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Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655350 06/21/17 01:06 PM
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Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
There you go again Ron. Being so defensive. As if you yourself invented ETDs. This thread was created not to criticize ETDs, but to understand them better. Which all the other posters seemed to have understood. Your post has the familiar style that you portray often, that of someone who feels attacked when there are no weapons being used, or someone intent on preemptive strikes.

But to be helpful, tuning upper octaves melodically is not recommended due to the psychoacoustic effect - we may think they are in tune but they aren't. Especially as people age it seems their perspective of treble pitches changes.

The better way is harmonically and more precisely with larger intervals like 12, 19, and 22, while keeping the 8ve clean.

Another question I had concerning ETDs is how can they produce the kind of accuracy and precision I use tuning A3A4 for example, as a wide 4:2/narrow 6:3, or pure 4:2/very narrow 6:3, or pure 2:1, as each piano requires and can be audibly set to such sizes and confirmed to be preferred, as I have done with my online surveys?
As far as I know, no ETD is that accurate, but I could be wrong and would love to find out.



LOL

Marck,

Ron only switched ETD and aural.

Those are your own words! Do they sound defensive? Yes. Exactly. That's the point.

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Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655352 06/21/17 01:11 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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With all this amazing software that can tune pianos, including unisons, so well out-of-the-box, coupled with the years of training needed to acquire aural skills, with the benefit that "it [only] makes a nice combination", what's the point of even bothering to learn to tune aurally?

Seems to me, if OnlyPure is so good, it's a waste of time to learn aural tuning, especially as I said, when it takes years of struggle and dedicated practice to get good at aural tuning, only to have an "ETD beat aural tuners".

If what you say is true, it's not worth the effort. Please, Raphael, give us your opinion. Many beginning techs are reading this and this is probably the most important question that is in their minds right now.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: BDB] #2655357 06/21/17 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
The Schubert never gets to the high notes. The Shostakovich gets to at least the top B.


I guess it depends on 'how high is high'. Trout uses octaves consistently with the top notes moving in the C7 to F7 range. Needless to say, the tuning on the attack in that range is really critical.

You got me beat. The Peeters only goes up to Bb7! Here's the next to the last page of the concerto.
[Linked Image]

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655358 06/21/17 01:29 PM
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Surely a lot of the skill of tuning is the mechanical and motor skills necessary to properly set the pin and strings? Of course, you need some aural feedback as well, but no matter how good your visual or aural skills are, you still need the motor skills to do the physical part of tuning. Isn't this where the 10,000 hours of practice comes in?

Paul.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655367 06/21/17 02:00 PM
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Ok. A little more data.

Yamaha C3 in a church today. iphone4s is my dedicated tuning device. I also use a Dayton iMM-6 calibrated external microphone.

I checked - I couldn't get Verituner to show/measure the 2nd partial of F2.

Of all the basic apps, only Cleartune (cheap guitar-type tuner app) let me lock the display on F3 and sound F2 to get consistent readings around -5.5 cents. The display isn't precise enough to get much more than that. Tried 5 or 6 times.

(Tried AP tuner, strobosoft and pitchlab, but couldn't figure out how to lock the display and sound another note to force it to display a different partial.)

Tunelab. Started a new file, changed the partial reading on F2 to the 2nd partial and got

-5.9,-6.0,-5.9,-5.8,-5.9 and -6.0

Ok, I thought maybe the automated 'measure' function may show something different?

Listed below are the offsets for 2nd partial as well as the resultant inharmonicity constant for that note that tunelab uses after using the "measure note" (ruler) function

.60 / .151
.61 /.151
.61 /.152
.61 / .152
.60 / .151

I have no idea what the units are, but this seems to counter Mark's assertion that the current crop of ETDs can't seem to measure the 2nd partial of F2 with any consistency...

I was able to observe/force some transient spikes in the display before it settled on some of the apps, but I don't think any ETD tuner would focus on the transient as opposed to the stable display.

Ron Koval

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655371 06/21/17 02:21 PM
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Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
With all this amazing software that can tune pianos, including unisons, so well out-of-the-box, coupled with the years of training needed to acquire aural skills, with the benefit that "it [only] makes a nice combination", what's the point of even bothering to learn to tune aurally?

Seems to me, if OnlyPure is so good, it's a waste of time to learn aural tuning, especially as I said, when it takes years of struggle and dedicated practice to get good at aural tuning, only to have an "ETD beat aural tuners".

If what you say is true, it's not worth the effort. Please, Raphael, give us your opinion. Many beginning techs are reading this and this is probably the most important question that is in their minds right now.


Marq,

You said that is the first time you use an ETD (Cyber Tuner) to tune a piano. You don't have experience using ETDs. I suggest you to try Tunic Onlypure and then we can talk about how good or bad it is.

Meaningwhile you can ask here Cyber Tuner users how you can get better results with this ETD.

You have the bad habit to criticize what you don't know. So, please try and learn before disqualifying something.

Last edited by Gadzar; 06/21/17 02:24 PM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Gadzar] #2655390 06/21/17 03:56 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
With all this amazing software that can tune pianos, including unisons, so well out-of-the-box, coupled with the years of training needed to acquire aural skills, with the benefit that "it [only] makes a nice combination", what's the point of even bothering to learn to tune aurally?

Seems to me, if OnlyPure is so good, it's a waste of time to learn aural tuning, especially as I said, when it takes years of struggle and dedicated practice to get good at aural tuning, only to have an "ETD beat aural tuners".

If what you say is true, it's not worth the effort. Please, Raphael, give us your opinion. Many beginning techs are reading this and this is probably the most important question that is in their minds right now.


Marq,

You said that is the first time you use an ETD (Cyber Tuner) to tune a piano. You don't have experience using ETDs. I suggest you to try Tunic Onlypure and then we can talk about how good or bad it is.

Meaningwhile you can ask here Cyber Tuner users how you can get better results with this ETD.



You have the bad habit to criticize what you don't know. So, please try and learn before disqualifying something.


Raphael,

My name is spelt Mark Cerisano. Please try to correct that in the future.

You are evading the question. You say your ETD can tune unisons and octaves and temperament better than aural techniques.

Please tell us why we should learn aural tuning.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: RonTuner] #2655391 06/21/17 04:04 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Originally Posted by RonTuner

I have no idea what the units are, but this seems to counter Mark's assertion that the current crop of ETDs can't seem to measure the 2nd partial of F2 with any consistency...

Ron Koval

This thread sure has some people sensitive.

I did not assert that all ETDs have problems. I mearly shared my results and concerns knowing people here are more knowledgable than I. I think you read my post wrong.

The fact that your etds couldn't hear the 2nd partial of F2 and any beginning tuner can doesn't concern you?

You didn't answer my question about setting multiple octave sizes within the temperament.

(At lease you spelled my name right! Q isn't even close to K the keyboard. Is Marq even a name?)


Last edited by Mark Cerisano; 06/21/17 04:17 PM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655396 06/21/17 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano

I just measured F2 10 times and got a variation of the 2nd partial of 14 cents! With people claiming precision (and some even accuracy) down to 0.001 cents, how is it possible that these machines can even come close to a reasonable tuning when they can't seem to agree with themselves on the Inharmonicity of the same string played 10 times mezzo forte?


Mark, you really must be doing something wrong. It is very possible for the frequency of that partial to be measurable repeatedly with at least + or - 0.5 cents and I am sure that most reputable tuners can when used correctly.


Chris Leslie
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Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655406 06/21/17 04:42 PM
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I thought I would chime in as I have been following this thread and this is of great interest to me.

I am a classically trained pianist and a hobby tuner who likes to have my piano in tune. I have a 1918 Mason and Hamlin, model A, partially restored. I have used Tunelab and Entropy and generally stick with Tunelab because I can try different temperaments and it doesn't have as many glitches as Entropy. I am completely self-taught and I used ETDs to help me to learn. I realize that my technique is probably decent at best but since I only have to tune my own piano and I tune it regularly, it generally stays in tune (I also keep the lid closed and there is a Damp-Chaser installed). Therefore, stability probably takes care of itself due to the above factors.

I have had many techs tune my piano over the years (both aurally and with ETDs) and the results are mixed. Regardless, I have also found that if I want the piano to sound the way I want it to sound I had to tune it on my own using an ETD. When I use an ETD (usually TuneLab) I tune it according to the device and then tweek a few notes here and there to my liking, often making significant changes in the lower bass. I am sure that I would be completely lost if I tried to tune aurally from scratch with no help from the device.

The first question is this: Would I have been better off first learning to tune aurally and then using an ETD to improve my tunings? I don't know the answer to that. But I will say that learning from an ETD has probably saved me a lot of time. Since I don't do this professionally then it makes sense in my case.

The other questions is this: How good can a tuning be using only an ETD without bias from the tuner's ear? Perhaps someone who owns Tunic OnlyPure (which claims to be able to tune unisons) can tune an entire piano (including unisons) wearing thick ear plugs so that there is no bias from his/her ear.

It seems that ETDs are getting better and better everyday. They have certainly made it possible for someone like me to enjoy my piano more because I am able to keep it in tune.


Piano Player and DIY tuner
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655409 06/21/17 04:49 PM
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There are a number of reasons why an ETD or an aural tuner might not be able to easily hear a particular partial. It could be a weak partial. It could be that the note was played too loudly, causing distortion, or too weakly, so that the partial was buried in the noise. It could be that in particular spots in the vicinity of the piano there are wave interference cancellations, causing the partial to disappear, which would require the ETD and the aural tuner's head to be repositioned out of the cancellation point.

Without specific tests of both aural tuners and various ETD on the same piano, a qualitative judgement is not possible.

One could, however, have an operator set up an ETD to tune a piano prepared for a tuning exam. The operator would manipulate the ETD, have it calculate a temperament and stretch, and then compare it to a 100% exam result. No tuning would be necessary since the point is not unison matching and stability, but quality of the temperament/stretch relative to the standard.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655412 06/21/17 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Originally Posted by Gadzar
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
With all this amazing software that can tune pianos, including unisons, so well out-of-the-box, coupled with the years of training needed to acquire aural skills, with the benefit that "it [only] makes a nice combination", what's the point of even bothering to learn to tune aurally?

Seems to me, if OnlyPure is so good, it's a waste of time to learn aural tuning, especially as I said, when it takes years of struggle and dedicated practice to get good at aural tuning, only to have an "ETD beat aural tuners".

If what you say is true, it's not worth the effort. Please, Raphael, give us your opinion. Many beginning techs are reading this and this is probably the most important question that is in their minds right now.


Marq,

You said that is the first time you use an ETD (Cyber Tuner) to tune a piano. You don't have experience using ETDs. I suggest you to try Tunic Onlypure and then we can talk about how good or bad it is.

Meaningwhile you can ask here Cyber Tuner users how you can get better results with this ETD.



You have the bad habit to criticize what you don't know. So, please try and learn before disqualifying something.


Raphael,

My name is spelt Mark Cerisano. Please try to correct that in the future.

You are evading the question. You say your ETD can tune unisons and octaves and temperament better than aural techniques.

Please tell us why we should learn aural tuning.


Marcq,

My name is not Raphael.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that my ETD can tune unisons and octaves and temperament better than aural techniques.

I said that my ETD, Verituner, can set equal temperament better than most aural tuners. (note the word I use is tuners not techniques).

I said that Tunic Onlypure can tune good unisons.

I said that Verituner allows you to tune many intervals with exactly the width you want them.

I said machines are more consistent and objective than most aural tuners (subjective humans).

And I also said that I don't want to talk about ETD tuning with someone who has no experience using ETDs and who has a bias against them.

That's why I suggest you to tune 20 pianos with Tunic Onlypure, unisons included, before telling it doesn't work. After that, we can talk about the possibilities and fails of this software. If you have never used it you don't know what it is able to do. You really do not have a clue!


Edit: To prove what I say I propose you a challenge. Let's tune, you and me, a temperament from A3 to A4 and post the video. Not the resulting notes but the complete procedure, step by step, tuning A4, then A3, etc... from start to end, with no cuts, no editings, playing test intervals at the end. You will use your preferred aural sequence. I will use my Verituner. We'll ask Kees to measure the beat rates of the pertinent intervals, namely: 8ve, 5ths, 4ths, 3ths, 6ths, following Kees's instructions on how long to play each interval. Let me know when you will be ready to accept this challenge.




Last edited by Gadzar; 06/21/17 06:42 PM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655425 06/21/17 05:51 PM
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Gerry Johnston Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
First I want to say I am open to the benefits of ETDs even though I am primarily an aural tuner.

I have discussed the pros and cons of aural vs ETDs with some of the best known ETD tuners.

We seemed to agree that ETDs produce tunings that are "good enough".

Now, I'm here to discuss the use of ETDs with little to no aural corrections, as I dare to say, is the way most tuners probably use these machines.

Having said that, my recent attempt at tuning a piano with an ETD leaves me wondering if an ETD's tuning is really good enough or not.

My reason for saying this has to do with the way these machines seem to measure Inharmonicity.


Mark -
I think your choice or wording started this thread on a potentially contentious tone. "ETDs produce tunings that are good enough". A lot of purely aural tunings result in tunings that are "good enough" , and some even less so. You go on to say, "Now, I'm here to discuss the use of ETDs with little to no aural corrections, as I dare to say, is the way most tuners probably use these machines." Really? Do you have any evidence to support this assumption?

I do not know a single professional technician who uses an ETD without any aural checking/correcting. There may be some out there who do, but I haven't crossed paths with any of them.

I was a strictly aural tuner for more than 35 years and was quite convinced that it was superior to using an ETD. A few years ago I began experimenting with an ETD just to satisfy my curiosity. It was an "ear opening" experience and, over time, the ETD has become a regular tool in my kit. No, the ETD does not always produce optimum results and there are times when a good deal of aural correction is necessary - particularly on poorly designed spinets or other "PSOs". In fairness though, there are many occasions when aural tuning does not produce optimum results either. There is the case of the poorly designed spinet when "good enough" is as good as it is likely to get. How about the fall/holiday busy season when you arrive at your 6th tuning of the day and you just want to go home and have dinner? I don't know about you, but that is not likely to be my best tuning of the day.

A piano tuner using an ETD is not unlike a carpenter using power tools. Those tools are not a substitute for skill and experience. If we understand what at ETD can and cannot do, and use our ears to fill in the gaps, we can produce more consistent and high quality tunings - even if it is the last tuning of a long day.


Gerry Johnston, Registered Piano Technician
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655444 06/21/17 06:58 PM
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Gerry,

Nice illustration with the carpenter and power tools. BTW...though it may not be relevant, have you ever seen a Japanese wood joiner make incredibly complicated joints with one handsaw (and maybe a chisel)? UNBELIEVABLE ! The craftsmanship!

Anyway, I have been aural for 42 years. I have played with various ETD's. In general I think today's ETD's are pretty amazing, which is exactly why I don't use any (with any regularity). I carry an old phone with Tunelab on it (just in case I feel like it) OR if I happen to be pressed for time and I happen to already have the data done for THAT PIANO and I can blast off the mid section really fast (or just check it).

But I simply prefer to keep my aural skills sharp since I have an aversion to being dependent on a battery. I am generally a analog type person. I have no prejudice against those who do use ETD's regularly, as long as they know how to get the job done well. I know quite a few who do. I also still use 3x5 index cards (that ought to tell you something). If the time comes when I feel I must use an ETD to do a top notch job...i will pick it up in a heartbeat. At present, under normal circumstances I feel better analog.

Just a few thoughts.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655446 06/21/17 07:09 PM
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Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by Marqc Serizanno


(At lease you spelled my name right! Q isn't even close to K the keyboard. Is Marq even a name?)




HAHAHAHAHA! LOL!

P and H are neither close to F.

It amazes me how Marrcqk can see my errors but can't see his own...

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Gadzar] #2655447 06/21/17 07:09 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Originally Posted by Gadzar
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
With all this amazing software that can tune pianos, including unisons, so well out-of-the-box, coupled with the years of training needed to acquire aural skills, with the benefit that "it [only] makes a nice combination", what's the point of even bothering to learn to tune aurally?

Seems to me, if OnlyPure is so good, it's a waste of time to learn aural tuning, especially as I said, when it takes years of struggle and dedicated practice to get good at aural tuning, only to have an "ETD beat aural tuners".

If what you say is true, it's not worth the effort. Please, Raphael, give us your opinion. Many beginning techs are reading this and this is probably the most important question that is in their minds right now.


Marq,

You said that is the first time you use an ETD (Cyber Tuner) to tune a piano. You don't have experience using ETDs. I suggest you to try Tunic Onlypure and then we can talk about how good or bad it is.

Meaningwhile you can ask here Cyber Tuner users how you can get better results with this ETD.



You have the bad habit to criticize what you don't know. So, please try and learn before disqualifying something.


Raphael,

My name is spelt Mark Cerisano. Please try to correct that in the future.

You are evading the question. You say your ETD can tune unisons and octaves and temperament better than aural techniques.

Please tell us why we should learn aural tuning.


Marcq,

My name is not Raphael.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that my ETD can tune unisons and octaves and temperament better than aural techniques.

I said that my ETD, Verituner, can set equal temperament better than most aural tuners. (note the word I use is tuners not techniques).

I said that Tunic Onlypure can tune good unisons.

I said that Verituner allows you to tune many intervals with exactly the width you want them.

I said machines are more consistent and objective than most aural tuners (subjective humans).

And I also said that I don't want to talk about ETD tuning with someone who has no experience using ETDs and who has a bias against them.

That's why I suggest you to tune 20 pianos with Tunic Onlypure, unisons included, before telling it doesn't work. After that, we can talk about the possibilities and fails of this software. If you have never used it you don't know what it is able to do. You really do not have a clue!


Edit: To prove what I say I propose you a challenge. Let's tune, you and me, a temperament from A3 to A4 and post the video. Not the resulting notes but the complete procedure, step by step, tuning A4, then A3, etc... from start to end, with no cuts, no editings, playing test intervals at the end. You will use your preferred aural sequence. I will use my Verituner. We'll ask Kees to measure the beat rates of the pertinent intervals, namely: 8ve, 5ths, 4ths, 3ths, 6ths, following Kees's instructions on how long to play each interval. Let me know when you will be ready to accept this challenge.





Why do you continue to spell my my name wrong? It's so funny, Rafael. (You see? I just looked up your profile. You do not even have to do that. Just look at my signature.

You say I am putting words in your mouth. Well let's see what your words really are.

You say "You have the bad habit to criticize". Critical thought is the basis of the scientific scientific method. Oh, but right, you did say you are not a scientist.

You say "...there are in the market some ETDs that can produce quality "out of the box" tunings and that require no aural skills from the user, and allow visual tuners to produce better tunings than many aural tuners."

You say "quality" and "out-of-the-box". And you say "better than many aural tuners"

So I will ask you a third time, do you think, considering the massive amount of work needed to learn aural piano tuning, that beginners should forget about learning to tune aurally and just trust the quality tunings of these new ETDs? So many future piano technicians are waiting for your advice.

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655449 06/21/17 07:25 PM
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Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Why do you continue to spell my my name wrong? It's so funny, Rafael. (You see? I just looked up your profile. You do not even have to do that. Just look at my signature.


Finally, in this very post, it's the first time you correctly spell my name, wich appears in my signature in each and every one of my posts.

Do you were offended by me misspelling your name? So did I.

You have misspelled my name for months. Me, I have misspelled your name for days.

I won't continue arguing with you, it makes no sense. You are not going to accept my points, neither am I going to accept yours.

Instead of a steril arguing I have posed you a challenge, do you accept it?

Maybe, you have not read it, I posted it in an edit at the end of my post above, here it is for your ease

Aural vs ETD Challenge



Last edited by Gadzar; 06/21/17 07:26 PM.
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655450 06/21/17 07:33 PM
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Excellent question from Mark for the aural tuners out there...

Assuming there is a time when an ETD calculation reliably does a more even ET, a better stretch for any particular piano, easy alternate temperament tuning....(leave out whether we are there now or not) what are the reasons for techs to go through aural temperament training?

Remember, the assumption is that ETD calculation is equal or better than aural tuners can achieve on a day to day basis.

1. Battery anxiety? (kindof a moot point with the ease of backup gear)
2. Hazing? (I went through it, so should the new techs!)
3. control issues? (That's one I really respect - I understand the love of making something all on your own!)
4. ????


Ron Koval

Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: RonTuner] #2655451 06/21/17 07:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 184
G
Gerry Johnston Offline
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 184
Peter -
I am generally reluctant to become overly dependent on technology. However, I don't rebuild pianos and, therefore, am guessing that I spend a lot more time tuning than you do. There came a point when my cautionary approach to technology was overtaken by my desire to give my ears a rest. A full day of tuning can leave the head "swimming".

Ron -
There is something very satisfying about being able to produce work without the assistance of modern technology. Perhaps it's just the pride of participating in the tradition, not unlike fishing without any sort of sonar or other electronic aids. But, after tuning aurally for 35 years and completing somewhere north of 25-30,000 tunings, the satisfaction of doing it the old way began to fade.

Nonetheless, there are frequent situations where those aural skills are invaluable. A poorly scaled piano for instance. Or, determining how much stretch is appropriate for a given piano - this part is always about listening skills.

I have never regretted for an instant the time it took to learn aural skills in the first place. Further, I believe that technicians who do not develop at least some level of aural competence will always be at a disadvantage,


Gerry Johnston, Registered Piano Technician
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com
Re: Another ETD thread. [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2655454 06/21/17 08:09 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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I can see now that you were offended by my error in misspelling your name. For that I apologize. In fairness, it is not written in your signature, just Gadzar. Next time, if I offend, please just let me know, like I did you.

As for the challenge, I'm not biting.

As for my question, for the fourth time, please tell beginner tuners what you suggest they do re:aural tuning, Yay or Nay?

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