Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Lost in method books. Need a little help getting on track.

Hi Timothy-NL. I enjoying our discussions regarding your choice of DP. Maybe I could give some constructive comments here.

Regarding your teacher laughing, it is inappropriate. It is never right to laugh at anyone's dreams. However, she is right. She is right that your odds are not in your favor. However, there is serious, and then there is serious.

People have hobbies. Hobbies are things that could come and go. People pick up biking, gardening, photography. When they have time, they do more, and when there isn't time, they do less or even abandon it all together. Piano is no different. According to my teacher, she has never had a single adult student go beyond grade 6 piano who started from zero as an adult. All her adult students who could play beyond grade 6 piano have played for years as children and are returning to piano. This is from more than 20 years of teaching.

Do you have ABRSM in the Netherlands? I find that if you're really serious, an external learning system like ABRSM or RCM is really helpful for adults to give you what has to be learned in order to become a musician. It also forces you to take exams which gives you feedback on where you are and where you have gaps. Taking exams also forces you to learn your performance pieces to a level you never would otherwise. It doesn't matter what anybody says. If you never went into an exam and faced an examiner and be judged and scored, you would never prepare as hard. Recitals are good, but not the same.

Grades 6,7,8 are considerably harder than grades 1,2,3 for adults who never played piano as a child. Having played a lot of piano while very young is the key. My children found grades 1,2,3 hardest, but they glided through grade 6,7,8. According to my teacher, all her adults who didn't play as a child quit piano around grade 5. Some teachers allow their adult students to play grade 8 music at grade 5 standard. Mine does not, so they quit. Being retired also helps as the retirees have more time to practice. As a working adult, practicing as much as my children would who are serious students, I find I progress at half their speed or slower after grade 5.

Intuitively, and with the little experience I have now, I'm afraid you are right. Does anybody have other experiences with this?
In the back of my head my ultimate goal would be to play some grade 8 pieces (at grade 8 standard, mind you), although I wouldn't find it beneath me to be an eternal grade 5 either. I see how things get exponentially more difficult (and take exponentially more time) and when I extrapolate, I don't see how I will be able to fit that in, in a few years time. We'll see, and in the meanwhile I'm enjoying the scenery...

Timothy, what you said you are going to do is the first you need to do: Get information from your Conservatory.

Maybe they talk to you about it themselves, but if they don't, what you need is a teacher who knows about the exams to enter the Conservatory, which means it is not only that you need to tell the teachers you interview about your plans, but you also need to make sure they are qualified for this, and ideally you'll find someone with experience in preparing students for these exams.

I don't know how it is at your place, but I can see those exams exist here in Spain. The difficulty of them will depend at times on how many candidates are trying to start at the Conservatory. If there are 2 vacant positions and 200 candidates, the exams will be difficult. If there is only 1 candidate, it won't be so much. Good luck.

To all: I don't know what "Conservatory" means in your countries, but here it is something like "Official School of Music". In general, it's children who start at it, but there are possibilities for adults too. If we can start at university, why couldn't we start at a conservatory?

There are different levels at the Conservatory and thus different entry levels, and possible achievements. Many here leave before the last stage, which often requires changing cities (for example, no higher level in my city).

I did study as a child and had a many-decade gap; but I still find each progressive level to be incrementally, not linearly, more difficult than the last.... and to take more time.

Improvement is not linear: I remain at one level for awhile, and then will eventually see an improvement I had not seen. As long as you understand it will be a journey, with detours, and climbs.. you will be ok. Don't except to see improvement every day. An individual measure can improve quickly but a progression to more difficult repertoire is, well, a slope to climb.

Reading this thread, I've thought of you again, Timothy = Thread

Just make sure you really want to prepare to enter the conservatory. Learning for exams and learning just for sake of learning can be very different.

The way it is in Spain, I think the conservatory is the best place to learn (and the cheapest!) so I'd recommend giving it a try (not for me though ).

Albunea, I was in fact thinking of the things you mentioned, which is why I used both "conservatory" and "college/university (music major)" in order to span the globe. I know among other things that in many places elsewhere conservatory is preceded by "arts Gymnasium" in lieu of general public education (gr. 1 - 12 or similar) with some idea of what that preparation entails. Because there is a preparation that constitutes a kind of prerequisite, that is why I wrote that it is good to tell a teacher of your plans rather than hiding them as was suggested.

a) What does such preparation entail,b) what might it but should not entail, and c) what about the question of entering the higher institution directly and immediately?

Addressing "c)" first - I have run across several people went as absolute beginners into a conservatory, I'm guessing in a section carved out for such people, under a professor used to teaching advanced students who had done the usual path. I saw a person trying to do species counterpoint before being able to recognize intervals (how do you avoid aug 2 if you're unsure about m2 M2?). Or the fine points of dynamic contrast and agogic accents before having mastered basic control of three notes in a row sounding even, such as beginners learn. Nor could these professors form these basic kinds of skills - they knew to build on such skills that were already there. Building foundations is not their specialization, nor their interest.

Addressing "b") "preparing for conservatory" can easily become learning the repertoire, scales etc. + etudes, along with aiming for the sound that will be expected. The very first foundations on which such good playing is built, can be short circuited in an attempt to get directly at the goal, and you get a patchwork kind of affair foundation-wise. You don't want the wrong kinds of shortcuts.

Going to "a") - we are again at "preparing for conservatory" and we (i.e. the teacher) again consider the repertoire etc. that will be wanted, including how they will want to hear it with which quality and underlying knowledge and skills. But this time we also look at the foundational skills and knowledge that need to be built in order to get there. I.e. a beginner is a beginner - but a beginner can be taught superficially in a shortcut way, or even the beginner things can be taught in depth. In our above example, before you insert an agogic accent, you'd better have good control of your hands as well as basic rhythm, time, pulse, as well as some understanding of music (theory, history etc.) so that you also know what to apply when, and why, along with the physical ability to do so, with expanded senses.

"a" brings us back to "walk before you run" that has been admonished, but with a few subtle differences.

So finally some time to respond here. Was busy with organizing a boxing gala which was yesterday. As it was a last minute adoption (previous organizer couldn't fund it) there was a lot to do in little time plus my own training and then practicing on my piano so kinda neglected the forums a bit.

@Albunea, Yes over here the conservatory is just like a music college with a fancy name. And tbh like you mention it's probably the cheapest place to really study as well. Considering what you get for the money you pay. And as an EER student it's only 2006 euro a year for both the BA and MA.

You can also just look up which requirements are needed to enter. Inc. what you need to play, which written tests, hearing tests etc. But they also have a sort of preparation class. Kind of like a bridge class which prepares you for the school. Which i'm considering taking before trying to enter. Of course once i've learned enough to enter it .

@8 octaves, Hey there. Nice to see you here as well. Let me respond to everything separately though so i don't loose track .

We don't have RCM here as far as i know. There is an ABRSM exam contact in the city next to mine. But don't know how i would go about that tbh. We also have something called EPTA but i know even less about that haha. I do like grading and exams. Not because of the paper but i just like the pressure that comes with it .

As for playing as a kid. I usually just disregard it as i don't think it was anything useful. But as a kid from 5 to 7 we had to pick an instrument in music class (once a week in the school i was in) and i did play piano then. Until 7 when we moved to another city and the new school's music class was nothing more than singing and beating on a triangle if you know what i mean.

Considering this statement "Some teachers allow their adult students to play grade 8 music at grade 5 standard. Mine does not" i'd actually like your teacher i think. I don't want to get special treatment or having things made easier for me. I want to improve and not just be giving simplified things to satiate my need to play something i'm not capable or ready for.

@muove this might also be a bit of an answer to your post. @8 octaves i did see you mention something about time. Well aside from my training in the gym 3x a week and condition training for about an hour at home 2x a week i have literally every other minute of the day to learn and practice piano. If that isn't enough time i don't know anymore haha. Though of course sometimes there is something like past week where i'm needed for a couple days in a row. But that pays the bills. Only need to do that once a month.

But you know how i take the most of your post. I don't take it as that it's impossible. I take it as it's very hard so i better strap in for the ride and give it my all and work my ass of to try and achieve what i want.

@dogperson i actually look at it the same way you describe it in your post. But i think the easiest way is to show it. For some reason i feel like most people here think that i think my "journey" is like the top of the image. Wile in actuality i know that my "journey" is like the bottom of this image.




@keystring, i actually thought about such patchwork form of foundations but i have time to do it the right way so i will. Considering that i am still fairly young in adulthood (this feeling might differ depending on location of course) and have all the time right now i'll take that time and do it properly or at least as well as i can. Patchwork foundations might work for a wile but in the end such a thing will bring limitations with it that you'll run into sooner or later.

And of course you know where i stand on the rest .


Well that's bit of a responds to everything i think. If i missed something i'm sorry. Like all the previous times i am open to suggestions, tips and tricks. And i do actually read every responds and consider everything that's being said to me.

Hi Timothy .....

I thought I would check in with you to see how that ... 3 months with the same instructor is going.

And .... perhaps your journey to the music academy.

Haven't heard much since your last post here.

I saw the picture of your home practice area and it seems first class .... It should serve you well in your endeavor.

I know someone who started from scratch at 38 and passed grade 8 in 5 years. I think commitment is necessary but not sufficient, you need a certain amount of talent to ever play at grade 8 standard as an adult. Maybe something like the top 10% of adults, in terms of "piano ability", would be able to do it.

My goal is to get to a grade 5 standard. I'm not assuming I'll be able to get further as this is only a hobby and not even my main hobby, so there's only a certain amount of time that I'd dedicate to it.

I am so happy my goal is too enjoy playing the piano. I couldn't care less if I am at grade 1 or 8. (Which probably means I won't ever reach grade 4 or so LOL) I sometimes wonder WHY people are so keen on reaching high levels or going to the conservatory.

You could say the same for pretty much any activity. Some people take it casually, others far more seriously. With piano I'm at the casual hobby end of the spectrum and will take it as far as I can without spoiling the fun. There are other hobbies I take more seriously (e.g. skiing) but I don't consider any of my hobbies as a career.

My goals are shifting. Right now I would like to be able to playTchaikovsky's Valse Sentimentale. I have no idea what 'grade' it would correspond to (hopefully 3 or 4 since it's so hard to reach higher grades) but I am working towards this long term goal of mine.
Tchaikovsky Valse Sentimentale piano video

My goals are more short term. I'm going for my grade 3 exam in August, then I want to do grade 4. Meantime I have my new Beethoven book to work on. My long term goal is probably to get to a level that I can play intermediate stuff fairly easily, which means I'd have to be advanced I guess. Grade 8 sounds daunting, but by the end of summer I'll be working on grade 4, so it's really not that far away if you plan on a grade a year.

The OP hasn't posted since February. Hopefully he comes back. I think everyone's goal here is to enjoy playing piano. I did start with a method book, but transitioned to playing repertoire pieces from the Alfred's Masterwork Classics series. That then lead to following the RCM syllabus, the technical studies, ear training and sight reading ... with the help of a teacher of course. Similar to Sara, I plan to take the level 3 exam this Sunday and will then start level 4. Will I take that exam? Probably, but I really don't have to. The teacher said it's up to me and whether or not I want to do exams. I might change my mind after Sunday But I do like the RCM approach.

Where will I be in 2 years? I really don't know. I'd like to play Master Of Puppets like VK. If you had ask me 2 years ago if I would be here now, I would have said - huh, a piano? That thought crossed my mind again in October of 2015 when I was in Japan and heard someone playing piano. Before that I was riding my bike all over creation. Now, I do a lot less of that. It's obvious I can't do both. I'm going to have to change my username from bSharpCyclist to bFlatLazyPianoPotato

hahaha!! OMG my fitness has majorly suffered since picking up the piano. My evenings are a constant struggle between Beethoven and Body Attack. There are not enough hours in the day. I wish I was one of those freaks that doesn't need sleep. Unfortunately I ended up on the end of the spectrum that is cranky if I don't get 9 hours.

Hey Don.

I appreciate the check in. Tbh i stayed away from the forums on purpose a bit. I came here with good hope and intentions and to me it was a bit to toxic. Not in a confronting way. And not all mind you. It didn't get me down either. But it was enough that i just didn't want to put any time into here anymore. Just curiosity got me back here anyway.

How it's been going. Well. Slow. But i never intended to "race" (some might've thought otherwise probably) trough it anyway so that's ok. Focused mainly on posture and especially being relaxed wile playing. I really had the habit of tensing up but that's mostly gone now. Also had some big changes in my life in the past few months which both created more time but also had some mental "side effects" as i HATE giving up (more down in my response to bSharp)

As for the teacher. Well she's made and making me wait lmao. But that's cool with me. Good things usually make you wait. Not long anymore though. Just have to wait until the new school year starts witch is in august over here. Until then i'm working from Alfred's where i'm about 2/3th now (i spend a lot of extra time on each piece and often go back to older practices. Basics are important imo). And using Czerny Op.599 for extra reading and finger practice atm.

Thanks for the compliment btw. Though despite how nice it looks it's a job to keep it like that. I forgot how much of a dust collector these things are


@ J van E
Enjoyment is something personal though. You enjoy how you play and i enjoy what i do. My enjoyment of course also comes from just being able to play. But i really enjoy learning and pushing myself and seeing how far i could reach. And i'll be honest. In the past that has lead me to the icarus paradox a few times. But hey. We won't know what happens until we try it


@PerAspera
I honestly couldn't tell you which grade it is. But i do hope that you'll make that goal. It's a beautiful piece.


@bSharp(C)yclist and sara elizabeth
It sucks that it's such a struggle to practice or to train right. Though after a lot of conversations and many nights of sleep i had to decide to stop being a competition fighter. I'm still training (though less now) and i'm still boxing but purely as a hobby when i have time for it. Instead i'm not helping a new generation of little boxers and i co-organise events at our gym (one of the few with a real olympic size ring in it that's always there (it's a rare thing here)). It was heartbreaking to do but all the competition training was murder on my hands when combined with piano practice.

Good thing though i'm one of those "freaks" that don't need a lot of sleep On average i get 5 max 6 hours a night with rare days where i sleep in and get about 8 hours.


Edit: changed settings that i get an email if there happen to be responses here. Was turned off which i didn't know or i'd have responded earlier

Forums like this can be a great source of useful information, if you're aware of the two main agendas that you sometimes have to filter out to reduce bias:

1) You absolutely need a teacher to learn to play "properly".
2) Spend as much as you can afford on equipment.

There are obviously people from the teaching community here, and probably also some from the music instruments sales industry, so some bias is inevitable. Others simply propagate the mantras from hearsay. Just be aware of it and CHALLENGE that kind of statements, focusing on the quality of the arguments supporting them, rather than on any perceived or self-awarded "status" from the poster.

So, you've discredited teachers' opinions because they are obviously biased. Few teachers participate in ABF, but one of the most respected regular ones hasn't appeared in this thread at all, not at all surprisingly.

And then others are biased because they have teachers and enjoy working with them, and find their learning process greatly enhanced. But there was one very biased poster who is no longer here, who enjoyed teaching himself very much......

What about the credentials of the posters themselves (regardless of whether or not they have teachers)? Don't that count towards the validity of their advice? BTW, it's easy to find out who has a lot of experience and knowledge and who doesn't, without relying on what they actually claim - just read their previous posts on various threads, and see how much they actually know.

Incidentally, that was also part of the reasoning behind whether I decided I needed to have a teacher for the various activities I learnt over the years - everything from running ultra-marathons to sky-diving to playing the guitar. First, how far I want to go with it, how accomplished I want to get. Secondly, how technical and difficult to master that activity is. Thirdly, I obtained advice from people who are good at it, and canvass their opinions on whether I should get a teacher (and indeed, how much I needed to spend on equipment).

I'd never ask opinions from people who know next to nothing about the activity I was interested in learning - that would be like asking the blind to lead the blind.

I don't credit or discredit "people" here, that's the main point, I don't even know who they are, all I have is the specific arguments that they can articulate to make a point. If all they have to back a statement is some kind of self-perceived status or "credentials", it doesn't get my attention. If they do have relevant knowledge and experience, then it should be easy for them to convey their opinion in a logical series of premises and a conclusion. If they struggle to do this, then it may be a case of bias or because they don't really "know" as much as they like to think, regardless of how well they might play the instrument.