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Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? #2644274
05/17/17 06:39 AM
05/17/17 06:39 AM
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Beemer Offline OP
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Invariably I find that it is the choir string with the longest NSL that I have to tweak to re-tune the choir. This goes against my thinking that surely it is the longest NSL that will have the less risk of falling outside the "tension band" (as Mark calls it) as it allows the tuner to lift the NSL tension to close to it's optimum (near upper limit) setting?

With second and third string tuned aurally to the first I like to leave the choir without beating but might it be better to leave the choir with the longest NSL with a hint of (upward direction) beating so that it will fall to no beat over time?

Ian

Last edited by Beemer; 05/17/17 06:40 AM.

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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2644290
05/17/17 08:03 AM
05/17/17 08:03 AM
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Could it be more overall string length to expand/contract with temperature - thereby more force to knock it out of its "tension band"?

Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2644315
05/17/17 09:48 AM
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Personally I don't like to 2nd guess the pitch.

I'm assuming you are slow pulling up to pitch.

If the NSL is really long, and your hammer is at 9:00 (grand), the long nsl means hardly any tension change from the top of the band, and the unbending will add a little tension. This may cause the NSL to remain high and maybe even rise. Confirm this by measuring before and after blows.

If so, try these things:

- change angle to 3:00 (grand)
- after pulling up to pitch, move the foot a tiny amount in the counter clockwise direction.

Confirm this technique works with tests blows.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2644366
05/17/17 11:58 AM
05/17/17 11:58 AM
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Interesting! Are they going sharp or flat?

Anyway, if it's that consistent--always the same one of three--then a minor change in your technique ought to remedy the problem.


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2644688
05/18/17 10:24 AM
05/18/17 10:24 AM
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I have heard some technicians describe this phenomena, but I have not experienced it in pianos I maintain. This leads me to think it is a sympton of operator error. My assumption is tuner is less skilled at settling the tuning pins that are farthest from the V-bar.


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645083
05/19/17 09:11 AM
05/19/17 09:11 AM
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In my practice I have observed that the right string of the unison is more likely to need a readjustment sooner for whatever reason. It is not universal but I would be inclined to put about 70% on it. Of course the pin pattern is reversed from grand to upright, yet in my observation it seems to make no difference...mostly just the right string. Maybe it's me?

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 05/19/17 09:11 AM.

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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: P W Grey] #2645204
05/19/17 04:25 PM
05/19/17 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
In my practice I have observed that the right string of the unison is more likely to need a readjustment sooner for whatever reason. It is not universal but I would be inclined to put about 70% on it. Of course the pin pattern is reversed from grand to upright, yet in my observation it seems to make no difference...mostly just the right string. Maybe it's me?

Pwg


Could that have something to do with tuning the right string to centre verses right string to combined centre and left?


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645210
05/19/17 05:07 PM
05/19/17 05:07 PM
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Couldn't be that specifically, because I tune the right string to center and left combined (treble tuning). Just seems that as I go along and find something has moved below (due to my test intervals) when I go back to fix it I estimate that about 70% if the time it is the right string primarily.

Interestingly, it also is observed that when there is falsness in a unison the right string tends to be the LEAST false of all. This is very consistent and has been commented on by many others over the years. Why? I don't rightly know, but I have certainly observed the fact.

I see no correlation between these phenomena, just an observation.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 05/19/17 05:08 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Retsacnal] #2645358
05/20/17 07:11 AM
05/20/17 07:11 AM
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Beemer Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Interesting! Are they going sharp or flat?

Anyway, if it's that consistent--always the same one of three--then a minor change in your technique ought to remedy the problem.


They are going flat. I always final tune the string from below until I hear the smallest beating of the highest partial I can hear then gently ease back until I hear no beat. This longest NSL of the choir is the last I tune and usually (but not always) is the one that lowers and needs tweaking. All choir strings are on their own hitch pins.

Because I am listening for beating at the high tension end then relaxing hammer and if necessary a tiny a.c.w. backward pressure (it's an upright). I cannot understand why the nsl falls below the tension band but the middle and R.H. do not. I admit to using a mix of slow pull and gentle impact technique as not all pins react the same. All strings have agraffes.

The only thing I note is that in the middle of the piano the longest nsl pins are very near the edge of the pin-block (I can only judge this from looking at the distance to the iron frame edge). Perhaps the grip is not as tight in that area. I don't have a piano torque wrench to measure it.

Ian


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645457
05/20/17 03:06 PM
05/20/17 03:06 PM
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The low tenor has the longest strings, and the lowest tension in the piano.

Higher tension strings tend to be more stable - I think it's a matter of the % of the tension change in relation to the pitch, so that a small tension change causes a more audible pitch change.

Closely related to this is that the longer, heavier wire is more susceptible to temperature influence. If the wire warms up 5 degrees, the long length creates a larger change in tension (and therefore pitch) than a string that is much shorter.

I feel it is the combination of these two factors that makes the tenor move the most. I suspect how the string reacts to bridge cap swelling and shrinking with humidity is also part of the equation.

For the left string changing differently than the right in a 3 string unison, this is related to bridge movement with humidity. The notches are not parallel to the bridge itself, so as the bridge swells and rolls a little as the soundboard moves, the 3 strings don't all change the same.


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: KawaiDon] #2645464
05/20/17 04:21 PM
05/20/17 04:21 PM
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Don, you didn't answer the question? Have you noticed a difference between left and right unison strings on how they de-tune "naturally"?


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645477
05/20/17 05:39 PM
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In theory, if the NSL is long compared to the speaking length and there is high friction across the upper termination point then I guess that the string will have a greater chance of not rendering well until struck hard. However, given a good hammer technique, this should not be an issue.


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645562
05/21/17 12:42 AM
05/21/17 12:42 AM
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Ok, here's the thing.

If you raise pitch, until you hear a slight beat sharp, and then nudge the pin back, which is the standard technique taught to all beginning tuning students, four things are happening.

1) Your final approach to the target pitch is from above, i.e. You are loosening the string to get to pitch.

2) That puts the NSL tension at the bottom of the tension band

3) Because of Hooke's Law, a long nsl will not rise in tension much when the pin untwists, or even unbends, assuming your hammer is left of 12:00 (upright).

4) It will go flat.

The standard "make pitch slightly sharp and nudge it down" only works on medium and short nsl.

Just slow pull up to pitch, not past pitch, and leave it.

Last edited by Mark Cerisano; 05/21/17 12:43 AM.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645571
05/21/17 01:08 AM
05/21/17 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Beemer
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Interesting! Are they going sharp or flat?

Anyway, if it's that consistent--always the same one of three--then a minor change in your technique ought to remedy the problem.


They are going flat. I always final tune the string from below until I hear the smallest beating of the highest partial I can hear then gently ease back until I hear no beat.


I do almost the same than you with a little difference: instead of "gently ease back until I hear no beat" I pull (I am lefthanded) on the tuning hammer until the pin feels firmly locked into the pinblock and the pitch doesn't change any more, no matter if this leaves a beat in the unison in which case I must correct the tuning pin foot position be it sharper or flatter. I retune until I get a clean unison after pulling back on the tuning hammer. I am not an adept of the Cerisano's procedure, IMO a positive pull (push for righthanded) back is mandatory to firmly set the tuning pin in a stable position.

And for your question about the NSL here is what I think:

The longer the NSL the more unstable you can leave the string by using a bad tuning technique. The shorter the NSL the less the string can render across the bearing points. At the limit, if there was no NSL at all, the string could not render and would be forcefully stable.


Last edited by Gadzar; 05/21/17 01:12 AM.

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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645574
05/21/17 01:28 AM
05/21/17 01:28 AM
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In tuning stability there are two different aspects:

Tuning pin setting and string rendering.

If the tuning pin is not correctly settled then no matter what you do with the NSL tension the tuning will be unstable.

If the tuning pin is correctly settled the tuning may be unstable if you leave a too high or too low NSL tension.

A stable tuning requires both of them, the tuning pin and the string (NSL) to be correctly settled.

Last edited by Gadzar; 05/21/17 01:29 AM.

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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645646
05/21/17 07:45 AM
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With long nsl you can leave the pin unsettled, which is what happens in slow pull sharp. The pin is left slightly twisted clockwise and the settled position of the tuning pin is slightly twisted counter clockwise because that's what the pin wants to do under the tension of the string.

Slow pull sharp with long nsl works because when the pin does settle (untwists counter clockwise) as it will eventually do under the tension of the string, the NSL tension will drop but by such a small amount that it is still stable because the NSL tension is already high to begin with after a slow pull up to pitch. The change in NSL tension is so small because of Hooke's Law.

I am happy to hear Gadzar describe the pulling on the hammer technique. Many techs incorrectly call this flagpoling and say it is wrong and will damage the pinbock. Flagpoling is a lazy uncontrolled back and forth waggling of the pin. What Gadzar is describing is a controlled single gentle application of force on the pin in one direction in order to drop the pitch into place. The unbending of the pin after this force is removed is what puts tension back into the NSL. It does take experience to know how much force to apply.

I reread Gadzar's description and it appears he does not mean pull as in toward the tuner, but more pull to the left, (he is left handed). This may leave the pin twisted counter clockwise (torsionally settled) but may still leave the pin high in the hole if one was to effect that "pull" with the hammer at an angle to the right of 12:00 (upright)

But like I said, this technique does not work on long nsl because the untwisting and unbending (present if the hammer is left of 12:00 using the upright example) that occurs after the hammer force is removed is not enough to raise the tension away from the dangerously low amount it is at during this "pulling".

These descriptions are not my opinion. They are fact. This is what is actually happening with the forces, friction, and deformation (which I call The Three F's) of the system.

Last edited by Mark Cerisano; 05/21/17 08:06 AM.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645721
05/21/17 01:40 PM
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Mark,

I will give your advice a try. I'm also left handed so I will try the slow push with the longer nsl without the deliberate gentle pull.

Ian


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645731
05/21/17 02:02 PM
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Keep in mind that what you are hearing may be unrelated to the non-speaking length.


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: BDB] #2645746
05/21/17 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
Keep in mind that what you are hearing may be unrelated to the non-speaking length.

In what way might it be unrelated?

Ian


I'm all keyed up
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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645783
05/21/17 04:34 PM
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It could be the order in which the strings are tuned, for instance.


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2645794
05/21/17 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
I am happy to hear Gadzar describe the pulling on the hammer technique. Many techs incorrectly call this flagpoling and say it is wrong and will damage the pinbock. Flagpoling is a lazy uncontrolled back and forth waggling of the pin. What Gadzar is describing is a controlled single gentle application of force on the pin in one direction in order to drop the pitch into place. The unbending of the pin after this force is removed is what puts tension back into the NSL. It does take experience to know how much force to apply.


Absolutely not. This is not what I was talking about.



Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
I reread Gadzar's description and it appears he does not mean pull as in toward the tuner, but more pull to the left, (he is left handed).


That's right. But not only to the left. In fact I move, push, pull, tap, nudge, whack, etc. to the left, up, down, etc., as needed to achieve stability. I seldom push/pull in the "flagpoling" directions, though sometimes it may be needed.


Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
This may leave the pin twisted counter clockwise (torsionally settled) but may still leave the pin high in the hole if one was to effect that "pull" with the hammer at an angle to the right of 12:00 (upright).



Wrong. My hammer technique leaves the pin firmly locked in its hole in the pinblock: both torsionaly and axially (correctly unflexed and well placed in the hole).



Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
These descriptions are not my opinion. They are fact. This is what is actually happening with the forces, friction, and deformation (which I call The Three F's) of the system.


False. Untwisting, unflexing, etc are facts, yes. But nothing garantees you that when releasing the tuning hammer the pin will be untwisted/unflexed to a stalble position by means of the pull of the string alone. And nothing garantees neither the NSL tension will be adequate. The pull of the string maybe too much or not enough depending on many factors: the tightness of the tuning pin in the pinblock, the springiness of the tuning pin (untwisting/unflexing), the orientation of the tuning hammer lever, the technique you use to move the pin (slow pull, nudging, tapping, etc,), the amount of friction in the bearing points, etc. Most probably the pull of the string won't be adecuate to settle the tuning pin and stabilize the tensions in the differentt segments of the string.

Only an intentionally applied pull of the tuning hammer (counterclockwise and radially, etc.) can stabilize both the pin and the string. An it takes a lot of practice and experience to judge how much force must be applied and how to do it depending on all the factors listed above. There is no short cut.







Last edited by Gadzar; 05/22/17 12:08 AM.

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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645828
05/21/17 08:12 PM
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Yes, practice makes almost perfect.

Pwg


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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645831
05/21/17 08:16 PM
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Interesting conversation. Beemer, even if your strings are perfectly rendered, and the pins beautifully set, one would still only know the true condition of the tuning, at a reasonably later point in time, by giving each note a hard and rapid double blow. That would rerender the strings and show the true situation. Then look at what pattern emerges. If the detuning of the unisons is pretty random in terms of whether strings on either side of center are sharp or flat, then tuning technique is suspect after all. If the right hand strings of unisons are generally sharp of the center string, and the left hand string is flat, then either the temperature or humidity probably went up and your technique is pretty good. (Or you had perhaps lowered the piano's pitch.) The reverse pitch relation between strings of a unison indicates lower temperature or humidity, or possibly that you had raised the piano's pitch.

About flagpoling the pin: I don't believe anyone really knows whether the distortion we call "flagpoling " really happens in the tuning pin or in the block. In any event, a short tip on your tuning hammer with an angled head to get the handle high enough will reduce flagpoling. When rattling the tuning hammer through its play on the pin, the handle should remain in a plane. If it rises at either end of the play, get a better tip. Normal tuning handle position (on a grand ) is parallel to the string, pointing away from you. (I didn't invent this.) This puts what flagpoling there is at right angles to the string and minimizes it's effect. This would be the position for normal or low rendering friction. At higher rendering frictions the hammer should be placed closer to the 3:00 position, so as to use flagpoling to compensate for string drag by causing more relaxation of NSL tension..

Why the outer strings predictably oscillate in pitch around the center string can be surmised, but I don't know if anyone has gotten to the bottom of it. I would point out that there are pretty random length NSLs due to hitch pin placement behind the bridge, yet the pitch change patterns observed in unison choirs are still quite predictable

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Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Gadzar] #2645883
05/22/17 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
I am happy to hear Gadzar describe the pulling on the hammer technique. Many techs incorrectly call this flagpoling and say it is wrong and will damage the pinbock. Flagpoling is a lazy uncontrolled back and forth waggling of the pin. What Gadzar is describing is a controlled single gentle application of force on the pin in one direction in order to drop the pitch into place. The unbending of the pin after this force is removed is what puts tension back into the NSL. It does take experience to know how much force to apply.


Absolutely not. This is not what I was talking about.



Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
I reread Gadzar's description and it appears he does not mean pull as in toward the tuner, but more pull to the left, (he is left handed).


That's right. But not only to the left. In fact I move, push, pull, tap, nudge, whack, etc. to the left, up, down, etc., as needed to achieve stability. I seldom push/pull in the "flagpoling" directions, though sometimes it may be needed.


Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
This may leave the pin twisted counter clockwise (torsionally settled) but may still leave the pin high in the hole if one was to effect that "pull" with the hammer at an angle to the right of 12:00 (upright).



Wrong. My hammer technique leaves the pin firmly locked in its hole in the pinblock: both torsionaly and axially (correctly unflexed and well placed in the hole).



Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
These descriptions are not my opinion. They are fact. This is what is actually happening with the forces, friction, and deformation (which I call The Three F's) of the system.


False. Untwisting, unflexing, etc are facts, yes. But nothing garantees you that when releasing the tuning hammer the pin will be untwisted/unflexed to a stalble position by means of the pull of the string alone. And nothing garantees neither the NSL tension will be adequate. The pull of the string maybe too much or not enough depending on many factors: the tightness of the tuning pin in the pinblock, the springiness of the tuning pin (untwisting/unflexing), the orientation of the tuning hammer lever, the technique you use to move the pin (slow pull, nudging, tapping, etc,), the amount of friction in the bearing points, etc. Most probably the pull of the string won't be adecuate to settle the tuning pin and stabilize the tensions in the differentt segments of the string.

Only an intentionally applied pull of the tuning hammer (counterclockwise and radially, etc.) can stabilize both the pin and the string. An it takes a lot of practice and experience to judge how much force must be applied and how to do it depending on all the factors listed above. There is no short cut.








Flattening at 2:00 raises the pin in the hole.

Slow pull sharp on long nsl leaves nsl tension high. Facts. High enough? Too high? Depends.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2645887
05/22/17 12:30 AM
05/22/17 12:30 AM
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Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Flattening at 2:00 raises the pin in the hole.

Slow pull sharp on long nsl leaves nsl tension high. Facts. High enough? Too high? Depends.


Depends?

That's the key point. You can not be sure if the pull of the string will be enough (or too much) to guarantee a stable tuning.

Add to this that things change from pin to pin! You should verify the tuning is stable on every pin, you can not rely on the pull of the string alone.




Last edited by Gadzar; 05/22/17 12:35 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2645888
05/22/17 12:31 AM
05/22/17 12:31 AM
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Orange County, CA
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Don, you didn't answer the question? Have you noticed a difference between left and right unison strings on how they de-tune "naturally"?

I did badly misread the original question, I somehow thought it was referring to the low tenor notes.

But I did also mention the reason for the difference between the 3 strings of a unison:
"For the left string changing differently than the right in a 3 string unison, this is related to bridge movement with humidity. The notches are not parallel to the bridge itself, so as the bridge swells and rolls a little as the soundboard moves, the 3 strings don't all change the same."

Very often the right-most string goes out of tune first, and while some of this may have to do with the length of the back scale, the fact that the bridge and strings are not perpendicular to each other is at the heart of it.

One notices that this happens the most in the middle of the piano, less so in the high treble. The unisons are nearly perpendicular to the bridge length in the treble, but at a very oblique angle in the tenor. Hence the bridge growth, plus the slight roll from soundboard movement, affects the 3 strings differently.


Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America
Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Gadzar] #2645936
05/22/17 07:42 AM
05/22/17 07:42 AM
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
Flattening at 2:00 raises the pin in the hole.

Slow pull sharp on long nsl leaves nsl tension high. Facts. High enough? Too high? Depends.


Depends?

That's the key point. You can not be sure if the pull of the string will be enough (or too much) to guarantee a stable tuning.

Add to this that things change from pin to pin! You should verify the tuning is stable on every pin, you can not rely on the pull of the string alone.


As with everything, experience.
A simple pull to lower NSL tension can produce the same result as a test blow.

Test blows narrow and raise the tension band.
If the NSL tension is near the bottom of the tension band, the NSL tension will end up outside and below the tension band and the string will slip.
If the NSL tension is slightly high of centre, test blows will result in the tension band narrowing and raising, but the NSL tension will remain within the tension band and the string will not slip.

A gentle pull on the pin toward the tuner (upright) will lower nsl tension slightly.
If the NSL tension is near the bottom of the tension band, the NSL tension will go outside the tension band and the string will slip.
If the NSL tension is slightly high of centre, there is room for the NSL tension to lower but not go outside the band and the string will not slip.

Both these techniques confirm stability.

Wiggling, etc, is not needed because the string usually goes flat when unstable, especially on long nsl. A simple, gentle, and appropriate pull to lower NSL tension is all that is needed.

The technique is an acceptable substitute for test blows which damage hearing, joints, and the piano.

The appropriate amount of pull is that which produces bending forces that are less than normal bending forces created perpendicular to the hammer shank when force is applied in the plane of the plate.

(Sorry. Just realized you were meaning pull as in slow pull. Slow pull is even more controlled than lowering NSL tension so I will have to disagree with you and say, on many long NSL, slow pull up to pitch is all that is needed, especially when using the proper hammer angle. I'll leave the description of the Bend Test, as I call it, above, because of its value to understanding stability.)

Last edited by Mark Cerisano; 05/22/17 07:53 AM.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2645989
05/22/17 10:47 AM
05/22/17 10:47 AM
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Mexico City
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Mexico City
One of the very first things I was taught in my tuning course was to set the tuning pins. My teachers, all of them, were telling me that slow pulling up to pitch will leave the tuning pin in an unstable state. I am talking about Randy Potter, Jim Coleman and George Defebaugh,...

You seem to not know the terminology used by piano tuners.

Where did you learn to tune? Who were your teachers?


Reading what you say, the way you speak, the terminology you use, one has the impression that you are trying to discover and solve , unsuccessfully, what was already discovered and solved by others with succes. But every one is free to do things the way he wants.

Beemer has said he will follow your advice and he's going to simply slow pull up to pitch, I hope he will report here his results....

Last edited by Gadzar; 05/22/17 10:51 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2646103
05/22/17 05:19 PM
05/22/17 05:19 PM
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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I wish the terms "push" and "pull" were not used so freely in reference to pin setting. I find their use ambiguous and sure to cause confusion.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Why is the longest NSL the first to detune? [Re: Beemer] #2646222
05/23/17 12:36 AM
05/23/17 12:36 AM
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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It's a confusion to me why this is an issue and certain techs like you (you are not the only one) fail to see the scientific reasons why this works.

Those others are right. Slow pull up to pitch leaves the pin twisted clockwise and it will eventually settle. But do you understand at all what I mean when I say Hooke's Law? If you don't, you will never understand why this works.

But don't take my word for it. Do what I've done. Try to duplicate the results of my experiments. That's the scientific method.

Take a piano with very long nsl.
Pull up to pitch, any pitch, and remove the hammer force without any extra wiggle, etc.
Measure pitch.
Play three ffff blows
Remeasure pitch.
You can even turn the pin foot a notch counter click wise and whack it again. It still will be stable.

If you really care about understanding stability better, you will at least try this, if only to post your results that show you couldn't get stability with this method. If you are more interested in being close minded and belittling any possibility of advancing the current understanding of stability, you will just post more empty criticisms.

This challenge is open to all. Post your results including the length of the NSL and the approximate pin tightness, loose/medium/tight. This determines the relative amount of untwisting.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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