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In the LA times crossword for Sunday, 28 May, 2017, the clue for 108 down was "Steinway competitor." The answer, in six letters was ... "Yamaha."

Really?

Cheers!

Is it wrong though? I mean, I know Steinway doesn't build motorcycles and all that fun stuff, but they do compete in the piano arena.

That yamaha CFX is a most wonderful piano, It might not be a steinway, but it is something grand in its own right, so I would say it is indeed a competitor.

I thought the clue meant "Samick." I, too, was puzzled. But what do enigmatologists know about pianos?

Yamaha, with their new CFX, is one of Steinway's biggest competitors on the concert stage. There is a pretty long list of Yamaha artists(classical) on their roster, including at least one member of PW. It is also one of the few other makers that the average person can name.

You sly little troll.

As far as the general public is concerned, Steinway's primary competitor is Yamaha. Both brands have high name recognition.

Very true. A friend of mine is playing a concert at Carnegie Hall this coming Thursday. The piano will be a Yamaha CFX.

Well the "correct" answer is a compound word; "Rebuilt Steinway".

In terms of 'prestige' Steinway has few if any competitors.
In terms of quality and sound, there are plenty.
We, and I'm sure many other dealers, are seeing this on a regular, virtually weekly basis.
In terms of all brands combined, there's incredibly fierce competition everywhere.
These are the facts. Dealers will understand this and so will discriminating buyers.
The "just a rebuilt Steinway" mentioned option is in reality very small.
Norbert

But very much worth looking at.

Very true, Ed. Unfortunately, there are not enough fine rebuilders to generate enough professional level pianos for each marketplace, are there? I think with the amount of resources available to to young people entering the field today, that might change.

There's no doubt that Steinway builds very fine pianos, and there's no doubt that their aggressive marketing has helped to keep them in an exalted position in the minds of many pianists and almost all nonpianists. However, I think there is a downside to their marketing that, especially in the future, can hurt them. First, their assertion that they perfected the piano almost 100 years ago is not only absurd, but prevents them from making substantive and visually obvious changes to their designs. To do so would be an admission that their designs aren't perfect. By comparison, other piano companies have no compunction about improving their designs.
Second, by claiming their perfection, Steinway can't evolve their construction methods, requiring them to use, in many cases, 19th-century designs and manufacturing methods that grossly increase their labor costs. One item that comes to mind is their fluted brass action rails. The patent on these ran out years ago, and if they were so superior, all their competitors could use an identical or similar design. The fact that none do speaks volumes. I'm confident that someone who is an expert in piano manufacturing could come up with a laundry list of changes that would increase manufacturing efficiency without affecting tone and touch. High labor costs translate into high prices, and many people who would otherwise buy a Steinway are simply priced out of them. I'm thinking especially of their smaller grands like the S and M, whose prices are out in the stratosphere.

Roy123, very good evaluation of Steinway. I feel that although they are mostly courting pianists, they might also be courting the rich or those desiring "luxury," if that makes sense. I feel that Steinway S's and M's are, should I say, cash grabs from those clientele who want to impress.

But this competition, not only from Yamaha but from European pianos increasingly penetrating the American market, has let NY Steinway introduce some improvements recently. Only time will tell how far they will continue on this route in the future.

Steinway is Steinway, but it's not exactly as if your thumbs will drop off if you touch a Yamaha. Or even a Kawai.

I think there are some factual errors in this post.

NY Steinway has made many improvements in their pianos in recent years as outlined in the Piano Buyer several years ago. None of these were major changes but this is also true of the piano industry in general. Steinway also introduced Spirio player system a few years ago. Even when other makers do change their scale designs these are mostly small changes.

As far as not changing their action rails, I doubt Steinway didn't change them because they feel they can't change something that was "perfected 100 years ago". If they changed the rails, I doubt many consumers would know or care (if they did know). If Steinway claims they perfected the piano 100 years ago(don't know where you read this), they probably mean the basic design of the piano that most other makers eventually adopted. While Steinway is not as automated as some manufacturers, I don't think it's true that their production is the same as 100 years ago, and they have added more automation in the past decades.

I am not a Steinway fanboy but I don't think the post I quoted was accurate.

It seems a bit strange (but not surprising) that a thread about a simple cross-word puzzle in a local newspaper has morphed into another debate about the pros and cons of Steinway & Sons pianos.

This phrase is probably politically incorrect with all the animal-rights activist these days, but, as we say here in the south, "I don't have a dog in this fight", meaning I'm not necessarily on one side or the other. That said, Roy123 did make a comment that I more or less disagree with, and it is absolutely nothing against Roy123; I always enjoy reading his posts. Here are the comments:
Although I have no hard data, statistics, research or evidence to back this up, I doubt very seriously that Steinway pays their skilled employees an above average, middle-class wage. And, I doubt very seriously the high cost of Steinway pianos is because they pay their employees so well. In my view, the high cost of Steinway & Sons pianos is a result of the company demanding such a high price in the market-place compared to other piano manufacturers because they can.

I would venture to say, and again, this is pure speculation on my part, that the bulk of the profit goes into the coffers of the company, and not the pocket of the employees or suppliers. But, this is just my opinion based on a gut feeling. I'm not much of a gambler, but if I were, I'd bet on it...

All the best!

Rick

What I read in ROY123's comments is more that the design details of the Steinway have some rather obvious failings from a production line efficiency analysis viewpoint.

It is true the factory has implemented vastly improved machinery and climate controls that have helped quality and efficiency.

The pay to the workers must be competitive with the economy of NY or no one would work there.

I have not inspected it but I have been told the plate foundry now has CNC machinery to drill the plates. If these machines are properly programmed, this should vastly improve quality. I truly hope they have implemented the proper specifications for the V-bar.

I still think the "correct" answer to "Steinway competitor" is "re-built Steinway" The company certainly acts like that is the case.

Everything you said makes sense, Ed.

However, I still say that the high cost of new Steinway & Sons grand pianos is not due to excessive labor cost. I'm open minded and could be convinced otherwise, but for now I'm going with my gut instincts...

Rick

Not being an expert on Steinways or any others, but I have heard there are significant differences between the New York produced Steinways and the Hamburg, Germany Steinways. It's interesting they are both from the same company but produced differently. Do you have an opinion as to which you think are better?

Steve
Bösendorfer 170