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Hi -

I've been playing acoustic piano all my life. I currently have a Kawai upright that I love.

I'd like to start recording, but am having great trouble getting a quality that I like out of my current environment at home. Won't go into the things I've tried because that's a different forum!

I'm thinking about going digital primarily for recording - but also so I can practice with headphones without disturbing my wife.

I play for church sometimes and have started recording off their CLP-585 through the speaker jack to my Tascam DR-05. Even doing some tweaking in Audacity, I'm not satisfied with the sound of the recordings. You can hear most of them here: http://williford.org/piano (Forgive the mistakes! I recorded these live during services.)

I recently stumbled across the Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D virtual grand piano (http://synthogy.com/index.php/products/software-products/ivory-2-american-concert-d), and I am stunned by the quality of the sound. Would love to be able to use it for recording, but I'm a newbie to all this and don't know exactly what I would need.

I'd also like to keep costs under control while getting quality products. The touch of the piano MIDI controller is important to me. I'm a Kawai man and the VPC-1 would probably be wonderful, but it seems really pricey. I'm considering getting the StudioLogic SL88 ($500) - which seems to have pretty good reviews. Two-pedal add-on for the SL88 is $70.

The Ivory II product is around $189 before seller discount.

I'd need a Windows PC or Mac. I have neither.

Assuming I get all of those, it's my understanding that I will not be able to record directly from Ivory II, but would need a separate program. Would Audacity work? Are there good free programs for the job? If not free, what product under $100 might you recommend? I would want to record as WAV (or other lossless format) and export as M4A and MP3.

When I start adding up the costs, I think - maybe I should just get an ES110 or something similar and try recording to my Tascam via line out like I do with the church Clavinova, but I continue to be haunted by that Ivory II American Concert D and I'm doubtful a line-out recording of any of the ES110's pianos would sound as good.

Is there something I'm missing? Any pointers or suggestions for me?

Thanks,

Paul

Audacity would not work with a VST virtual piano such as Ivory Grand. For that you need a VST host or DAW software (Cakewalk, Cubase, Pro Tools, Logic, Reaper, etc) with Reaper being the cheapest.

If you need to add a computer to the mix, the costs will start getting up there. There are obviously a lot of things you can do with a computer, but personally, I do not think the cost is worth it just for using one VST. If you need a computer for other things, that is something else to consider.

Getting something like the ES110 and using the line out to the Tascam will overall be a lot cheaper, and easier to do.

As far as your current recordings, they sound a little 'hot' and you are getting some digital distortion and clipping. Turn down the input gain on the Tascam or the Line Outputs of the piano. I do not know that series, you said you were using the speaker out? Is there a stereo line out (1 left, 2 right)? Getting a stereo recording would improve the sound a lot. A 585 should sound very good, at least according to other recordings I have hear from those.

Finally, I would guess that you have some device of sorts, since you are posting to the forum. I actually do a lot of recording on my iPad now. You can even get virtual pianos, and recording interfaces for them. I do not know the Android scene well, but I do know you can do the same with and Android device as well.

For the money you would spend on a computer, controller, software (The VST and DAW software) you could get a *lot* of digital piano that would be easy to get a good sound with your Tascam.

I'd say first thing, let's see if any of us can help you get a good sound recording your church piano with your Tascam, and then you will have a better idea of that being the route you want to go or not.

Or Reason DAW…. yes, Reason is going to have VSTs end of MAY. After years of "VST's is for wimps" rhetoric, they just now gave up.

Hi Paul, welcome to the forum, though you're not completely new.

I agree with you about the American Concert D, I'm gravitating towards it myself. It sounds better to my ears than the hugely popular Garritan CFX, and has smaller memory footprint, only 49GB, compared to 122GB in the case of the CFX.

Hopefully the ACD will be offered at a discount, when the new Studio Grands from Synthogy, will enter the market fully. Beware though, you will need a so-called iLok key for registering the American Concert D software license, which adds about $50 to it's price.

There is actually a workaround to record a virtual piano like ACD in Audacity, by setting the input, or microphone to Stereo mix. I've done it, with a few other virtual pianos, and it sounds fine. A DAW would be better, like Reaper.

Apart from the Kawai ES110, check out Casio PX160, Roland FP30, and some Yamahas, P115, or P45, but both of the Yamahas have a lighter action than the ones mentioned before. That is maybe fine, if your Kawai upright will be your main piano.

Talking about Kawai VPC1, it may be possible to get a bundle somewhere, the instrument itself with a software piano, like Ivory II American Concert D. It will still be quite expensive though, compared to the entry-level digital pianos. However worth it, in my opinion, if you can afford it without problems.

My advice, get garritan CFX and a cheap piano maybe, the CFX sounds as good if not better than the cp4 by yamaha, which costs alot more. I too just ventured into vst world and having not tried a software piano before I have been blown away by the CFX garritan, it records like a dream, nothing comes close in the digital piano market to the recorded CFX sound, I mean not even the top clp585 comes anywhere near the quality.

https://youtu.be/FeIK3xPN8vA

Listen to that!

I have a cp4 and use the CFX with it to record through my pc, the results are astonishingly good. I have a standard intel quad core 2.7ghz, 8gb ram and Samsung EVO SSD 500gb with a babyface pro (not really needed) and I use 128 buffer size which gives me latency of approx 3ms. I tried lower buffer size of 64 but got pops and clicks so obviously a more powerful pc is needed for lowest buffer size.

I will never record my playing again unless I record with a VST piano, hardware pianos record poorly, Roland's lx17 which costs a fortune sounds terrible recorded using its tones. Same with clp585, however the Bosendorfer voice does record much better.

I wonder if the kawai es110 is adequate to use as a midi controller for vst like garritan CFX? It's lacking triple sensor action so don't know how important that is anyway?

I wonder how these VST are going to run on a machine with 0 CPU, 0 RAM, 0 DISK....

Is that *really* the right solution for the situation and requirements?

At least for the 585, can't you record to wav onto a USB stick? That would be a clean, pure digital output, better than plugging a mic into a speaker jack.

Hi Paul.

Here's what I can infer from your post: You want to make some good quality recordings of your piano playing, and perhaps you also want a digital piano for headphone practicing.

There are two questions I have for you...

1). How good do you want the recordings to be? And how much money and time are you willing to pay for them? I agree, trying to get a good recording from an acoustic piano is really difficult, especially with the required sound treatment for the recording room. Now if you want to make your own piano recordings going digital does make things much much simpler. If the sound of the CLP isn't good for you, then you may as obsessive as many of us are about our piano sounds. You may want to see if other people have been able to record the CLP better than your hand-held Tascam. Otherwise, you are going to want to go completely digital, with high quality keyboard controller, powerful computer, piano VST, and a DAW.

2). How tech-savvy are you? When you go down the VST rabbit-hole you become your own product engineer, recording engineer, as well as playing the piano. This is the difference between buying a Corvette vs. building your own sports car with commercially available customizable components.

I listened to a few of your recordings and thought that while they didn't sound like piano Parnassus they certainly captured your performance. That's not bad at all!

Zilthy, the OP says he knows he needs a Windows or a Mac for running a piano VST like the ACD. Whether that's the best solution is up for discussion. Recordings on the upright, or the CLP585 for that matter, can be improved with minor fixes, as you and others have touched on.

Thanks for the expertise, Zilthy.

The CLP-585 allows you to record in WAV format to USB flash drive, but after playing you must go through menus to finalize the save..

Here are a couple of pieces I think I may have recorded through USB. (It's been six months since I posted these on Soundcloud and I honestly don't remember.)

https://soundcloud.com/paul-williford/savior-like-a-shepherd-lead-us-bradbury
https://soundcloud.com/paul-williford/glorious-things-of-thee-are-spoken-haydn

Listening to them now, I do think they sound better than the recordings I linked to in the original post.

The problem I experienced with recording to a USB drive on the CLP-585, however, is that it occasionally freezes up during save. That is unacceptable during services which is why I've been connecting the Tascam via the Aux Out (L/L+R). When doing so, I've lowered the recording level on the Tascam down to the 27-30 range. Perhaps I should try a lower level, but it's so much better than the default 50.

The ES110 doesn't allow one to save to USB, but has line out jacks (as well as earphone jacks) that I imagine I would use in a similar fashion - which makes me leery, considering the lower quality I'm getting right now.

Paul

So many people replied before I completed my reply to Zilthy! Thanks for your interest!

Regardless of the recording solutions on the CLP-585 at church, I'd like to have something at home to record on that meets the good-quality-for-reasonable-price criterion.

I like to think I'm intelligent, but I'm finding the engineering confusing! If I go with the ES110, I wonder if something like the "Direct Box" mentioned in this article between the DP line out and the Tascam MIC/EXT IN would be necessary. BTW, the DR-05 doesn't have an XLR input but a 3.5mm mini jack.

So, maybe something like this Whirlwind IMP with an XLR-to-1/8 adapter?

Paul

Your current recordings are not bad, they are a little hot and could use some EQ. I also think they lack the ambient room perspective which is so much a part of an acoustic piano in church.

The developers of a product like Garritan CFX are aware of this and they offer the digital pianist the ability to choose which mic placement they prefer. You can read up on it here, where they discuss a mix of close and ambient micing of the CFX.

https://www.garritan.com/blog/cfx-classic-perspective/

What I would do is just use the CLP-585 that you have access to. You do know that on page 56 of the manual it explains how to record Audio to USB flash drive - no Tascam DR-5 or cables necessary.

But, the CLP-585 also allows you to record your performances on it as MIDI to a USB Flash drive (very inexpensive) which you can then bring home and convert to audio... which brings me to this suggestion...

Any number of members of this forum own a multigigabyte piano sample library and could convert your MIDI performances (sent via email) to the highest quality MP3 using their computer and VST host/DAW. It would take all of a few minutes to do this for an inquisitive fellow pianist. If a few of us do it for him he can compare libraries and at some point when he decides to take the plunge - it should really be the computer he buys first, then the DAW and VST/piano library.

Why not record the 585 straight to a digital recorder? Either from the line outs or the headphone socket. It would have to sound better than people are implying here.

https://www.google.co.uk/aclk?sa=l&...Pi39_jTAhUiJcAKHaW4Cu4Qwg8IMA&adurl=

Hi Peter -

That's what I'm doing, but instead of using a BOSS Micro BR BR-80, I'm using a Tascam DR-05 and a 1/8"-to-3.5mm cable to connect the two.

You can hear my recording results here.

Paul

Yes, but I've had problems with the CLP freezing during the process of writing the recording to USB which I can't have happening in the middle of a service. Also, I'm looking to be able to record at home so I don't have to play everything I want to record (including jazz and classical) at church.

What DAW are you using, Elmer?

Paul

Hi, Paul. I shared some more info via private message (located at the top of the site under MyStuff).

You have a problem coming up:

. . . If you decide to use "software digital-mode recording", rather than the Tascam (which has analog audio inputs),
. . . you're going to have a whole lot of technology to learn.

I'm assuming that, since you don't have either a Windows or Mac PC, you don't know how to use either one of them, beyond simple tasks. [If that's wrong, you can ignore some of what follows.]

Audacity is (IMHO) the simplest serious Windows-based recording software -- and it's free. But _using_ it (without hair-tearing) requires significant computer skills. You need to be comfortable with the whole Windows interface, and that takes some time. And you have to understand what's happening "under the hood", as your signal (from whatever source) goes through the software chain.

I suggest, as a first step, that you check the Tascam's input-gain setting. You're not sure if it's right, and a previous writer has suggested that your recording is clipping. If you can get a WAV file from the Tascam into Audacity (on a borrowed or rented Windows computer), you can see immediately if the signal is clipped, or not. If it _is_ clipped, reduce the Tascam's input gain until the clipping disappears:

. . . That will improve your recording quality more than any other single change you can make.

There's nothing wrong with recording an analog signal -- e.g., from the "Line Out" or "Aux Out" jacks -- if you use a good digital recorder to do it. The DR-05 is "entry-level", but the key specs are quite good:



I've found that recordings with 24-bit resolution give better results that 16-bit recordings, so set the DR-05 up that way. I haven't found much difference with higher sample rates (44.1 / 48/96 kHz) -- but my high-frequency hearing is degraded.

I listened to the USB recordings. They are *so* much better. You should be able to get the same sound from the line outs on the 585 also.

But, for some reason, the recordings you are doing using the 585 in to the Tascam are in mono, which makes a pretty big difference in the sound. Do you have the recording set as stereo? Check that first.

Also, I looked up the specs, and the 1/8th inch input is pretty much hard set for microphone, and all you can do is lower the input gain. There does not seem to be a setting for line level on that input, and that is at bess, less than optimal. They do not have much info on that input other than that. You mentioned using an impedance matching box, but I would not go that route. By the time you add two (you would need two of the ones you linked) and the cables and converters (To go from 2 XLR outputs to the 1/8th stereo input) you could buy a new device that has line level inputs built in.

Personally, I would look at replacing the DR-05. That is the limiting factor.

If I were in your situation, my approach would be something like this:

Get a digital piano like the ES110 (or one of the other ones mentioned). Make sure that it has left and right line outs, and also USB MIDI out. The good MIDI controllers with a decent keybed are all around $1000 and over and in that price range you can get a digital piano with a keybed just as good, and have the piano sounds and a piano you can play and record without using a computer.

Then, I would get a different recording device. Something like the Tascam DP-008EX. Something that can record two tracks at once, with two 1/4" line level inputs (or two XLR/1/4" combos). Depending on which brand/model you went with based on your budget, you can do editing and add reverb, eq and other effects after recording. It's also portable, and you can use it with the piano at church and get a better sound there also. And most of them allow you to import in to a computer if you end up going that route. These are in the price range of $200 - $500. I would take a serious look at the Zoom R8, which also comes with Cubase LE and works as an audio interface and control surface for a computer.

At this point, you have your digital piano, and if you like the sound you get from the headphones, you will be able to easily record it on the multitrack recorder.

If you decide you want to go the computer route and get in to VSTs and such, you have not 'wasted' any money either. That R8 works with the computer, you have your sound interface, and your DAW software already. If in the future you decide you want to try recording acoustically again, you can connect a couple of decent condenser pics to the multitrack.

Anyway, the choice is yours, but that is the route I would go, and why.

Any comment on Alesis Linelink?