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Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2625649
03/21/17 10:00 AM
03/21/17 10:00 AM
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Sweden
RickardNi Offline OP
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I will keep you updated.

But yes, the worry regarding Kawai service is a valid concern in my book, but at the same time, many users have quite positive experiences here on the forum with Kawai.

Do you have a local store you can buy from? Go to them and ask for advice in this very matter. Planning on buying from an online store? Contact them and ask the same, and then contact the Kawai company in your country and ask about it. I would make a judgement from that answer.


Kawai CA97 + Sennheiser HD 650
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Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2625674
03/21/17 11:22 AM
03/21/17 11:22 AM
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I don't think it is perfectionism to expect a piano, any piano - digital or acoustic - to be in 'perfect' condition when you take delivery of it.
If any faults develop, they need to be fixed, if it came with faults, the same.
I can tell you though the grass is not any greener with other brands ^^ Slow to react and respond with action seems endemic in this sector..
And chances are you will not have issues - the exceptions post theirs. Just switch on the tv and you will be hard pressed to find 'good' news';)

Go for the piano you want - if the Kawai is your first choice take the plunge and you can expect a fine piano. If it is not, you can expect service to fix it in the end.


Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2625696
03/21/17 12:31 PM
03/21/17 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RickardNi
Yamaha...everything just feels more solid, in addition to the unit itself being less likely to have any issues.

In that regard, I guess you can say I took a shot with the Kawai, since I knew it was more likely to fail...


I don't think you have expressed that well at all.

What evidence do you have that Yamaha is less likely to fail? Someone I know changed their CLP585 for the NU1 because they had so many issues with the CLP (keyboard problems mainly). So does that example cancel out yours? Does that make them equal now? No, because it's not possible to draw reliable conclusions about either manufacturer from anecdotal information.

What I would say is that Kawai is a bit more 'niche' than Yamaha. For that reason owners are likely to be more visible on dedicated forums such as this. I feel this forum is disproportionately weighted around Kawai, both positive and negative. I think this can give a false impression either way about the products.

This is just an opinion but I would say the typical Clavinova buyer does not necessarily research their purchase exhaustively, does not join forums or court many other opinions. They recognise the brand 'Yamaha', the products are very widely available and recognised by everyone. The good experiences are less likely to be featured on specialist forums like this. Likewise, the voices of regret and disappointment will, in the main, never reach us here.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2625698
03/21/17 12:38 PM
03/21/17 12:38 PM
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Yep. Yamaha is the i-something or other of digital pianos.

My opinion of the brand's line up:
it is overpriced, overrated and in anything but the upper tier of their product line- under performing when compared to other products.

Last edited by Goss; 03/21/17 12:40 PM.

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Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2625699
03/21/17 12:42 PM
03/21/17 12:42 PM
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Many different opinions on this forum, and like my father liked to say opinions are like <orifices for purposes of excreting waste>
every body's got one ^^


Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: EssBrace] #2625700
03/21/17 12:44 PM
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There's one thing I will say: Kawai has a TON of unique, *bespoke* actions that all have different, non-interchangeable parts. That, along with what is certainly a smaller sales volume than Yamaha, really makes for more opportunities for this kind of thing to happen.

Yamaha, on the other hand, really looks like they stretch as hard as possible to use as much of the same action mechanism as possible. While I have no direct knowledge, looking at images it really seems like a GH action part from 10 years ago is directly replaceable with a counterweighted. full wood NWX key from today. The hammer, pivot, keybed and spring mechanisms really look the same.

For better or for worse. But I really like the feel of the Kawai and the fact that they simply don't rest in trying to improve the feel of their actions and the realism of their tone. So while I have no data as to whether either is more or less reliable generally, I'm willing to put up with small discrepancies that I can potentially address myself....I know I'm in the minority here.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: EssBrace] #2625715
03/21/17 02:14 PM
03/21/17 02:14 PM
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Sweden
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by RickardNi
Yamaha...everything just feels more solid, in addition to the unit itself being less likely to have any issues.

In that regard, I guess you can say I took a shot with the Kawai, since I knew it was more likely to fail...


I don't think you have expressed that well at all.

What evidence do you have that Yamaha is less likely to fail?


Wow, that was quoted completely out of context, and even completely out of sentance, and not at all what I said. I gave very specific reasons for why the service, which was the main topic at hand, felt better, and rightfully so.

Small sample sizes don't do well to represent anything, but my expression of less likely to fail isn't based on Tom, Dick or Harry or whoever had failed units, it's based on several things that left an impression on me.

First of all, I've had quite some extensive talks with many different people in many different stores, but in person and online, and when you sell hundreds of pianos every year, it adds up to paint a picture that might tell a story.

Second of all, there are some very specific problems you can find on forums for the premium Kawai models, some of them very reoccuring and are known to many people, not just on piano forums. You can argue that they are based on loose sample sizes, sure, but for me it tells another story, one that is confirmed by sales persons even in huge favor for the Kawai brand.

There are many more aspects, but it's all personal in the end, make your own judgement, I was just trying to tell my story, based on what I've heard and based on my specific situation with a store and support center from Yamaha in the very same town that made it overall a more solid deal for me in That regard.

However, I also said that I would pick Kawai again for its superior key action, and that should also tell you something.

Still, you have to wonder when Kawai is the only manufacturer in my country that offers less than half warranty compared to the others, and when sales persons acknowledge problems that they experienced themselves, specific things that doesn't occur on other manufacturer's models, and when they also mention that those problems can occur with time, while common problems with other brands often show themselves at an early stage.

But hey, I picked Kawai in the end, and I'm glad I did. I am a big fan of Kawai, no doubt, and I speak very warmthly about them, but I won't be a blind fanboy that can't acknowledge (for me) apparent weak spots. Then I wouldn't be able to provide what is, in my opinion, a fairly neutral objective guide to brands and models.

But I strongly agree with you that there are probably a large amount of Clavinova buyers who trust the brand Yamaha and won't even acknowledge some of the problems other enthusiasts might, or even make a fuzz about it. Kawai customers feels more demanding in general, and perhaps that's why we pick them, because we strive for something more.


Kawai CA97 + Sennheiser HD 650
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2625720
03/21/17 02:27 PM
03/21/17 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RickardNi
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by RickardNi
Yamaha...everything just feels more solid, in addition to the unit itself being less likely to have any issues.

In that regard, I guess you can say I took a shot with the Kawai, since I knew it was more likely to fail...


I don't think you have expressed that well at all.

What evidence do you have that Yamaha is less likely to fail?


Wow, that was quoted completely out of context, and even completely out of sentance, and not at all what I said.....


To my mind you were clearly stating/implying/opining that Yamaha is more reliable than Kawai. I quoted you. You then said I'm taking what you said out of context but then you went on to state again that Kawai is less reliable and has problems. So in what way was I quoting you out of context?



Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2625760
03/21/17 04:41 PM
03/21/17 04:41 PM
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RickardNi Offline OP
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Okey, I read it again, and what I think I reacted to was that the first quoted sentence made it sound like the piano sounded like a more solid deal, when I was only refering to the service.

But fair enough, I didn't mean to start a fight here, and in my last post I just tried to expand upon my thoughts, and further explain my experiences and what they were based on. I also tried to clarify that I still think Kawai is the clear winner, though it has some flaws.

Some people think I'm too pro Kawai, some people think I'm too negative about Kawai. I'm just trying to be as unbiased as possible.


Kawai CA97 + Sennheiser HD 650
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2625788
03/21/17 07:03 PM
03/21/17 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RickardNi

Some people think I'm too pro Kawai, some people think I'm too negative about Kawai. I'm just trying to be as unbiased as possible.


Sounds like running a mobile tech blog. Half will think you're nothing but an Apple fanboy. The other half will think you just hate on Apple all day.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2625789
03/21/17 07:05 PM
03/21/17 07:05 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello RickardNi,

Originally Posted by RickardNi
The reason I find this delay acceptable is the fact that I was offered very good service from the beginning, and assured the store that I was in no rush to have this issue resolved, since I could adjust the key volume and have it function very close to a flawless piano anyway.


Originally Posted by RickardNi
I'm getting closer and closer to where my patience starts to run out.


May I ask if you have made your changed feelings clear to the dealer? It may encourage them to expedite your case.

Originally Posted by RickardNi
My best guess though, is that the store is not the dealying factor here, but Kawai. I don't know the full process, but it sounds like the ball is in the hands of Kawai Sweden, and my impression from them is mixed.


Please note that Kawai does not operate a subsidiary company or office in Sweden. Kawai instruments are distributed throughout Sweden (and Denmark) by Juhl-Sørensen A/S.

Originally Posted by RickardNi
The key action is extremely good. I am so happy with it, and practiced at greath lengths to prepare for my very first piano concert just the other week. It just helps me to be a better piano player, and it feels right.


Originally Posted by RickardNi
I just love my piano that much.


That's good to hear. Fingers crossed that your dealer is able to iron-out the imperfections in the keyboard action.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2636470
04/26/17 08:51 AM
04/26/17 08:51 AM
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I wonder if there's any news on this, RickardNi? Another month has passed, it's now been exactly 100 days since you received your piano with the faulty key. Has it been resolved?


Adult beginner, playing since October 2016
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Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2636787
04/27/17 03:54 AM
04/27/17 03:54 AM
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Sweden
RickardNi Offline OP
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Basically no.

The store said that they had branched out the errand to a local Swedish store/technician that should be contacting me "soon".

I was surprised to hear from him actually 2 weeks ago when he asked if he could come over tomorrow (asking 11pm in the evening), but I said that it was too short of a notice since I had to stay home from work and I need at least one day of notice.

Then back to silence. I think it will be resolved soon, and I'm in no rush. I just think it's a bit naive perhaps that the store expected this to be resolved "soon" from the beginning.


Kawai CA97 + Sennheiser HD 650
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2637182
04/28/17 05:07 AM
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Funnily enough I recently found myself deciding between the same two Pianos (CLP-575 and CA67). I also had trouble finding a CA67 to try, but I decided it was worth jumping on a train and travelling a bit further to test it out after reading all the good comments on here.

I was genuinely surprised by how much better the Kawai felt. I thought that people were probably nit-picking over the action, but there's a real difference. I really wanted to like the Yamaha because I could get it slightly cheaper and some of the features are better, but I just couldn't buy it after trying the Kawai.

I just wanted to say thanks for posting this thread (and others with similar discussions) because without it I wouldn't have bothered to make the trip to try it out.

Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2637212
04/28/17 07:43 AM
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Has anyone noticed that the music rests in Clavinovas have gotten really narrow lately?

They used to be wider. Kawai wins in that aspect. wink

Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: Falsch] #2637353
04/28/17 01:34 PM
04/28/17 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Falsch


Replace the entire panel with a touchscreen that can be turned on and off. When off, it could be so black that it almost looks like a normal cheek block.


I know this post is a bit older, but I stumbled upon it while checking the newest posts in the thread and just wanted to add the observation, that this is exactly what Kawai is (apparently) going to do with the Novus NV10...

Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2639568
05/04/17 03:49 AM
05/04/17 03:49 AM
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Sweden
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Thanks, Graeme Swinbank, I hope you also found my guide and review on Reddit and my homepage. It has been linked in this thread as well.

So, finally news on my ongoing errand. The piano has been swapped yesterday, and the new one does not have the faulty G4 key/sensor. It was quite clear that the old one had a hardware fault in some way, which was unfortunate, and the store wanted to swap the piano completely since they didn't have a nearby engineer.

The process took quite a while, but I repeatably told the store that there was no rush. With that said, I think the store expected it to be far more quick. In the end, they let Kawai handle it, which seems correct, and they in turn decided that they would ship a brand new piano from Germany to Sweden, and then they let a guy in Varberg, Sweden, handle the last part of the delivery, which was the main cause of the delay. Turned out that guy outsourced it to another part which handled the delivery to my appartment.

Quite some process, but I have my new piano now and is happy with it. I haven't done any extensive testing at all, but I won't go looking for errors or nitpicking. I will make some checks for velocity maybe, to see if anything sticks out, but just playing some scales on it made it seem fine.


Kawai CA97 + Sennheiser HD 650
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2639612
05/04/17 06:43 AM
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Great news! I am glad it got sorted for you, and you have a brand new piano again! smile


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Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: RickardNi] #2641187
05/08/17 02:20 AM
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Hello RickardNi,

Thank you for the update.

I'm glad to read that this matter has been resolved.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Yamaha CLP-575 vs Kawai CA67, but can't try out the latter [Re: alphonsus] #2642774
05/12/17 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by alphonsus
I stumbled upon this thread yesterday, and read the whole thing, all 8 pages. Since I'm also in the process of choosing my next home DP, and also at this stage mainly thinking between Kawai and Yamaha, it was nice to read the story as it developed, the OPs thinking process, reviews, etc.

I am very unhappy about how the story unfolded in the last two pages, and makes me really concerned about Kawai, both for the quality of their products and the quality of their support. There are so many threads and posts on this forum about Kawai issues (key issues, speaker issues, sensor issues etc.), including on their latest/current products. I know that forums always over-represent problems, since many people come especially to get help with issues. But here we followed someone going through the process - and sure enough his piano was faulty too. And comments like the one above from "minstrelman" that "I just learned to live with it" make me really nervous. The fact that more than two months on, nothing has happened to rectify the issue is really worrying. (I'm quite surprised the OP is seemingly OK with this, since previously he was very demanding and perfectionist about service he receives- and rightly so.) How come a Kawai technician hasn't visited in that time - many people mentioned it could be a minor issue easily resolved.

If it was a utility item (like a dishwasher), I would have already just purchased the Yamaha since it clearly seems to offer superior quality, reliability, and service. But it's a musical instrument, I want to buy with my heart, and I prefer the action and sound of the Kawai I tested (CN37 vs CLP 535/545). But I don't want to part with my hard-earned cash for something of questionable quality and a company that doesn't rectify issues with its products.

What are your thoughts?


I must say, I second all of that, and I'll go further and call that level of service from Kawai beyond unacceptable. I've been testing a number of DPs this week, and the CA67 was top of the shopping list for a number of reasons. But in the course of my research I read story after story of Kawai taking weeks and sometimes months to even get a technician to the site, and often on a newly-purchased machine. In what world is this considered acceptable customer service? Turn it around: you deliver a perfect instrument to the customer - would Kawai then be happy for the customer to fail to pay and make excuses for four months? No, so why is it considered acceptable the other way around?

I have not purchased the CA67 yet, directly as a result of the absymal customer service I've been reading about. I may still do so, but if I have a faulty instrument upon delivery, I'm going to expect it to be REPLACED within ONE WEEK, without any hassle. So Kawai rep - can you promise me that? Or should I take my money to another company on the grounds that you can't promise to actually give me what I'm paying for within a reasonable time frame?


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
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