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Joined: Aug 2012
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Before you say "call a technician"... I did. He won't do it. There aren't any serious ones on this island, a couple of tuners, but no experts. This piano is over 100 years old, too. A mouse got into the piano. Did some damage. Have a few stuck keys. I would like to remove them and see what's wrong. Thing is: they won't come off. I tried lifting the action, but the keys are screwed to it one by one, so I would have to lift all the keys along with it. Nearly impossible. [img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Z...0QJk0bGmHuwqR0eXcMEidw8CcFwLHA=w330-h220[/img] I managed to lift one out, but to do so I have to undo screws in places that are... dodgy, to say the least. And this one was at the beginning of the keyboard, I could access it by the side too. Because to remove it, I had to remove the two screws that you can see in the picture partly unscrewed. I would really try to avoid having to do that on any more keys. [img] https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/...3272894253802690?authkey=CK31_Ybz9rzpuwE[/img] Does anyone know of any neat trick to remove a key from the middle of the action?
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Joined: May 2012
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I'm guessing all that's happened is that the mice have pooped in the action - the "offerings" are just the right size to get trapped between the keys and cause all sorts of problems. I've seen this before You may find that running a thin piece of metal between the keys that aren't working properly may be enough to dislodge the mouse offerings, and you won't need to remove the top action - I'd try this first. Taking individual keys out is awkward, but not as difficult as you think! It's known as a tied action. There's a little round headed screw on the front of wooden connector between the key and the action mechanism. Loosen that a few turns, and the connector should pop out (you may need to put in a bit of effort) by pressing down on the key and up on the lever (whippen) at the same time. Lift the hammer up before you do this though, as when the connector releases, you'll send the hammer up so quickly that you're likely to damage the flange centre (the hinge). With the connector un-clipped, unscrew the lever from the rail, then you can bend the check backwards, lift the key off the balance pin, and it should be able to pull the individual key out from the front of the action. If you'd prefer not to bend the check wire back, you'll need to un-clip all the connectors and lift the whole top action off the keyboard. Replacing the top action is a bit fiddly - you'll need to use a little hook (easy enough to make) to guide the connector back into the key, then press down on a solid part of the lever to seat the connector on the key, then do the screw back up. Hope you have some luck!
Last edited by Adypiano; 05/23/17 07:05 AM.
Started work at the Blüthner piano re-building workshop in Perivale, UK, in 1989. Self employed since 2000. Learning something new about pianos every day... #hamiltonpianos http://www.hamiltonpianos.com/
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Thank you for the help Referring to this image: [img] https://ibb.co/bNvyxa[/img] (why don't image tags work?) The little screw you mean is the one with the red arrow, right? Well, there's no way I can undo those without putting a finger (or something) behind them, they look (and feel) way too fragile. Anyway, I undid one on the fourth key - the first three have glue on them - where I can still get a finger behind it, and nothing comes apart. I looked and probed for dirt and droppings between the keys. There aren't any. I can also see the keys quite well from underneath. The problem seems to be: the hammer gets stuck against the back check felt (green arrow). It's three keys in a row, A#5, B5, C6. If I pull the whole action towards the front, they come unstuck. Same happens if I bend the back check back. Which is funny, because they look exactly the same as all the others... But. Even without the check in the way, those keys don't push the hammer up with even half the strength as the "good" ones do. They're "feebler". So... hmm. I can maybe try to remove the keys by painstakingly unscrewing the two bottom ones (like in the picture) - though I'd rather avoid doing that? Anything I can try? Thanks again
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I'm on Mac, and still haven't managed to upload a picture to the forum. Any fellow Mac users out there who can help - would be much appreciated!!!
In the mean time, could you PM me an email address, and I'll annotate your picture to show you how to take the action apart.
What make is the piano by the way? It looks a lot like a Bechstein design - the dreaded Prolonge action. In the past, I've removed the carriages from the keys, filled in the screw holes and fitted capstans, and removed the Prolonge assembly from the lever and made hills to replace them. Time well spent as it makes the action quieter, and SO much easier to regulate!
Started work at the Blüthner piano re-building workshop in Perivale, UK, in 1989. Self employed since 2000. Learning something new about pianos every day... #hamiltonpianos http://www.hamiltonpianos.com/
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Loosen the screw with the red arrow enough to let the center pin go through the slot in the bottom of the sticker. Then hold the wippen up about 3/16" and push the key down at the back. The sticker will come out of the rocker arm.
I have found that these rocker capstans stay regulated longer than screw capstans, since there is not as much felt on them. They do take a bit of time to take apart, however.
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...still haven't managed to upload a picture to the forum. Well, you could put them somewhere else, and link to them. I used to use Google+ for that, but now it's gone totally gaagle, I use imgbb which is fast and easy. I've PMd you the address, thank you. What make is the piano by the way? It's this little beauty here. Günter & Söhne, circa 1890.
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Loosen the screw with the red arrow enough to let the center pin go through the slot in the bottom of the sticker. That doesn't seem to work. Even taking the screw out. Also, as I've said, I can't loosen the screws on the keys that are not working because I can't hold the bits from the back. They will break if I push only on one side. On a lighter note, that little mouse liked it comfortable. This I found on the bass keys: [img] https://ibb.co/gBK0ca[/img] Which it gnawed from a scarf I used to cover the strings: [img] https://ibb.co/iTCxOF[/img]
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Do not loosen the screws in the rocker! Just the screws with the red arrow.
You may need to push the sticker forward or back to loosen the grip on the center pin.
Last edited by BDB; 05/23/17 06:41 PM.
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The sticker may still be clipped on tightly even with the screw loosened. It may need some gentle force to unclip. Or maybe pry it up.
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Thank you all. Not trusting myself not to do any damage, I removed the 6th bass key (D), as it was the first one that did not have glue on it and I could still put my finger behind it to hold the back of the thing or I am absolutely sure that the wood would break. It's over 100 years old, and you need to push the screwdriver quite a bit to turn the screw. To do that, I unscrewed the rocker because... well, I wanted to see, and I couldn't try with the one I had already off because... it was full of glue To do that, I made me a little tool with a bent spoon (the Uri Geller tool) to get to the screws: [img] https://ibb.co/fP8h7a[/img] Once I got it out, I was not working blind anymore, and I saw how it's supposed to work: [img] https://ibb.co/faC3DF[/img] (this thing with the image tags not working is a bit annoying, isn't it). So, now that I had a decent idea of what I was dealing with, I had to solve the problem of how to hold the clip from behind to loosen the screw. And it occurred to me I could use the Uri Geller tool... and it works. Once I had the little screw loose, and knowing what I was up against, it was easy to lever the screw (and attached clip) up with a big screwdriver and a bit of wood on the key. So I can now take a key off. I'll give it a rest - the tension from the fear of breaking something has rather drained me, then I'll look into it a bit more. Thank you again for the precious advice.
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It is a bit tricky to embed those images, but it is possible. Use the BBCode on the web page, and remove everything except the image tag information, that is, starting with "[img" and ending with "/img]". So these are the images from your last post.
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Oh, I see, like the old Chinese sage said, "if it were easy, it wouldn't be difficult"... Let's see. The Uri Geller tool, in both modes: Seems to work. Thanks
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Well, so I removed three keys. There seemed to be absolutely nothing wrong with them. So I put on my Sherlock cap and investigated the remaining one. And I found it. See the little wire in the picture? It shouldn't stop there, it should go all the way to the end and push that swivel thingy back. On all the offending keys it's either bent or broken. That wasn't a mouse, it was a ninja saboteur. Now, let's try and get that off the assembly and I'll be back
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Wippen springs do wear out and need to be replaced.
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So, this is what the bent one looks like. Now... bit of a problem, isn't it? Can I find them? Can I make them? What are they made of? Can I... do something about it?
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Those springs are available from suppliers.
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Indeed. These look about right, don't they?
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Yes - they do look about right! Well done for tracking down the fault!
Started work at the Blüthner piano re-building workshop in Perivale, UK, in 1989. Self employed since 2000. Learning something new about pianos every day... #hamiltonpianos http://www.hamiltonpianos.com/
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Replace them all.
Things to be aware of:
1. They may come in different gauges within a set. Thinner ones on the high notes, thicker on the low notes. 2. They will need to be adjusted as you install them. This is done by pushing down on the upper part of the spring. Try not to overdo it: it is better to reduce the amount of spring than increase it (by lifting the spring up). 3. It is difficult to adjust the springs when all the wippens are in the action. You may find it easier to start at one end, install the wippen and adjust the spring before going to the next note.
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By the way, replacing a set of springs is a great way to learn how to replace center pin bushings!
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