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#2654766 - 06/19/17 07:08 AM KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update?  
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Hi Kawai James,

It's awesome that MP7 can play microtonal music, I also play/record in studio non-western music, here in Morocco for example we use lot of microtonal scales called MAQAM. However I find the user stretch tuning: +50/-50 cents is very limited for producing some specific maqams witch requires for example a setting like: +00 -77 - 66 +100 etc....

Would it be possible to expand the range from +/-50 to +/-100 cents? and if possible expand the user tuning presets from 2 presets to 5 or 10 presets that we can store easily in case we need them for further use. I'll be grateful to see a beta update featuring this. Many thanks in advance for your kind help.


—Nor Eddine Bahha (Nordine)

KAWAI MP7, KORG TRITON EXTREME/MOSS, VILABS AUDIO TRUEKEYS & RAVENSCROFT, ACOUSTICSAMPLES YAMAHA C7, KAWAI EX PRO, GALAXY VINTAGE D, EMOTIONAL SOUNDIRON, C. BECHSTEIN DIGITAL GRAND, SCARBEE VINTAGE KEYS, IMPACT SOUNDWORKS PEARL CONCERT GRAND, EZKEYS STUDIO GRAND
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#2655013 - 06/20/17 02:18 AM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Hello Nor,

Thank you for posting this suggestion.

I honestly do not know if what you request is possible, however I shall submit it to the product development team for consideration.

Kind regards,
James
x

ps. Nice avatar image! wink


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2655033 - 06/20/17 04:54 AM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Hello again Nor,

I queried this point with the product development team, who concluded that such a change would be difficult to implement.

However, I gather that the current range of +/- 50 cents should allow the full range of pitches to be sent. For example, C+50 cent is the same pitch as C#-50.

Thank you once again for this suggestion.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2655038 - 06/20/17 06:35 AM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Buy a second keyboard and tune that keyboard 50 cents higher than the other. For me, micro tuning sounds out of tune but what do I know.

Last edited by Dave Horne; 06/20/17 06:42 AM.


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#2655378 - 06/21/17 03:42 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Hi Nor,

I am very glad to know that someone else besides me is interested in microtuning on the MP7/MP11 keyboards! smile

I had an MP11 (lost in a catastrophic wildfire -- now I'm waiting for the MP12). When I first received my MP11 the microtuning implementation was weak. In a long process, working with Alan Palmer of Kawai who was the communication link with Kawai Japan, we made many improvements and the current implementation is, as far as I know, the best on any stage piano.

However, I was not able to get everything I asked for, and the things you are requesting are among those things that didn't get implemented. You are absolutely correct -- a truly functional microtuning implementation should allow at least a tuning range of +/- 100 cents for each key (preferably more, as I propose below), and there should be at least 5 user tunings (not 2) that can be stored. (This always puzzled me because the other parameters on the same page all have 5 user slots, but the microtuning only 2, for no apparent good reason!) I am hoping that at least these enhancements will be included in the next generation of Kawai stage pianos -- the "MP12" (if that's what it will be called) and the next generation of the MP7 (whatever that will be called -- they already used MP8).

The fact that you can get the pitch you need on the adjacent key is not much consolation. What if you need that key for another pitch? Then you're stuck with the inadequate tuning range of +/- 50 cents. And even if you don't need the adjacent key for another note, it might create an awkward key pattern to get the scale you need.

All manufacturers of electronic keyboards of any kind should listen to this: There is not a single good reason why you should not be able to tune any key to any pitch! In the age of electronic keyboards, this is easy to implement and it is only stodgy antiquated thinking that prevents this from being the case. Before the fire I did have one instrument that did allow this flexibility: the Korg OASYS PCI. It had the best microtuning implementation ever: unlimited number of full range scales (all 128 MIDI notes), and each key could play any pitch (to one cent resolution). This was easily accomplished by simply assigning two tuning parameters to each key: coarse tuning (any key could play any note) and fine tuning (+/- 100 cents per key). This solves any microtuning issue elegantly and easily.

Unfortunately keyboard manufacturers, while having made great strides in the tones that can be produced by electronic keyboards, are still stuck in the 18th century when it comes to keyboard layout. Again, it's simple. The user should be able to play any pitch from any key! Why not? It's easy to implement and while most players aren't going to use it (that's a given), why not give those who will use it what they really need? Especially when it's so easy to do so.

If Kawai (or any other manufacturer) will do this, they will sell enough more instruments to cover the very small cost of providing this implementation, and more, and therefore make a profit by doing so. And at the same time pleasing a small but definitely existing category of users.

#2655386 - 06/21/17 04:30 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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+1 Savante, I totally I agree with you! However I use my old KORG TRITON EXTREME/MOSS for lead solos with micro-tunings, beside that I pitch bend the note this way I get a true authentic playing at least for oriental and north-african music styles.

Last edited by Nor; 06/21/17 04:37 PM. Reason: correction

—Nor Eddine Bahha (Nordine)

KAWAI MP7, KORG TRITON EXTREME/MOSS, VILABS AUDIO TRUEKEYS & RAVENSCROFT, ACOUSTICSAMPLES YAMAHA C7, KAWAI EX PRO, GALAXY VINTAGE D, EMOTIONAL SOUNDIRON, C. BECHSTEIN DIGITAL GRAND, SCARBEE VINTAGE KEYS, IMPACT SOUNDWORKS PEARL CONCERT GRAND, EZKEYS STUDIO GRAND
#2655388 - 06/21/17 04:39 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Hi again Nor,

Here's an example (by me) of pitch bend (using a ribbon controller) used in conjunction with a microtuned scale (based on an Indian raga scale). All the synths used for producing the tones are Korg, the keyboard controller is a Kawai MP5, and the ribbon is a Doepfer R2M.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX1fHKsjwaA

#2655508 - 06/22/17 04:11 AM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Savante! excellent playing! Are you from India? I all the time tried to imitate the sound of Sitar or Bansuri but it's just hard doing so.


—Nor Eddine Bahha (Nordine)

KAWAI MP7, KORG TRITON EXTREME/MOSS, VILABS AUDIO TRUEKEYS & RAVENSCROFT, ACOUSTICSAMPLES YAMAHA C7, KAWAI EX PRO, GALAXY VINTAGE D, EMOTIONAL SOUNDIRON, C. BECHSTEIN DIGITAL GRAND, SCARBEE VINTAGE KEYS, IMPACT SOUNDWORKS PEARL CONCERT GRAND, EZKEYS STUDIO GRAND
#2655583 - 06/22/17 12:27 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Thanks Nor. I am not from India but I did study music there. My musical background is as a pianist.

The video is an effort to produce raga-type melodic improvisation (though not an actual traditional raga), but not to imitate any particular Indian instrument. I think that when used in this way, the keyboard can be a very effective instrument for melody playing, and even could be used to play raga.

My main objective is to free the keyboard of some of its characteristic limitations in melody playing. The important features employed here to do that are the use of the scale tuning and the ribbon controller. The ribbon controller allows a vastly superior means of executing pitch bends over the usual pitch wheel or joystick.

I would like to see more musicians using the ribbon controller as an integral part of melody playing. Mostly it seems to be used just to produce special effects, when it is used at all. The video is attempt to demonstrate a different approach to melody playing on a keyboard instrument.

#2655614 - 06/22/17 02:55 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Well, talking about ribbon controller, here's a friend of mine from greece playng with it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXeTPPRXxMY


i

Last edited by Nor; 06/22/17 02:57 PM.

—Nor Eddine Bahha (Nordine)

KAWAI MP7, KORG TRITON EXTREME/MOSS, VILABS AUDIO TRUEKEYS & RAVENSCROFT, ACOUSTICSAMPLES YAMAHA C7, KAWAI EX PRO, GALAXY VINTAGE D, EMOTIONAL SOUNDIRON, C. BECHSTEIN DIGITAL GRAND, SCARBEE VINTAGE KEYS, IMPACT SOUNDWORKS PEARL CONCERT GRAND, EZKEYS STUDIO GRAND
#2655623 - 06/22/17 03:25 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Savante]  
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Originally Posted by Savante
Before the fire I did have one instrument that did allow this flexibility: the Korg OASYS PCI.

That's why I chose the Korg Kronos last fall for my current favorite piano/synth. I like to have as much programmability as possible, including how to tune every single key.

#2655626 - 06/22/17 03:32 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Bosendorff]  
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Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by Savante
Before the fire I did have one instrument that did allow this flexibility: the Korg OASYS PCI.

That's why I chose the Korg Kronos last fall for my current favorite piano/synth. I like to have as much programmability as possible, including how to tune every single key.


Yes, I now have a Korg Kronos also. I just got it a few weeks ago. I'm totally in love with it -- a truly amazing instrument. The Korg microtuning (or "scale tuning") implementation is excellent. Having a lot of experience with Korg synths gives me some advantage in programming this beast, but I still have a long, long ways to go to master it.

The sound quality of the Kronos is outstanding -- for all nine synth engines. And to my surprise (because of negative opinions I've seen) I like the RH3 keyboard for piano playing! Not the best ever, but very playable and pleasurable to play.

#2655631 - 06/22/17 03:43 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Hi Savante,

I feel exactly the same too about the Kronos and the RH3 action. I took time to try all the other top instruments from other brands before choosing it. BTW, if you work with a computer close to your Kronos and want to create your own velocity curves, I found a way how to do it. The response gets even better. Just by curiosity, for acoustic pianos on the Kronos do you prefer curve # 4 or # 9 ?

#2655639 - 06/22/17 04:33 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Bosendorff]  
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Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Hi Savante,

I feel exactly the same too about the Kronos and the RH3 action. I took time to try all the other top instruments from other brands before choosing it. BTW, if you work with a computer close to your Kronos and want to create your own velocity curves, I found a way how to do it. The response gets even better. Just by curiosity, for acoustic pianos on the Kronos do you prefer curve # 4 or # 9 ?


I've had the instrument such a short time that I haven't gotten into experimenting with the velocity curves. I've just used #4 for APs. I think I've spent more time with the EPs, which are incredibly excellent! I also like to layer an AP with an EP (in different proportions) and the Quick Layer feature is wonderful for experimenting with this easily.

I would love to know your secret for customizing velocity curves using a computer! Though I haven't gotten into that yet on the Kronos, I have worked extensively with velocity curves on other instruments, and they are very important in getting the best response from the instrument.


#2655640 - 06/22/17 04:45 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Just now looking at the velocity curve diagrams (Parameter Guide, p. 764), #9 looks interesting. It should give very sensitive control of softer dynamics (ppp, pp, p). Right? I'll experiment with this later this evening.

#2655675 - 06/22/17 06:49 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Savante]  
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There is not a single good reason why you should not be able to tune any key to any pitch! In the age of electronic keyboards, this is easy to implement and it is only stodgy antiquated thinking that prevents this from being the case.

Really? ... stodgy and antiquated

What makes equal tempered tuning enduring is ... polyphony.

Compose a piece of music using micro tonality and be sure to use polyphony. Give it a listen and get back to us.



website | mp3\wav files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
#2655678 - 06/22/17 07:06 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Dave Horne]  
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
There is not a single good reason why you should not be able to tune any key to any pitch! In the age of electronic keyboards, this is easy to implement and it is only stodgy antiquated thinking that prevents this from being the case.

Really? ... stodgy and antiquated

What makes equal tempered tuning enduring is ... polyphony.

Compose a piece of music using micro tonality and be sure to use polyphony. Give it a listen and get back to us.



I used the expression "stodgy antiquated" to refer to freezing the keyboard layout and not allowing users to assign any key to any pitch, not to say that using equal temperament is stodgy and antiquated. You misread my comment completely.

There are many possible creative and imaginative uses for reassigning keys on the keyboard to different pitches in equal temperament that are not possible because of the stodgy and antiquated way that users are not allowed to reassign the note that is played by any given key.

As for polyphony, are you not aware that Bach -- the greatest master of polyphony ever -- did NOT use equal temperament? He was aware of equal temperament -- it was known during his time but rarely used. Bach found some of the intervals of equal temperament, such as thirds and sixths, to be too far out of tune to be acceptable. Bach's tunings are an interesting subject and you can find a lot of information about them on the internet. But you won't find anything saying that Bach used equal temperament -- he didn't.

Equal temperament did not become the standard in Western classical music until the mid-nineteenth century. This is not only after Bach's time, but also after Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, and many others whose music is today played in equal temperament but was neither written by nor played by the composers themselves in that tuning.

I believe you can find examples on YouTube of Bach's music played in the original non-equally tempered tunings that he used.

I'm not against equal temperament. It has it's place and I use it when I play most classical and popular music on the piano.

Again, you totally misread my comment, which was about the lack of ability to reassign notes on the keyboard to different pitches, including different notes of equally tempered scales, on most electronic keyboards available today.

#2655681 - 06/22/17 07:35 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Compose a piece of music using micro tonality that is polyphonic and share it with us.

That's all I'm asking.

I'll withhold my opinion until others have listened to it. Fair enough?



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#2655684 - 06/22/17 07:58 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Dave Horne]  
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Compose a piece of music using micro tonality that is polyphonic and share it with us.

That's all I'm asking.

I'll withhold my opinion until others have listened to it. Fair enough?




No, not "fair enough" at all. I'll compose what I want, when I want, and not at the dictate of you or anyone else.

As I pointed out earlier, you can find examples of polyphonic music composed and performed in non-equally tempered tunings if you're interested. It's not my interest.

#2655686 - 06/22/17 08:00 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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By definition, a microtone is simply an interval smaller than a semitone. Microtonal does not imply using more than 12 divisions per octave. So there are myriads of examples of polyphonic microtonal music, including any music using UTs, blues scales, etc.

#2655688 - 06/22/17 08:11 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Hi Savante, interesting to read that you also enjoy using UTs. Again, that was one of the main criteria I needed to verify before choosing my new digital instrument. About creating custom velocity curves for the Kronos, all you need besides your Kronos is a computer, the MIDI-OX freeware, and MIDI connections/interface. The MIDI-OX freeware is much more than just a diagnostic tool. Since this is rather off this topic, I can send you more info if needed by PM.

#2655693 - 06/22/17 08:34 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Bosendorff]  
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Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Hi Savante, interesting to read that you also enjoy using UTs. Again, that was one of the main criteria I needed to verify before choosing my new digital instrument. About creating custom velocity curves for the Kronos, all you need besides your Kronos is a computer, the MIDI-OX freeware, and MIDI connections/interface. The MIDI-OX freeware is much more than just a diagnostic tool. Since this is rather off this topic, I can send you more info if needed by PM.


Thank you, Bosendorff. I have MIDI-OX and have used it for certain specialized applications. I also have a MIDI interface which I can use to connect the Kronos to the computer. I would be more than happy to hear from you by PM about creating custom velocity curves for the Kronos.

Or, if you don't mind providing the information on the open forum, perhaps in another thread (yes, this is Nor's thread about a different topic) it might be useful to others as well. Whichever -- I'll be happy to learn the technique!

#2655698 - 06/22/17 09:02 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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Hi again Savante, I invite you to check http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=109628. I doubt many people are interested as most users here are talking about more "traditional" DPs. Also, I think that as a Kronos owner, you should also know and use that other forum - it is a very good place to share info about the Kronos (my display name there is KK).

#2655703 - 06/22/17 09:22 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Bosendorff]  
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Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Hi again Savante, I invite you to check http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=109628. I doubt many people are interested as most users here are talking about more "traditional" DPs. Also, I think that as a Kronos owner, you should also know and use that other forum - it is a very good place to share info about the Kronos (my display name there is KK).


Thank you! That's quite brilliant!

I'm on the Korg Forums too, same display name as here, but I haven't been there since I got my Kronos just a few weeks ago. I'll participate there more over time, I'm sure. So far, I'm still exploring the presets, experimenting with a few layers, and just getting oriented -- and having fun enjoying this magnificent instrument!

#2655708 - 06/22/17 09:42 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Savante]  
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Originally Posted by Savante
Here's an example (by me) of pitch bend (using a ribbon controller) used in conjunction with a microtuned scale (based on an Indian raga scale). All the synths used for producing the tones are Korg, the keyboard controller is a Kawai MP5, and the ribbon is a Doepfer R2M.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX1fHKsjwaA


Thank you for sharing your video, Savante.

I shall have to confess that I do not have strong knowledge on this particular topic, however it certainly makes for fascinating reading (and listening), so thank you again for sharing your insights.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2655710 - 06/22/17 09:46 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Savante
Here's an example (by me) of pitch bend (using a ribbon controller) used in conjunction with a microtuned scale (based on an Indian raga scale). All the synths used for producing the tones are Korg, the keyboard controller is a Kawai MP5, and the ribbon is a Doepfer R2M.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX1fHKsjwaA


Thank you for sharing your video, Savante.

I shall have to confess that I do not have strong knowledge on this particular topic, however it certainly makes for fascinating reading (and listening), so thank you again for sharing your insights.

Kind regards,
James
x


Thank you for the kind words, James. We've been in touch before and you have always been very helpful to me. You are a great asset to this forum and I (and many others!) are grateful for your contributions here.

#2655711 - 06/22/17 10:03 PM Re: KAWAI MP7: Micro-tuning — any possible update? [Re: Nor]  
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