Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Time to vent about non-qualified teachers!

keystring, you missed Flybear's post. "And don't get me started about teachers not listening to the need of the students ... I told every teacher when we first inquired that we are not interested in recitals and exams ( major test anxiety which tends to trigger migraines ) - if you want a student who loves to play, practices, is self driven and on the calm/ quiet side - we are your people ... if you are looking for a student that does recitals and exams - we are not a good fit ... Still .. most teacher tried to pressure my son into explaining why he doesn't want recitals and made him feel horrible for not wanting to try ( he was ashamed to admit that he gets so nauseated when stressed that he is scared to show up all over the keys - he was in tears when a teacher just ket insisting to tell them WHY no recitals ... they are FUN) ... "

This is when the thread went in another direction. I told her it wasn't a question of teachers not listening to the needs of students.

outo: your answer is typical of educators. I think it's better to say something in a paragraph even anecdotally, rather than say it would take a book to handle a subject and say nothing. Heck, give us something to chew on. The forum is in desperate need of life.

I think strength can be taught and people know what it is without defining it. For me, as a piano teacher, I teach strength by encouraging students to play in recitals. I had one student whose first recital didn't go well. He cried and went back to his seat. He happened not to play in any other recitals but continued with me for years. I liked the student and he went on with his life. Had his parents asked him to try again, it would have been a way for him to acquire more strength of character. I do think that since he never tried again, he missed a chance to develop his spine, and was therefore left more "spineless" than he otherwise would have been.

He did go on to complete a two year college program in music as a drummer, so I'm sure he later did have to perform in some context. He also came back to me to prepare for that program with a piano piece that he had to play at the audition. Then he went on to another degree. So all is well that ends well. He wasn't traumatized for the rest of his life, but could be said to have had one challenging experience when he was seven. For all you know, it may have been just that challenging experience that helped him gain the strength for the other performances ahead.

Tears do not negate the benefits of an experience. Parents nowadays are very afraid when they see tears, fearing the worst--trauma! But every time I've cried in my life, it's been a turning point and the underpinning of my current strength. Strength comes, in part, from adversity.

Saranoya, your strength and compassion today can be linked to the bad teaching you got in the past. Perhaps you could have done without that bad experience, but you wouldn't be the person you are to today without it.

I don't consider myself an educator (I'd rather train animals), but I guess the reason why I answer the way I do is because my background in science just won't allow me to simplify complex matters to the level of "people know what something is without defining it". I don't see the world that way.

There are so many different ways to express strength and at the same time one can hide weaknesses behind a mask of "strenght". Are people who are subjected to abuse and can take it silently without objecting or trying to leave "strong" or "weak" in character? It depends on our point of view. Isn't a person who is able to torture other people strong too? But we hardly welcome such strenght. (BTW. I am not referring to your recitals as abuse, it's just an example).

The problem with *teaching* strength is the same as with anything meant to improve people's charachter: The results are very unpredictable. Sometimes physical punishment of children results in well behaving citizens, but in other cases it creates monsters. Parents deal with these matters with what knowledge and resources they have and have to live with the results. A teacher who meets the child once a week on the other hand does not have much knowledge so can hardly be the best judge on what might work well and what not. To dismiss the parents opinions in such matters is quite arrogant if you ask me. The parents may not know best, but the piano teacher may know even less...

Perhaps you are right, Candywoman. It's a cliche to say that whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. But cliches only become that once large numbers of people recognize them as true.

That said, I wouldn't wish the first seventeen years of my life on my worst enemy. They may have made me into the person that I am today. They made me strong. People tell me every day how strong they think I am. But I refuse to believe there wasn't a more compassionate, less destructive way to achieve that goal than what I got.

I'd say that one bad recital experience at seven is probably extremely unlikely to leave permanent dents of any kind in a child's personality, by itself. But as a rule, I am strongly opposed to forcing people into things they do not want to do, because I know how potentially damaging it can be to find oneself in any situation that provokes both overwhelming fear, and a feeling of loss of control. I.e., I'm scared, and I can't do anything about it, because someone else decided for me that I had to do this, and how it was going to go.

Now, a teacher who explains to a student what the purpose of the recital is (and why that is important), gives them some control over (or at least input into) what's going to happen during that recital (what to play, sheet music or no, acceptable clothes to wear, ...), prepares them well, and ultimately leaves the decision of whether or not to participate to the student, may well be providing a valuable service to those who feel they might in some way benefit from it. I myself have rather crippling performance anxiety, but while my teacher never forces me to do so, I keep participating in the class recitals. I have a clear picture of why I'm choosing that path, and I believe the freedom to choose is a courtesy that should be extended to every student.

I teach as I preach, by the way. When imparting or evaluating any skill or content, I always make sure there are at least two (often multiple) ways students can choose to get it done. Depending on the subject, that might be an oral presentation for some, and a written report for others. They may choose to work in groups, or alone. They may apply the subject matter to a topic of their choice, or freely choose the specific practical application through which they wish to demonstrate their understanding of the material.

I think piano recitals, like any teaching tool, can be used in good and bad ways. I also think it's difficult, perhaps impossible, for a teacher to judge who it will be good or bad for with any degree of certainty. Factors outside the lesson may have a difficult-to-foresee impact. In that light, I really don't see anything wrong with allowing some students (like the boy with the migraines) to opt out of them, and to then teach and assess the skills the teacher was hoping to impart through recital participation in other ways.

I'm going to push back.

Did this student play from memory? Do you push your students to perform from memory at recitals?

Are your students prepared so that they can still have a positive experience even if things go wrong?

How many times do your students have negative experiences performing?

You are linking negative feelings about playing in public with something that almost sounds like a moral weakness.

I'm being as tactful as I can be, because frankly your post made me furious.

I'd say you are 100% wrong.

The best adult student I've ever worked with, someone who studied with me for decades, had a horrible experience in a recital. Her aunt was a piano teacher, and she was forced to play in a recital. Her memory faltered, she felt humiliated, she quit piano, and she did not come back to it for more than two decades.

My aunt was forced to play in a recital by her mother, my grandmother, my teacher. She had a memory lapse and never wanted to play in front of people again.

I mostly don't post here any more because of the incredibly stupid comments I see in this forum, so I won't say more.

But the stuff I'm seeing in this thread is stupid beyond belief.

Final word: I got migraine headaches before performing and once threw up for 24 hours before a major recital. That recital was "successful" in that I played very well.

It did not give me a stronger spine. It did not strengthen my character. The experience did nothing to get to the root of the problem, which was this:

I was scared out of my mind when playing FROM MEMORY.

I'd be glad to explain why this happened, and how I fixed it, but it was not through "spine strengthening".

There is a cliche that says:

"What doesn't kill me makes me stronger."

Well, there are some people who are still alive who are so damaged by stupidity and cruelty that I wonder if it is always worth being alive.

I have NEVER forced anyone of any age to perform, under any conditions. Most of my students so play somewhere, and I encourage everyone to share what they have learned.

But only when they feel ready.

There is really a pretty rational way to prepare people.

1. Play something for one other person, a friend, a parent, a family member.
2. Play for a slightly larger group, several family members, several friends.
3. Move from #2 to playing several times WITH MUSIC in various situations.
4. Make sure you have at least five very positive experiences playing on front of people before you even THINK about doing it without music.
5. Playing from memory is a tricky process and needs to be sort of "pressure checked" in lessons by starting from various starting points, from memory.
6. The teacher should make sure that it is MORE difficult to get through something in lessons than in front of many people. This happens by making what is asked for in lessons more demanding, more difficult. An example is expecting something to be played, from memory, from several different starting points, at random, until it is all rock-solid.

There is more.

I have never once had a student report to me that he/she had a traumatic experience playing something in public, not ONCE, unless such a student volunteered for such an experience or was forced into one against my recommendation.

Bad experiences happen because of a combination of unreasonable expectations and insufficient preparation. But by the time any of us have several such bad experiences, the road to permanent failure is just about paved for good.

Well, fair enough. I stand corrected, for now, on the "probably extremely unlikely to leave permanent dents" thing. I do wonder what kind of support (or rather, lack of support), and / or other things going wrong, turned one bad recital experience into a lifelong fear of / adverse reaction to performing in public, for the people that you wrote about. Perhaps, there is a lesson there for teachers who want to know how to best handle a recital that's gone wrong in spite of everyone's best efforts to prepare.

With that out of the way, I strongly suspect you and I essentially agree on most counts, regarding the issue of recitals.

I do not want to derail the thread from what you said in the rest of this post, about how to prepare students for public performances in order to avoid potentially damaging experiences. I think that list could be very helpful to some people (at least as food for thought, if nothing else). But I do want to say this: I agree wholeheartedly with the above. Cliches always have a ring of truth to them, but they're never entirely accurate. If they were unassailably correct, or nearly so (any good scientist must allow for the possibility that a 'known truth' could be proven wrong at any time), we'd just call them facts.

I've met some of the people you're referring to, who hadn't (and perhaps won't ever have) fully recovered from the effects of unspeakable cruelty, both physical and psychological. There are times when it truly is appropriate to wonder whether it wouldn't be more humane for a person to die. I don't think, though, that a bad recital experience, even if it's due to bad teaching (in the absence of other traumatizing factors in that person's life) will ever rise to that level.

I was not going to respond about "non-qualified teachers" until this thread is turning into "recital" issues. As an adult student who participates recitals regularly, I have seen some traumatizing performances happening in front of me. I remember thinking: OMG, if this happens to me, I probably would never play the piano again. So far to my best knowledge, these individuals are all still playing and performing.

I want to point out one thing - preparation for recitals require two major parts: 1. Learning the music 2. Mental and psychological preparation. These two are equally important but most teachers are only focusing on #1 with students. Preparation for #2 is more difficult because each student is different, and most piano teachers are not trained to teach this in music school or conservatory. It took me 2-3 bad performances to realize that learning a piece really well and performing the piece in public (and look confident and at ease) are two completely different things.

In my opinion, a really good teacher can slowly turn a student who was against recitals into doing it (and even enjoying it) without "forcing" the student. I have seen that happening to people around me (and myself). Most of this part is actually not related to music. My teacher used to make ALL students to the recital even though some of them opt out. His statement is: you are a piano student and you have spent so much time learning these pieces. I respect your choice to opt out, but part of the learning experience is watch other students and support them as a listener. Some are great and some are not but that's OK too. We are all in this together. I get this "lecture" all the time - I am still nervous before each performance but knowing my teacher is there with all of us makes a lot of difference to me.

Hmmm.... Does it have to be a great big potentially traumatic *Recital* or nothing? Could you put together a few smaller less formal events? Call it a piano party, have just a few students, a mix of those eager to play for others and the more shy types. Let them play when they feel like it. Let it be OK to just listen. Might that work as a stepping stone towards doing recitals?

Gary, you know me better than that. I don't force anybody to do anything. Ultimately, if you're really in fear, remember the parent drives the child to the recital, not me. That's what I don't like about this forum. People don't assume the best in one another. And the students don't have to memorize anything, or wear special clothes. And they all do very well, some making some mistakes more than another, but everyone partaking of the goodies afterwards. It's a positive experience, hence recitals are fun.

#2 also needs to include learning how to feel ok after whatever the performance was like.

Hi Malkin,

Absolutely. My teacher keeps saying: it's OK if the performance is not as good as you would like. You are going to play some wrong notes or even memory slips. However, making mistakes is a good way to learn. Before a major recital, he would call in 1-2 students during lessons so we can practice playing for audience and hearing each other's piece.

My teacher believes students can learn a lot from hearing other people's performance - getting motivated, being inspired, and more. Over the years we students all get to know each other ( and parents), and witness each other's progress. It's quite amazing; much more than the 'recital' itself.

My purpose in taking piano lessons is to learn piano, not to develop strength. I would expect a teacher of my children to have a goal of teaching them to play piano and further their love of piano. If I discovered that their goal was also to develop strength and/or character in my children, I'd get that straight or find another teacher. The idea of a piano teacher taking on such a role is, to my mind, arrogant and misguided, and simply boggles my mind.

I think it's great when teachers like Candywoman try to teach life lessons through the subject they teach. Some of the best teachers I've had in my life were like that. But I think it's important for the teacher to be upfront about it (and in my experience most teachers who teach this way are VERY upfront about it).

On the subject of non-qualified teachers, I think it's a sign when the teacher is too much of a generalist, a jack of all trades and is not clear about where they stand in terms of their method and approach to teaching. This is anecdotal - but I met a lot of teachers during my search and it seems like the ones with the most successful students were also very clear about who they are as teachers, what they stood for, and how they went about teaching piano/music. I knew right away (and it seemed so did their students) exactly what kind of a ride they were in for. It makes life so much easier on both sides of the fence. Even if there is some dissonance in the personalities - there is still the likelihood of a good match.

In contrast to the generalists who just listed out what they teach it was very refreshing to hear "I focus on classical repertoire so they can play anything" or "I make sure all my students develop their ears" or "they may not play all their lives but I make sure they will enjoy music all of their life" or "they need to read so that even when they've moved on they can still explore music". These were all hints that I might not get the perfect teacher that I wanted, but that I was going to get a good education in their particular approach.

My two current teachers are extremely opinionated and are constantly in discussion about how to do things - that dynamic is many times just as enlightening as the lessons themselves!

I still remember two things when we first met - my classical teacher said, "I teach repertoire, that's how I teach music, directly in the pieces" and my jazz teacher going on and on about teaching "sound before symbol". I knew right away I was in for an enlightening ride. And they both were up front that playing in public was a big part of their approach. (though for the record, performing in public isn't a significant issue for me).

I have never "required" my students to perform at recital, but 90% do.

The school I teach at after hours, plus several of my homeschool students, are in programs that require lots of memorization, concluding with a senior thesis and defense in order to graduate high school.

They do recitations in chapel, numerous class performances, and are expected to present working science projects, book reports in costume, and read out loud in class, often.

Now and then, I get a nervous student.

In fact, this fall, I had a new girl, new to piano and the school, who was terribly nervous for the Christmas recital. Her dad told me that she had cried at a martial arts test, and a dance show. She asked TONS of questions and I patiently worked with her, and talked through everything. I told her that I still get nervous because I am NOT a performer, and that she would hear me make mistakes, because people do make mistakes. But, we are sharing our music with each other, and then, we celebrate!

She did just fine, and no tears.


For the spring recital, she met it head on, and owned the stage. She had grown so much in confidence and, yes, strength, that I even shared her story privately with the head of school.

He responded that he has heard that same story so many times over his decades of teaching- seeing students gain confidence from the support of others, and discovering inner strength.

Now, I am not taking full responsibility for helping this girl blossom. But, her parents give me a good bit of credit, and we have built a good relationship.

I had another new girl this semester, who DOES NOT HAVE A PIANO, who only practiced with me, who balked at walking up to the piano at recital and did not play.

Her mom shared that she cried later at missed opportunities. She went to grandma's house later and played for her family, and wants to continue with piano, and BUY a piano this summer.

If she had not come to recital, to listen to her peers, to hear mistakes, to share in the music, to see the encouragement from others, she would have missed out.

For my family,
my daughter was very fearful of that senior thesis. But now, she attributes some of her success to what she learned during that process-
study and show thyself approved.
Yes, you can do it.
Yes, it is hard work.
But, you are not alone.

I also let them choose music that they like- that gets that little smile of ,YES, this is MY music.


Perhaps my perspective is clouded by so many years with this teaching of, "a good man speaking well" as the goal for graduates, but is has worked.

I tell my students to, "keep on going, (playing) no matter what."

I also tell my students that I am teaching them the language of music, and developing wrinkles in their brain from learning so much! That helping them learn to scan their music, use what they know, reading directions, listening, balance, etc...helps them in other subjects.

And we give and share many gifts with each other.

A recital (performance, show, presentation, big game, etc) is not a boulder in the path that must be moved out of the way so the student has nothing to overcome and a smooth path. There are a few extra steps to climb and new skills to acquire, and we do it together to continue on our journey.

Hope that helps explain my ideas.

Well said, missbelle.

What you said is very much like my teacher's philosophy. In terms of recitals, many people probably tend to avoid them for all reasons we can think of. I am glad my teacher encouraged me and tricked me into doing it. Yes sharing music with other students is actually part of learning. Some parents of my teacher's students actually came to me and told me I inspired their son/daughter to practice more. I guess an old man who has to work full time, finds time to practice, and also plays in a recital has impacts on some children too.

I've caught up to Flybear's post. She (?) says she has no background in music. The criteria in the post include whether a teacher has a keyboard or nice instrument, and how well the teacher can play. If the keyboard is a keyboard and not even a digital piano, that is pertinent. How well a teacher can play is a common criterion, and mostly a wrong one. First, because a wily candidate can dash off some fancy sounding simple chords and sound impressive to the untrained ear. Secondly because many a concert pianists hasn't a clue how to teach beginners. The important point being "How well does this person TEACH?" as opposed to nice instrument or impressive playing. Obviously if s/he can't even sight read simple music, unless it's an elderly teacher crippled with arthritis, that's not a good sign.

Ok, so you were responding to Flybear. Plus, the recital attitude cited a fear-based reasoning, which is what seemed to in part trigger your response. But it did go off track and stay off track, and never got back to "non-qualified teachers" - it went back to parents and students, and also the value-laden term "spineless".

Staying on-topic for a moment; if this parent's child already has those reactions, it suggests earlier experiences with recitals maybe with a first teacher, not done well, and thus going right under the topic of this title.
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In thinking about this issue: The purpose of learning to play an instrument, is to learn to play the instrument. You need to acquire a certain degree of technique which is the combination of using your body on the instrument and understanding the instrument, an understanding of music, being able to read, and a kind of "applied theory" (when you play a V7-I chord as a cadence, with the feel of a cadence, that is applied theory - when you can read the notes - or are aware of a melody and accompaniment etc.). You do NOT need performing in front of others, in order to learn to play the instrument.
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This gets into tricky waters. The thread was a teacher-to-teacher thread. But here it's teacher-parent, with the issue of parents defining goals when the teacher has the expertise. If you are a competent teacher then you will know what skills must be taught in what order, what practice activities the child must do at home, and what repertoire is suitable for this growth. A parent should not interfere with this. But the issue you're engaged in goes toward value systems, and forming character, which is beyond teaching music per se. The PARENT has a role in this, and this isn't really in the teacher's prerogative. At best, there is a collaboration or meeting of minds. It is a very fuzzy area.

The problem is that these are all generalizations. In an individual case you will probably adjust to the individual and all the generalizations get thrown out the window.

Cw, I think a large part of the problem is the tone you often adopt on the forum, which gives an impression. When you refer to students and/or their parents as "spineless" - talk of "letting off the hook" - these are all value laden statements. These is a lot of emotion at times, and it gets in the way and also confuses.