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8-year old starting lessons
#2648740 05/30/17 09:28 PM
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My 7-year-old grandson (almost 8!) wants to take lessons and his mother was asking me about keyboards. She doesn't want to get a piano until they see if he's going to stick with it.
I'd like to get input from a teacher's perspective. I've suggested she should get an 88-key hammer action keyboard, like the Casio PX-160 or equivalent. Does this seem like a reasonable recommendation, and how long might this work for him, if he decides to stick with it. Would a smaller, lighter keyboard perhaps work for a while, say a 61-key synth action keyboard, or is that a bad idea?
Thanks for any input. Since I was an adult when I started, I really don't have a clue what might be appropriate for a child. Plus, I don't live close enough to help them shop.

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Re: 8-year old starting lessons
EP #2648765 05/30/17 11:16 PM
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I am not a teacher but I am a long-time player.

Unweighted 61-key actions don't help you learn how to move right at piano. You can learn piano on a decent 88-key weighted keyboard and it's probably fine for a starting kid for a reasonable amount of time. The price difference between the former and the latter is not insane and you'd be setting your grandson up much better for continued study.

Moving right at the piano is not necessarily a kid beginner thing (though in some respects it is), but 61-key keyboard -> 88-key digital -> 88-key acoustic (if he really gets into it) is more money in the end than 88-key digital -> 88-key acoustic, and if you go the latter route, your grandson will be better accustomed to the feel of the instrument from the get-go.

I feel like starting with 61-key unweighted is like assuming that your grandkid will fail. (Albeit, the majority of kids who start piano do not continue into adulthood, and those who do are arguably insane.)

Last edited by Whizbang; 05/30/17 11:16 PM.

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Re: 8-year old starting lessons
EP #2648773 05/30/17 11:54 PM
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As the owner of a baby grand piano that someone else decided I should have (and which I never really planned for until it appeared unbidden in my life), I say: get the best instrument your money can buy. It will increase the likelihood that your grandson will stick with piano lessons.

I think Whizbang is right. Getting him a 61-key unweighted keyboard is like assuming he will fail. There's lots of music you can technically play on it (for instance, Haydn and Mozart wrote all of their music at a time when the piano had a range of no more than 61 keys), but it feels very different than a weighted keyboard or an acoustic piano. More importantly, it lacks the defining characteristic of the piano: you can't vary the dynamics (loud / soft) through your touch on an unweighted keyboard. So that's a hurdle your grandson will bump into from the very beginning, if all he has is a 61-key unweighted keyboard. You don't have to believe he will last into adulthood in order to get him a 'real' piano. You only have to believe he will make it past the first two lessons or so.

Making real music on a piano is all about dynamics; otherwise, it sounds pretty much like a computer-generated MIDI file. Don't deny your grandson the pleasure of making real music!


Plodding through piano music at a frustratingly slow pace since 9/2012.

Standard disclaimer: I teach many things. Piano is not one of them.
Re: 8-year old starting lessons
EP #2648776 05/31/17 12:11 AM
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In my experience, students won't get very far on unweighted keyboards. I have two students who are trudging along on their toy keyboards, both having had lessons for over 2 years and still stuck in method books. They don't understand dynamics. They have no finger strength or technique to speak of. I don't see how they are having any fun doing this. It's not like their parents can't afford better instruments.


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Re: 8-year old starting lessons
EP #2648777 05/31/17 12:22 AM
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Thanks for the responses. They pretty much echo my own thoughts - I just don't know how long it takes a child to get past the point of just figuring out which key to push for which note, and get to actually making some music. I suppose not very long if they put some effort into it.
Of course if it were up to me they'd get him a grand piano so I would have something to play when I visit. ha
It's not my money, so I don't want my own enthusiasm for pianos to make them think they need to make a major investment unnecessarily.
The point about assuming he will fail is a good point.

Re: 8-year old starting lessons
EP #2648805 05/31/17 06:18 AM
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I have a 10 year old that's been playing for almost 4 years. It took us 4 tries to get an instrument we were truly happy with. Here's our story....

We started with a 61 key unweighted keyboard for my son. We bought one used at a yard sale for 10 dollars (probably 150 dollars new). He used it for 4 months. It was our test to see if piano would stick at all.

We then upgraded to a Yamaha DGX-650 digital weighted keyboard which was 1k. It was really an awful instrument because it was sold as like a piano in terms of key weighting-which is really a marketing ploy. He used it for less than 4 months.. I truly regret the purchase.

Then we bought a 1960's studio upright for about 1k...I was really happy with the instrument because it gave my son the ability to practice on a real piano while we figured out if piano would really stick. He used it for 15 months. I'm glad that we didn't spend much on it though because it gave us more flexibility in buying our current one. I would have felt really bad if we had paid a significant sum for a upright only to upgrade a year later

Finally, we bought a 1960's Yamaha grand piano which we've had for over 2 years. We love the sound and dynamic range- but there is no way I would have spent that type of money we did until we were fairly confident that piano would stick for a long time. We also took our time buying it and we got an excellent deal on it.


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Re: 8-year old starting lessons
pianoMom2006 #2648810 05/31/17 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoMom2006
I have a 10 year old that's been playing for almost 4 years. It took us 4 tries to get an instrument we were truly happy with. Here's our story....

We started with a 61 key unweighted keyboard for my son. We bought one used at a yard sale for 10 dollars (probably 150 dollars new). He used it for 4 months. It was our test to see if piano would stick at all.

We then upgraded to a Yamaha DGX-650 digital weighted keyboard which was 1k. It was really an awful instrument because it was sold as like a piano in terms of key weighting-which is really a marketing ploy. He used it for less than 4 months.. I truly regret the purchase.

Then we bought a 1960's studio upright for about 1k...I was really happy with the instrument because it gave my son the ability to practice on a real piano while we figured out if piano would really stick. He used it for 15 months. I'm glad that we didn't spend much on it though because it gave us more flexibility in buying our current one. I would have felt really bad if we had paid a significant sum for a upright only to upgrade a year later

Finally, we bought a 1960's Yamaha grand piano which we've had for over 2 years. We love the sound and dynamic range- but there is no way I would have spent that type of money we did until we were fairly confident that piano would stick for a long time. We also took our time buying it and we got an excellent deal on it.

Thank you for sharing your experience here. I always recommend that you buy the best piano you can reasonably afford. The Casio PX-160 is a fine instrument to begin on. Others to consider are the Kawai ES-110, Roland FP-30 and Yamaha P115. If I have a student on a keyboard, they usually lose interest after a couple of months because a keyboard is really a different instrument than a piano.

So if EP's daughter-in-law (?) wants to buy a 61-key keyboard, hopefully she'll be willing to upgrade in a couple of months. Seems like a waste of time and money to me, however.

Another option is to rent a piano. Often piano dealers will deliver a piano to your home and you pay a monthly fee. After 6 months, you can use your rent payments towards the purchase of a new instrument, or continue renting. Many dealers have arrangements like this, and can help with purchasing a nicer instrument once you have a good idea of the child will stick with lessons.


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Re: 8-year old starting lessons
EP #2648814 05/31/17 07:27 AM
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Hadn't thought about the rental idea. I'll suggest that to her.

Re: 8-year old starting lessons
Saranoya #2648832 05/31/17 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Saranoya
. . .

I think Whizbang is right. Getting him a 61-key unweighted keyboard is like assuming he will fail. There's lots of music you can technically play on it (for instance, Haydn and Mozart wrote all of their music at a time when the piano had a range of no more than 61 keys), but it feels very different than a weighted keyboard or an acoustic piano. More importantly, it lacks the defining characteristic of the piano: you can't vary the dynamics (loud / soft) through your touch on an unweighted keyboard. So that's a hurdle your grandson will bump into from the very beginning, if all he has is a 61-key unweighted keyboard. You don't have to believe he will last into adulthood in order to get him a 'real' piano. You only have to believe he will make it past the first two lessons or so.

Making real music on a piano is all about dynamics; otherwise, it sounds pretty much like a computer-generated MIDI file. Don't deny your grandson the pleasure of making real music!


I'm going to pick on a nit. The bold-face statement isn't true.

This post confuses two different things:

. . . "weighted" vs "unweighted";

. . . "touch-sensitive" keys vs "constant loudness" or "organ-style" keys.

You can find lots of _unweighted_ keyboards (the key works against a spring -- also called "synth action") that have _touch-sensitive_ keys that let you vary dynamics. It's a classic combination for synthesizers, and many of the Yamaha "PSR" series keyboards work like that. They're "organ-style" (on/off) for the lowest-price models, but "touch-sensitive" for the medium and high-price range.

So you _can_ play piano music, with dynamics, on an unweighted, touch-sensitive keyboard.

Having said that (and having played on unweighted, touch-sensitive keyboards), I think Morodiene and others are right:

. . . It's much nicer to play on weighted keys.

I also think that 61 keys is the absolute minimum that will let someone play two-handed music. If portability is important, a 61-key or 73-key instrument might make sense. But it's a compromise. With 88 keys, you can play _anything_.

Morodiene's list is an excellent starting point. If money is tight, check Craigslist for Yamaha P105 and Casio PX-150 pianos. They're "previous generation", but quite similar to the P115 and PX-160.


. Charles
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Re: 8-year old starting lessons
Morodiene #2648837 05/31/17 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by pianoMom2006
I have a 10 year old that's been playing for almost 4 years. It took us 4 tries to get an instrument we were truly happy with. Here's our story....

We started with a 61 key unweighted keyboard for my son. We bought one used at a yard sale for 10 dollars (probably 150 dollars new). He used it for 4 months. It was our test to see if piano would stick at all.

We then upgraded to a Yamaha DGX-650 digital weighted keyboard which was 1k. It was really an awful instrument because it was sold as like a piano in terms of key weighting-which is really a marketing ploy. He used it for less than 4 months.. I truly regret the purchase.

Then we bought a 1960's studio upright for about 1k...I was really happy with the instrument because it gave my son the ability to practice on a real piano while we figured out if piano would really stick. He used it for 15 months. I'm glad that we didn't spend much on it though because it gave us more flexibility in buying our current one. I would have felt really bad if we had paid a significant sum for a upright only to upgrade a year later

Finally, we bought a 1960's Yamaha grand piano which we've had for over 2 years. We love the sound and dynamic range- but there is no way I would have spent that type of money we did until we were fairly confident that piano would stick for a long time. We also took our time buying it and we got an excellent deal on it.

Thank you for sharing your experience here. I always recommend that you buy the best piano you can reasonably afford. The Casio PX-160 is a fine instrument to begin on. Others to consider are the Kawai ES-110, Roland FP-30 and Yamaha P115. If I have a student on a keyboard, they usually lose interest after a couple of months because a keyboard is really a different instrument than a piano.

So if EP's daughter-in-law (?) wants to buy a 61-key keyboard, hopefully she'll be willing to upgrade in a couple of months. Seems like a waste of time and money to me, however.

Another option is to rent a piano. Often piano dealers will deliver a piano to your home and you pay a monthly fee. After 6 months, you can use your rent payments towards the purchase of a new instrument, or continue renting. Many dealers have arrangements like this, and can help with purchasing a nicer instrument once you have a good idea of the child will stick with lessons.

Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by pianoMom2006
I have a 10 year old that's been playing for almost 4 years. It took us 4 tries to get an instrument we were truly happy with. Here's our story....

We started with a 61 key unweighted keyboard for my son. We bought one used at a yard sale for 10 dollars (probably 150 dollars new). He used it for 4 months. It was our test to see if piano would stick at all.

We then upgraded to a Yamaha DGX-650 digital weighted keyboard which was 1k. It was really an awful instrument because it was sold as like a piano in terms of key weighting-which is really a marketing ploy. He used it for less than 4 months.. I truly regret the purchase.

Then we bought a 1960's studio upright for about 1k...I was really happy with the instrument because it gave my son the ability to practice on a real piano while we figured out if piano would really stick. He used it for 15 months. I'm glad that we didn't spend much on it though because it gave us more flexibility in buying our current one. I would have felt really bad if we had paid a significant sum for a upright only to upgrade a year later

Finally, we bought a 1960's Yamaha grand piano which we've had for over 2 years. We love the sound and dynamic range- but there is no way I would have spent that type of money we did until we were fairly confident that piano would stick for a long time. We also took our time buying it and we got an excellent deal on it.

Thank you for sharing your experience here. I always recommend that you buy the best piano you can reasonably afford. The Casio PX-160 is a fine instrument to begin on. Others to consider are the Kawai ES-110, Roland FP-30 and Yamaha P115. If I have a student on a keyboard, they usually lose interest after a couple of months because a keyboard is really a different instrument than a piano.

So if EP's daughter-in-law (?) wants to buy a 61-key keyboard, hopefully she'll be willing to upgrade in a couple of months. Seems like a waste of time and money to me, however.

Another option is to rent a piano. Often piano dealers will deliver a piano to your home and you pay a monthly fee. After 6 months, you can use your rent payments towards the purchase of a new instrument, or continue renting. Many dealers have arrangements like this, and can help with purchasing a nicer instrument once you have a good idea of the child will stick with lessons.


Getting an acoustic first would have been the right approach in retrospect...but in my case I had to convince my husband first that piano would stick. We had a massive piece of furniture that we had to get rid of before we could fit an acoustic in our house. Also spending $1k up front was a lot for an activity that might not stick was not something we wanted to do either. I'm sure that piano teachers see that kids that start with keyboards are less likely to stick generally (as there is less financial investment) and they aren't practical long term but that's just why we did what we did. Knowing what I know today, we would have bought a grand only.

Last edited by pianoMom2006; 05/31/17 09:38 AM.

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Re: 8-year old starting lessons
Charles Cohen #2648862 05/31/17 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by Saranoya
. . .

I think Whizbang is right. Getting him a 61-key unweighted keyboard is like assuming he will fail. There's lots of music you can technically play on it (for instance, Haydn and Mozart wrote all of their music at a time when the piano had a range of no more than 61 keys), but it feels very different than a weighted keyboard or an acoustic piano. More importantly, it lacks the defining characteristic of the piano: you can't vary the dynamics (loud / soft) through your touch on an unweighted keyboard. So that's a hurdle your grandson will bump into from the very beginning, if all he has is a 61-key unweighted keyboard. You don't have to believe he will last into adulthood in order to get him a 'real' piano. You only have to believe he will make it past the first two lessons or so.

Making real music on a piano is all about dynamics; otherwise, it sounds pretty much like a computer-generated MIDI file. Don't deny your grandson the pleasure of making real music!


I'm going to pick on a nit. The bold-face statement isn't true.

This post confuses two different things:

. . . "weighted" vs "unweighted";

. . . "touch-sensitive" keys vs "constant loudness" or "organ-style" keys.

You can find lots of _unweighted_ keyboards (the key works against a spring -- also called "synth action") that have _touch-sensitive_ keys that let you vary dynamics. It's a classic combination for synthesizers, and many of the Yamaha "PSR" series keyboards work like that. They're "organ-style" (on/off) for the lowest-price models, but "touch-sensitive" for the medium and high-price range.

So you _can_ play piano music, with dynamics, on an unweighted, touch-sensitive keyboard.

Having said that (and having played on unweighted, touch-sensitive keyboards), I think Morodiene and others are right:

. . . It's much nicer to play on weighted keys.

I also think that 61 keys is the absolute minimum that will let someone play two-handed music. If portability is important, a 61-key or 73-key instrument might make sense. But it's a compromise. With 88 keys, you can play _anything_.

Morodiene's list is an excellent starting point. If money is tight, check Craigslist for Yamaha P105 and Casio PX-150 pianos. They're "previous generation", but quite similar to the P115 and PX-160.



I stand corrected. I was under the mistaken impression that all unweighted keyboards are also insensitive to touch. When my boyfriend came to live with me, he brought one of those 61-key 'toy' keyboards that's both unweighted and touch-insensitive. He expected I would use it for early morning silent practice ...

I still stand by my statement (now echoed by Morodiene and pianoMom) that the best course of action is to get the best piano you can reasonably afford. I had to basically go on a steady diet of Ramen noodles until I'd payed off the baby grand I hadn't planned on getting. While I wouldn't willingly do that again, I have no regrets. I think everybody who can should do themselves and/or their children the favor of getting an instrument that feels and sounds good. It doesn't need to cost six months of living expenses, but it probably should cost more than an evening with the family at a fancy restaurant.

For what it's worth: before my current instrument, I had a Roland RD-150, which served its purpose fine at the time. It cost €1100 new, and went to its eager next owner for €600 when I got the acoustic. I now wish I'd never sold it, but I was also dismayed to discover, on a recent trip to a piano store, that four years of daily playing on a grand have ruined pretty much all digitals for me.


Plodding through piano music at a frustratingly slow pace since 9/2012.

Standard disclaimer: I teach many things. Piano is not one of them.
Re: 8-year old starting lessons
Saranoya #2648864 05/31/17 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Saranoya
I had to basically go on a steady diet of Ramen noodles until I'd payed off the baby grand I hadn't planned on getting. While I wouldn't willingly do that again, I have no regrets.

Are you using a hyperbole here? I would never ask my students' families to do that.

On the other hand, all the parents (who employed me to teach their kids) that refuse to upgrade the instrument can easily afford to do so. It's a matter of priorities. They obviously don't think piano is very important, since it's one of 73 activities they signed up their kids to do. I have also taught students on the other end of the spectrum, whose parents obviously spent too much money on their grand pianos--when the kid has absolutely no talent and no desire to learn.

We live in a weird world.


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Re: 8-year old starting lessons
pianoMom2006 #2648868 05/31/17 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoMom2006
Getting an acoustic first would have been the right approach in retrospect.

That's not necessarily true. In many cases, the acoustic piano (upright or grand) can be just as awful, if not worse, than an unweighted keyboard. sick


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Re: 8-year old starting lessons
EP #2648869 05/31/17 12:05 PM
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@ AZN: yes, I am exaggerating a bit, but not by much. My piano cost me *more* than six months of living expenses - nearly double that. I was single at the time, so in part, this is a reflection of just how low my living expenses were. But still. I'll freely admit, I think it's insane for someone like me to be spending that much money on a piano. I very much enjoy playing, but I don't get any income out of it, and I never will. If I'd had a partner and/or children when the piano came to me, I would have sent it right back where it came from. And if my grandpa hadn't, out of the blue, decided that I needed to have it (but that he wanted his money back), it's not unlikely that I would still be rocking my RD-150 today. At most, if left to my own devices, I'd have bought a tall Yamaha upright.

So to be clear: I don't expect anyone to do what I did, least of all a family with kids, where the eight-year-old beginner is the only musician (?). But I did do it. I have zero regrets about the expensive instrument that's currently taking up a good third of my living room, and I advise anyone who can afford it not to skimp on a good instrument.


Plodding through piano music at a frustratingly slow pace since 9/2012.

Standard disclaimer: I teach many things. Piano is not one of them.
Re: 8-year old starting lessons
AZNpiano #2649556 06/02/17 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano


I have also taught students on the other end of the spectrum, whose parents obviously spent too much money on their grand pianos--when the kid has absolutely no talent and no desire to learn.

We live in a weird world.



That's exactly why we thought buying used was the way to go. We wanted to buy our piano from someone who invested in a piano that was never used. In our case, the kid played piano for 1 year 30+ years ago. The family was moving and they needed to sell quickly. The piano looked brand new when we purchased it and our tech said it was one of the nicest G2's he'd ever seen.


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