ETD can't hear the 2nd partial of F2, how can it accurately measure its iH? What other partials can't it hear?

Point taken re: the ends justifies the means, however, do you really know how good your ETD tunings are? Customer's opinions are mostly low standards, they aren't as picky for the most part.

Rafael, if I am a cheater, why do you challenge me?

As for the challenge, I would need to know how Kees will mark us. I prefer my method with the addition of weighting P4's with windows at 0 to 1.5bps, -0.5 to 0 and 1.5 to 2, and <-0.5 and > 2.

Also, beat rates determined by first four clean beats observable on audacity or ocenaudio.
I need to know the scoring system is objective. I'm confused by Kees' spectrogram method. I barely see any beating in the graphs. How can one choose periods when the peaks and valleys are so vague?

I don't want a tie like happened between Smith and Coleman. That was too subjective.

So if you still want to challenge a cheater, if only to publicly humiliate him like you tried to do to Toni (shame on you). I'm game but the terms must be agreed upon and that means the scoring method as well.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655615 06/22/17 01:57 PM
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Quote
If the resultant tuning is as good or better than most aural techs can achieve, I don't care what the EDT bothers to show me. For me, the process doesn't really matter. Results do.

I truly don't mean to "pile on" but I do agree with what Ron said. For me the key word he used is "If". That's a very important word. On the other hand, what I hear Mark saying is, "Yes, it does matter to me." For my part, I'm okay with that, as long as you're not telling me that I should be concerned about it also.

Thought I'd interject this. Mark - It seemed that F2 is an important note for you. Is that the beginning of your temperament area? I thought normally it was more like F3 to F4. Anyway, if F2 is not reading well (or any note for that matter) TuneLab recommends moving on to another note.

Quote
If a particular note is hard to measure accurately because of serious false beats or lack of partials, then just measure some other nearby note instead.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655616 06/22/17 01:59 PM
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Mark,

Here is my video.

Before recording the video I made a simulation and I found two important things. First I can tune from F3 to F4 as you have asked initially. Second: detuning the strings by +/- 4 cents is not enough. In order to have to move the pin foot I must detune at least 7 cents in this piano. So instead of 4 cents I detuned the strings by +/- 10 cents.

It took me 5 minutes 13 seconds to tune the temperament in 2 passes.

In the video I play first the detuned notes from F3 up to F4 and then down to F3.

Then I play the octave followed by the major thirds, these intervals sound correct because they have both notes detuned in the same direction (flat or sharp)

Then I play major sixths, perfect fourths and perfect fifths, these intervals sound bad because one note is detuned flat while the other is detuned sharp, or viceversa.

Tuning begins at 1:42 and ends at 6:55

After that I play M3s, M6s, P4s, P5s and P8.


M3s start at 7:03

M6s start at 7:42

P4s start at 7:55

P5s start at 8:34

P8 starts at 9:05


I hope you will post your video soon!


Kees, may I ask you to please measure the beat rates of my intervals and post the results here?






Last edited by Gadzar; 06/22/17 02:15 PM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655621 06/22/17 02:13 PM
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Mark,

As long as you do not cheat, yes I want to challenge you. I want to see you in action.

But I can not force you to do it if you don't want. I've posted my tuning, the rest is up to you.

I don´t care about the scoring system as long as it is objective and impartial, I'm sure Kees will find a way to score the temperaments. And I trust him.

Tuning temperaments, that's what we do everyday, for living, so I suppose it won't take you long to record your video.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655628 06/22/17 02:34 PM
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Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Rafael, if I am a cheater, why do you challenge me?


You really want me to tell here when and how you cheated?


Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
As for the challenge, I would need to know how Kees will mark us. I prefer my method with the addition of weighting P4's with windows at 0 to 1.5bps, -0.5 to 0 and 1.5 to 2, and <-0.5 and > 2.

Also, beat rates determined by first four clean beats observable on audacity or ocenaudio.
I need to know the scoring system is objective. I'm confused by Kees' spectrogram method. I barely see any beating in the graphs. How can one choose periods when the peaks and valleys are so vague?

I don't want a tie like happened between Smith and Coleman. That was too subjective.


What do you fear? Don´t you trust Kees?



Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
So if you still want to challenge a cheater, if only to publicly humiliate him like you tried to do to Toni (shame on you). I'm game but the terms must be agreed upon and that means the scoring method as well


What the heck are you saying?????!!!!!!

I've never tried to humiliate Toni!!!

You are really mean! Now you try to antagonize me with him.

I hope Toni ignores your infamies. As I said above, I admire people like him.



For what I see here, you are really scared to post your video. Let's wait, time will say if you are brave enough...

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655637 06/22/17 03:12 PM
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If you two (or others) want an objective evaluation of your aural skills, the PTG tuning exam is the gold standard. Yes, I know, Mark has passed it, but you could book exams on the same piano, at a PTG convention or testing center.


Patrick Draine, Registered Piano Technician (PTG)
Draine Piano Service
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655641 06/22/17 03:47 PM
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Oh! That's too much! No need to go so far. It's much simpler than that.There is no much in stake.

I only ask him to tune 13 strings.
This is not an Odisea
This is not a scientific experiment
it takes only 5 minutes
that's what we both make for living
we make this all the time
day after day
piano after piano
he was saying he can not understand how ETDs can produce good tunings if they are not able to measure a partial
I want to show him that an ETD can in fact produce a better tuning than him
how is it possible? Who cares!!!
as long as an ETD works, I am not going to worry about how they do it.
if I lose, I will continue tuning pianos anyway
if he loses, he will continue tuning pianos and teaching aural tuning anyway
if I win, I'll prove what many people already knows, ETD produce good tunings
if he wins, he'll prove he's better than an ETD, good for him!
I can make a mistake, that won't mean ETDs are wrong
He can make a mistake, that won't prove aural techniques are wrong
if he refuses, he loses
if he accepts, he can win
if score is not overwhelming
let's declare a draw

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655642 06/22/17 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Ron, does it bother you that ETD tuners are unleashed on an unsuspecting public with no unison or stability skills, armed with their ETDs that produce "quality temperaments"?

All I'm saying is if an ETD can't hear the 2nd partial of F2, how can it accurately measure its iH? What other partials can't it hear?




Well, yes, I am bothered by tuners that can't tune unisons or make a note stable. But that isn't anything that learning aurally fixes - in fact on top of unisons and stability, they still need to come to terms with the temperament. So it sounds like you agree that a quality EDT should be a quicker path to higher quality tunings? (for someone who is interested in that goal...)

Still waiting to see which ETD (was it a non-piano specific electronic tool?) couldn't give you consistent readings of the partials of F2 - Tunelab seemed to do just fine... I could go back to "If aural methods can't agree between melodic and harmonic intervals, does that mean you can't play melodies, just harmonies?" (take a single finding and mis-apply it to a determined opinion.)

It is up to the programmers to tell what the software 'hears'. I can only share what it displays on the screen...

Ron Koval

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655653 06/22/17 04:13 PM
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Gentlemen, if you don't mind a chime-in from a pianist, NOT a tuner, my personal piano tech/tuner barely has a flip cell phone, much less an EDT. He strikes his tuning fork once, and he's off. All aural. His tunings are the cleanest, crispest, most incredibly lush, colorful, and wonderful to play (and listen to) that I have ever experienced. When someone listens to a piano he has tuned, they comment about how beautiful the sound of the piano is. The average guy on the street doesn't realize it's not necessarily the instrument, it's the TUNING!

So what's his magic? Beats me!
Whatever he has or does, I sure wish I could bottle it and sell it.

Thanks for all the education I get from you!


Jackie
"The Whole World Sings"
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: RonTuner] #2655654 06/22/17 04:15 PM
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Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Still waiting to see which ETD (was it a non-piano specific electronic tool?) couldn't give you consistent readings of the partials of F2 - Tunelab seemed to do just fine...Ron Koval


Cyber Tuner

Look here:

Piano tech quiz for fun

Maybe you already knew and just wanted Mark to answer....

Sorry if that was so.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655680 06/22/17 06:34 PM
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I've decided not to participate in this challenge. I don't think it would be fair and there's too much animosity.

Anyway, I don't need to. You've already posted a temperament. All I need to do is measure it using my objective criteria and and we'll see how you did.

I have been planning to video record myself tuning by a temperament and measuring it though.

Have you seen the temperament reports on my site? One of my temperaments is recorded there.

I have programmed a web app that takes recordings of single notes and puts them together into chromatic intervals that I can record and measure. M3, M6, P4. I even graph the progression. Someone sent me recordings of an electronic keyboard. It failed miserably. LOL.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the awesome and polite comments. I learned a lot. Especially thank you to Prout and Ron. I started thinking aural is the only way to go for beginners. Now I'm not so sure. PW rocks!

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655694 06/22/17 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
I've decided not to participate in this challenge. I don't think it would be fair and there's too much animosity.

Anyway, I don't need to. You've already posted a temperament. All I need to do is measure it using my objective criteria and and we'll see how you did.

I have been planning to video record myself tuning by a temperament and measuring it though.

Have you seen the temperament reports on my site? One of my temperaments is recorded there.

I have programmed a web app that takes recordings of single notes and puts them together into chromatic intervals that I can record and measure. M3, M6, P4. I even graph the progression. Someone sent me recordings of an electronic keyboard. It failed miserably. LOL.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the awesome and polite comments. I learned a lot. Especially thank you to Prout and Ron. I started thinking aural is the only way to go for beginners. Now I'm not so sure. PW rocks!


Oh come on Mark! If you're a teacher, you should be able to demonstrate yourself using the methods you advocate in a pseudo-professional setting. Just set up your camera and tune away for 10 minutes. Toni has done it as have others. What do you have to lose? Also, your anti-keyboard bias is amusing. I have a Yamaha P120 from the 1990s and the intervals progress well - probably because it was sampled from a decent-sized and well-tuned concert grand. It definitely has stretch since you can hear the beats in the upper treble when playing a piano program together with another instrument that's not inharmonic.

Come on, rise to the challenge and post a new video. Everyone has said they've learned something from you!

Paul.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655713 06/22/17 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
I've decided not to participate in this challenge. I don't think it would be fair and there's too much animosity.

Anyway, I don't need to. You've already posted a temperament. All I need to do is measure it using my objective criteria and and we'll see how you did.

I have been planning to video record myself tuning by a temperament and measuring it though.

Have you seen the temperament reports on my site? One of my temperaments is recorded there.

I have programmed a web app that takes recordings of single notes and puts them together into chromatic intervals that I can record and measure. M3, M6, P4. I even graph the progression. Someone sent me recordings of an electronic keyboard. It failed miserably. LOL.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the awesome and polite comments. I learned a lot. Especially thank you to Prout and Ron. I started thinking aural is the only way to go for beginners. Now I'm not so sure. PW rocks!



Well, you're no deceiving me, that's exactly what I expected from you. You confirm what I think. And you complain that I have no respect for you professionaly?

You came here saying you do not understand how one of the best ETDs available in the market can produce good tunings if it can not even measure a partial, which you have not proved. You refused to tell us what ETD you were referring to. Tough you have mentioned in another thread that it was Cyber Tuner. I bet Cyber Tuner users can prove you wrong.

You refuse also to participate in the challenge I proposed you. I only asked you to post a video of a temperament. But I did not asked you to show us a tuned piano. I asked you to tune the piano in front of the camera, so we can see you tuning it by ear. And you refuse. I ask me how you dare to teach aural piano tuning if you are afraid to show here how you tune a piano.

I leave this thread strongly convinced that you are not able to tune a decent equal temperament. I leave this thread thinking you are a poser, someone who pretends being what he is not.


Last edited by Gadzar; 06/22/17 09:36 PM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655714 06/22/17 09:12 PM
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Regarding the partials that an EDT uses to calculate tuning, the Verituner measures inharmonicity of up to 464 partials. I believe an additional 5 more are in the latest update.

A major factor for a would-be piano tuner in whether pursue learning to tune aurally or with an EDT is the learning curve and how long one can afford to wait until they can tune well enough to give customers fair value for what they pay. In my mind, an EDT is a great choice.

Case in point: I have worked with a man in his mid-40s who wanted a change of careers after having worked for years in Information Technology. He's learning and loving piano work. Very smart and highly motivated. He has a family to feed and can't afford the time or the delay of income to become an aural tuner. So, from the income of a few tunings, he bought an excellent ETD that has enabled him to do good tunings for the clientele he is serving. He began by tuning for free, then for half price, and after about 8 months he's tuning at what is his regular rate. For him, the EDT is not merely a tool for making money. Importantly, it has fasttracked his growth in his new career. I believe an EDT can enable a new tuner to focus more on hammer technique, pin setting, and tuning solid unisons than if than when learning to tune aurally.

Given how advanced EDTs have become and will continue to evolve, this tool is making it possible for him serve and do what he loving. His priority is to become a fine tuner-techinican, and toward that end he is also systematically learning to tune aurally. But the EDT is making it possible for him to afford to pursue this career now rather than many months down the road.

Last edited by DavidWB; 06/22/17 09:23 PM.

David Bauguess
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Gadzar] #2655716 06/22/17 10:06 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
I've decided not to participate in this challenge. I don't think it would be fair and there's too much animosity.

Anyway, I don't need to. You've already posted a temperament. All I need to do is measure it using my objective criteria and and we'll see how you did.

I have been planning to video record myself tuning by a temperament and measuring it though.

Have you seen the temperament reports on my site? One of my temperaments is recorded there.

I have programmed a web app that takes recordings of single notes and puts them together into chromatic intervals that I can record and measure. M3, M6, P4. I even graph the progression. Someone sent me recordings of an electronic keyboard. It failed miserably. LOL.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the awesome and polite comments. I learned a lot. Especially thank you to Prout and Ron. I started thinking aural is the only way to go for beginners. Now I'm not so sure. PW rocks!



Well, you're no deceiving me, that's exactly what I expected from you. You confirm what I think. And you complain that I have no respect for you professionaly?

You came here saying you do not understand how one of the best ETDs available in the market can produce good tunings if it can not even measure a partial, which you have not proved. You refused to tell us what ETD you were referring to. Tough you have mentioned in another thread that it was Cyber Tuner. I bet Cyber Tuner users can prove you wrong.

You refuse also to participate in the challenge I proposed you. I only asked you to post a video of a temperament. But I did not asked you to show us a tuned piano. I asked you to tune the piano in front of the camera, so we can see you tuning it by ear. And you refuse. I ask me how you dare to teach aural piano tuning if you are afraid to show here how you tune a piano.

I leave this thread strongly convinced that you are not able to tune a decent equal temperament. I leave this thread thinking you are a poser, someone who pretends being what he is not.



This thread is not about us gadzar. GIve it ip.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655722 06/22/17 10:56 PM
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Maybe a seperate thread for tuners to post clips of their actual tuning would be in order.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655723 06/22/17 11:08 PM
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That's enough.

There are two people who seem to generate 99% of the complaints on this forum. I don't think I have to name them.

Stir up enough trouble and contention and you will end up getting banned just so the moderators can have peace and quiet.



Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
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