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Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655455 06/21/17 08:12 PM
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I like to tune by ear. I learned the other way, tuning with an ETD, and I used to feel like a cheater. I said to me I won't be a true piano tuner until I can tune by ear. And here I am. I finally can tune by ear.

Recently, by posting several videos here in this forum, I discovered with the help of Kees's measurings, that I can not yet beat my Verituner at tuning the temperament.

That's why I'm confident I will beat Mark Cerisano at the Aural vs ETD Challenge.

I'm proud of being able to tune pianos by ear, but the truth is that machines have some advantages over humans and we would be fools if we do not take profit of that.

So Mark, do you accept the Aural vs ETD Challenge?

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Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655461 06/21/17 08:33 PM
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We were righting at the same time, so I did not see your answer until I posted mine.

My user name is Gadzar

My signature, wich appears at the end of all my posts clearly says Rafael Melo.

So you decline the challenge. Well, for me that means that you admit that me with an ETD I am better than your aural skills to set the temperament. Please do not argue. Enough of void words. If you ever dare: let's tune.

Last edited by Gadzar; 06/21/17 09:16 PM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655465 06/21/17 08:59 PM
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Well I must add that the only aural tuners I know who can beat me and my Verituner at setting the temperament are Isaac Oleg, Alfredo Capurso and Bernhard Stopper.

If I missed any other aural tuner here, I'll accept volontiers to make the challenge with him/her.

And if I'm beated my faith in aural tuning (temperament) wiĺl be restored.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655469 06/21/17 09:19 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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So, you want to tune a piano with your ETD and see if I can beat it. How would this work?

Just tune temperament, single strings? What notes? F3F4?

What kind of piano? I would want a spinet or apartment size, of course.

How can we be sure you won't tweak the temperament aurally? Ear plugs?

Time limit?

How would it be scored? I've created a criteria where M3 that increase by 0 - 10% score 100%, Penalty for -10% to 0% or 10% to 20% is 3% off, M3 that increase by less than -10% or more than 20% lose 6%.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655470 06/21/17 09:29 PM
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By the way, I think beginning tuners need an answer to the question, should they bother with aural tuning skills?

Personally I think you are avoiding the question because you believe aural tuning skills are necessary and you don't want to admit the real reason why you began posting on this thread. It's no mystery to anyone whose been on PW for any amount of time, that you have a vendetta out for me, and you do not respect me as a technician or instructor, which is why you chose to take my simple observation and exaggerate it into a position that I think ETDs are not good enough, only to posit your own position that ETDs can produce quality tunings out-of-the-box, a position that was probably somewhat contrived to make me look foolish.

If beginning tuners will take what the majority of other techs have said on here, that aural skills are necessary to do quality work on different pianos, over what you have been spouting, they will see that good aural skills are a benefit. You yourself said you would feel like a cheat if you couldn't tune aurally.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655478 06/21/17 10:08 PM
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Quote
Seems to me, if OnlyPure is so good, it's a waste of time to learn aural tuning, especially as I said, when it takes years of struggle and dedicated practice to get good at aural tuning, only to have an "ETD beat aural tuners".

If what you say is true, it's not worth the effort. Many beginning techs are reading this and this is probably the most important question that is in their minds right now.
(With edit)

I went to piano tuning school back in 1995 and even then my teacher taught us to tune with a Yamaha PT100 device. He told us that learning to tune aurally was a waste of time. Since then devices have become much more sophisticated, so in my opinion, practically speaking, yes, learning to tune aurally is maybe not worth the time and effort and certainly not necessary. It seems that usually, a lot of (but certainly not all) tuners that learn aurally do so for the satisfaction and accomplished feeling, (or to pass the RPT test) so for them, it's not a waste of time. Satisfaction and accomplishment are treasured commodities! Being an RPT has never interested me and I've found that tuning with an ETD gives me great satisfaction and a feeling of accomplishment. Paying close attention to unisons and octaves and learning to set the pin effectively has been a big enough challenge for me. (Also, pitch raising spinets!) The unisons and octaves are the most basic of aural skills, nevertheless, they are aural skills that I use.

A young colleague of mine went to the North Bennet Street school in Boston and was telling me that after they learn to tune aurally they work on using an ETD the last couple of weeks. He laughed and said that all the teachers use ETD's... That's cool. I don't have any problem with that. (So far he is tuning aurally but has talked about getting an ETD in the future.) My guess is that if the RPT standard was changed, that would be the death knell for aural tuning. I suppose that's a good reason for them not to change it.

Another thought: As far as "out of the box" is concerned, it seems to me that OnlyPure is the only one that would qualify for that. There's only one screen and nothing to change other than the pitch (calibration & offset) and manual or auto note switching. Point and shoot.


"That Tuning Guy"
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Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655479 06/21/17 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
So, you want to tune a piano with your ETD and see if I can beat it


Yes! That's what I want. thumb

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
How would this work?


It is up to us, both you and me, to tell the rules.

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Just tune temperament, single strings?


Yes, just the temperament, single strings. No unisons.

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
What notes? F3F4?


Verituner works its fine tuning mode between A3 and A4. So I would say A3 to A4 but I guess you say F3F4 because your aural sequence tunes that range.

So what I propose is from F3 to A4. This includes both ranges.

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
What kind of piano? I would want a spinet or apartment size, of course.


So do I,

What I have now at home is the Weinbach studio I recorded for the "Unison tuning video" thread of TheTuner. Remember?

What do you have at hand? What piano are you going to tune?

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
How can we be sure you won't tweak the temperament aurally?


That's easy, I will only play single notes while tuning, no intervals, no tests, nothing but single notes. I'll first tune A4, then A3, A#3, B3, etc. chromatically up to A4, then G#3, G3, F#3 and finally F3. I won't play any interval.

How can I be sure you won't tweak your temperament using Audacity or any other software or equipment to measure intervals?

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Ear plugs?


No. I never use ear plugs. Not necessary anyway. See above. I won´t play any intervals while tuning.

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Time limit?


None. I will tune two passes, as I always do for each piano I tune. In the first pass I will do a rough tuning to put each note at pitch, then a second pass fine tuning. Last I'll play the intervals needed to score the tuning.

You can take the time you need to set your temperament. Just do it how you always do.

What are you going to do? One pass? Two passes? Retuning notes as needed? You can do it as you wish. But tell me in advance what you are going to do.

I propose to tune the piano the best you can then detune F3 4.0 cents sharp, F#3 4.0 cents flat, and so on +4.0, -4.0, etc up to A4, just as it is detuned for the PTG exam. All this will be done before taking the video. With the piano detuned that way we start the recording by playing the notes from F3, F#3, going up to A4 to show how they are detuned. Then we begin tuning.

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
How would it be scored? I've created a criteria where M3 that increase by 0 - 10% score 100%, Penalty for -10% to 0% or 10% to 20% is 3% off, M3 that increase by less than -10% or more than 20% lose 6%


I don't like your method, too cumbersome. Why don't we leave the scoring in the hands of Kees? As well as the measurements of the intervals? I'll accept whatever he proposes. We must avoid being judges here.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655482 06/21/17 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
By the way, I think beginning tuners need an answer to the question, should they bother with aural tuning skills?

Personally I think you are avoiding the question because you believe aural tuning skills are necessary and you don't want to admit the real reason why you began posting on this thread. It's no mystery to anyone whose been on PW for any amount of time, that you have a vendetta out for me, and you do not respect me as a technician or instructor, which is why you chose to take my simple observation and exaggerate it into a position that I think ETDs are not good enough, only to posit your own position that ETDs can produce quality tunings out-of-the-box, a position that was probably somewhat contrived to make me look foolish.

If beginning tuners will take what the majority of other techs have said on here, that aural skills are necessary to do quality work on different pianos, over what you have been spouting, they will see that good aural skills are a benefit. You yourself said you would feel like a cheat if you couldn't tune aurally.


So you think beginning tuners need an answer. I already gave my answer. I myself have learnt aural tuning. Yes I felt like a cheater when I was unable to tune by ear. That's my own personal way of thinking. I don't know what others need. What I know now and did not know then, is that at present there are some ETDs available in the maket for some hundreths of dollars which are able to calculate a profesional quality tuning, including good unisons and optimal stretch without need of any aural skill of the user. It can all be made visually. No aural adjustments, no aural tweakings are needed. I'm talking about Tunic Onlypure.

When I felt compelled to learn aural tuning those ETDs were not in the market. The ETD I bought then needed, and needs still, aural skills to better fit the piano's iH. If I were to learn piano tuning now I would not need these skills anymore. There are many things more important to become a piano tuner that being able to set a temperament aurally.

It is up to each person to decide if they are going to learn aural tuning or not. I know very fine piano technicians with no aural skills, who are happy with what they do and what they are. Chuck Behm comes to mind.

So you see? You are wrong, I am not avoiding the question because I believe aural tuning skills are necessary. I am not avoiding the question at all.

About the real reason I'm posting here is first because I am an hybrid tuner, ETD and aural and I want to know how others think about this. Second, you are right, I do not have respect for you as a professional because I have seen you cheating. I reject cheaters. As I did with myself when I felt as a cheater and I learnt aural tuning to not feel like one.

I do not exagerate your position about ETDs. No need. You have made it patent in your OP as noted by Ron Koval, Gerry Johnston, Chris Leslie and others including yourself when you said your own words sounded defensive!

Finally I want to insist that today there are available in the market for a few hundreths of dollars, ETDs able to completely tune a piano to a professional level visually with no aural skills needed from the user.

That makes you look foolish?

I really don't know why, nor how...



Last edited by Gadzar; 06/22/17 12:48 AM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655484 06/21/17 11:52 PM
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My Forum Preferences has "always" set for showing signatures but I do not see any.


Chris Leslie
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http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655485 06/22/17 12:01 AM
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I see all of them when I am at my desktop computer. In my cell phone I do not see any of them.

BTW: Someone who doesn't see my signature has no choice other than Gadzar.

Last edited by Gadzar; 06/22/17 12:04 AM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Gadzar] #2655486 06/22/17 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
I like to tune by ear. I learned the other way, tuning with an ETD, and I used to feel like a cheater. I said to me I won't be a true piano tuner until I can tune by ear. And here I am. I finally can tune by ear.

Recently, by posting several videos here in this forum, I discovered with the help of Kees's measurings, that I can not yet beat my Verituner at tuning the temperament.

That's why I'm confident I will beat Mark Cerisano at the Aural vs ETD Challenge.

I'm proud of being able to tune pianos by ear, but the truth is that machines have some advantages over humans and we would be fools if we do not take profit of that.

So Mark, do you accept the Aural vs ETD Challenge?



I would like to do such a challenge. Like you I use an ETD (Verituner, TunicOnlyPure), but I still should be able to tune a ET aurally because I did it for years. I suggest a temperament from D3 - A4. I will post a video me tuning the temperament and checking thirds, sixths, fourths and fifths.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655495 06/22/17 12:36 AM
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I've already seen a video of yours tuning ET by ear!





Last edited by Gadzar; 06/22/17 12:39 AM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: staveoff] #2655500 06/22/17 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by staveoff
I thought I would chime in as I have been following this thread and this is of great interest to me.

I am a classically trained pianist and a hobby tuner who likes to have my piano in tune. I have a 1918 Mason and Hamlin, model A, partially restored. I have used Tunelab and Entropy and generally stick with Tunelab because I can try different temperaments and it doesn't have as many glitches as Entropy. I am completely self-taught and I used ETDs to help me to learn. I realize that my technique is probably decent at best but since I only have to tune my own piano and I tune it regularly, it generally stays in tune (I also keep the lid closed and there is a Damp-Chaser installed). Therefore, stability probably takes care of itself due to the above factors.

I have had many techs tune my piano over the years (both aurally and with ETDs) and the results are mixed. Regardless, I have also found that if I want the piano to sound the way I want it to sound I had to tune it on my own using an ETD. When I use an ETD (usually TuneLab) I tune it according to the device and then tweek a few notes here and there to my liking, often making significant changes in the lower bass. I am sure that I would be completely lost if I tried to tune aurally from scratch with no help from the device.

The first question is this: Would I have been better off first learning to tune aurally and then using an ETD to improve my tunings? I don't know the answer to that. But I will say that learning from an ETD has probably saved me a lot of time. Since I don't do this professionally then it makes sense in my case.

The other questions is this: How good can a tuning be using only an ETD without bias from the tuner's ear? Perhaps someone who owns Tunic OnlyPure (which claims to be able to tune unisons) can tune an entire piano (including unisons) wearing thick ear plugs so that there is no bias from his/her ear.

It seems that ETDs are getting better and better everyday. They have certainly made it possible for someone like me to enjoy my piano more because I am able to keep it in tune.


I think to be able to tune aurally helps to understand ET better. I am not sure if it is really necessary to be able to tune aurally, but at least you should know how to check for example the temperament for its quality. I also would learn the checks for the different octaves types, how to check a pure fifth and all the other available checks. Although I use a ETD for ET, I always check the results given by the machine. To know all these things is great fun and easy.

One of my ETD is TunicOnlyPure. It is really great. But I like to tune the unisons by ear, simply because I did it since I started tuning and because I like to do it by ear. There are situations, e. g. a lot of false beats on poor piano in the treble, where tuning every string to the machine is simply better. And in this case I can save time and energy. But that is not often the case. I don't forget: what is a tuned note worth if it is not stable or not well voiced and is simply screaming at you? IMO then all these discussions about ETD, temperament and octave sizes are needless.

Learn all the checks and compare with the ETD result. Maybe one day you will give the aural tuning task a try.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Gadzar] #2655501 06/22/17 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
I've already seen a video of yours tuning ET by ear!






Dear Rafael

That video was not made for this event. I did it last Monday. I like to do another one, it is not really fun to look at me! LOL😂 BTW the last fifth is quite bad.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655528 06/22/17 07:00 AM
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Dear Toni,

I like people like you, enthusiastic, willing to accept challenges, to learn, to explore his possibilities, willing to go beyond limits, not afraid of showing others what you can do.

There are some people here who has claimed for years how good they are at tuning a piano but have never posted a video of them doing it.

I think we all can learn by watching others tuning. We can learn both ways, LOL. What to do and what not to do.

It is very difficult for me too see my own errors. My ego prevents me from seeing them. If I post a video I expose myself to the scrutiny of others and that scares. But it is the only way to find out what I am doing wrong, this is the first step to improve...

If I am afraid to show what I do and think I am doing it right, I will never improve myself.

So, lets tune a temperament and let others see how we do it. Tomorrow I will be posting my video using Verituner.




Last edited by Gadzar; 06/22/17 07:09 AM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655537 06/22/17 07:51 AM
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Ok. Tomorrow I have another difficult Steinway K which I am always fighting with. Last time it tuned it in the desired ET with the TunicOnlyPure and it was very nice. I try again a temperament by ear on an older Bechstein grand tomorrow early in the morning and post the video and the audio file (TunicOnlyPure). Unfortunately I can't make a video when using my ETD.

If you think about Mark Cerisano when you talk about "others" I have to say that my tuning abilities increased very much because of his NSL/SL tension theory. I found his concept very clear and easy. Since I am aware of it my stability has greatly improved.

I am not afraid of posting a video. I don't do it because I want to show what I am able to do (or not). But if the comments here are constructive and professional, I can learn something more. And I made good experiences here on PW. Helpful thoughts and impulses from everyone. I am happy to talk to tuner all over the world!

Today is a "tuneless " day for me, too hot here.😅 But I am keen on seeing your video and also from others. There is surely something to learn from it.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655539 06/22/17 07:54 AM
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I've been experimenting with tuning single string unisons with Verituner the last few months. It was a continuation of my seeking to improve my pitch adjustment pass; I often found that tuning one string to the ETD, then the other two by ear would leave the unisons a little more sloppy than I would like. My goal has been to solidly tune the first pass, so that any strings that are 'right on' can be left alone. I see a lot of +/-20 cents or so seasonal adjustments - I'm not so careful on the bigger pitch raises!

While OnlyPure has a more sensitive display, I have - with practice - found that I can achieve more consistent unisons by using the display for each string. I believe it has to do with observing when the string is 'in the pocket' - settled, but easy to nudge a little sharp or flat as needed. Possibly, the display makes me focus a bit more than settling for 'good enough' when tuning only by ear!

As I approach my 60's - I've had plenty of opportunities over the years to follow up on 'more seasoned' techs that first lose the ability to tune the top octave, then lose the ability to really lock in the unison. I'm hoping my practice and familiarity with the best ETDs available allow me to tune at a much higher level moving forward... So that I can provide the best service with the least amount of strain to both the customer and myself.

Ron Koval

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655544 06/22/17 08:13 AM
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Interesting. I've never tried to tune single string unisons with Verituner. Except for the highest 3 or 4 notes when they are not audible.

Last edited by Gadzar; 06/22/17 08:18 AM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Gadzar] #2655547 06/22/17 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Interesting. I've never tried to tune single string unisons with Verituner.


I tried it, and I was not really happy with the unisons.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655551 06/22/17 08:22 AM
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For the top most notes, B7 and C8, when I can not hear the note I use to pluck them with the tip of a Pap's mute and tune each string to the Verituner. But I never like very much the results.

Last edited by Gadzar; 06/22/17 10:23 AM.
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