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If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263912
03/28/08 05:17 PM
03/28/08 05:17 PM
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schwammerl Offline OP
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Tonight I had a casual discussion with my wife who also plays the piano.

She made an observation which surprised and puzzled me at the same time: she said she found the first piano we ever owned - a Petrof 118 upright the most sensitive piano (in terms of pp controllability) she ever played, better in this department than any grand she could remember!?

Many people will choose a grand instead of an upright if tone is not the issue, just because of superior action feeling, still she has a different view.

Were I to ask the question 'What is the best grand for a living room', I certainly would get back comments like 'a concert grand - which would not be an option anyhow - can be played as quietly as any below 6' grand'. But this is not the reply I am looking for.

I just wonder if anyone else shares that opinion of my wife and if there would not be any (around) 6' grands which offer that same sense of controllability?

A hypothesis I would put forward is that modern grands often persue power - rather high tension scales, heavier hammers - at the cost of the dynamic properties of the action (not the static touch properties which may be OK). This drawback is largely compensated in concert grands with their longer keys and more favourable action ratios.

Indeed I often read comments from members who are desribing their experiences with grands as 'a big sound'; also you see statements from manufacturers as 'hughe sound despite it's limited size'...so I assume it must be a trend in modern piano building?

Question: are their any +/_ 6' grands around which do not strive after the big sound (?lighter hammers,) but prioritize dynamic action properties and controllability?

Sorry for the long post but this was the only way I saw expressing myself precisely.

schwammerl.

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Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263913
03/28/08 07:46 PM
03/28/08 07:46 PM
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torrance, CA
turandot Offline
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Quote
she said she found the first piano we ever owned - a Petrof 118 upright the most sensitive piano (in terms of pp controllability) she ever played, better in this department than any grand she could remember!?
Ouch! eek

Well, you already know my opinion but I'll say it anyway so that someone can disagree with me.

The Sauter Alpha at a meager 160 cm is a pocket rocket. I can play that one as softly as any piano I have ever played with plenty of power in reserve (including bass) to be unleashed when needed. I don't think it's because it's small though. I think it's because the level of control on any Sauter grand action is remarkable and so immediate. Of course there is the issue of price. smile

At a more modest price I think a Yamaha C1, C2 (or Kemble clone) allows for a great range of touch possibilities, including feather-light. Not that wild about the tone that the lightest touch produces though. Another that comes to mind because I played one recently is the Estonia 168. That one was very rewarding to play quietly because of the beauty of the tone.

Schwammerl, I'd be interested to know your wife's ranking of all four of the pianos you have owned in terms of touch.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263914
03/28/08 10:38 PM
03/28/08 10:38 PM
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Olympia, Washington, USA
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Could it be that the problem of control, and playing pppp, is more a function of the pianist's technique than the instrument?


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263915
03/29/08 02:17 AM
03/29/08 02:17 AM
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Wichita, Kansas
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gutenberg Offline
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schwammerl, I think I know exactly what your wife is talking about. I don't know if it is just a coincidence, but I have the same opinion with regard to my Petrof 131 upright. It is one of the most sensitive pianos I have ever played. In fact, its "controllability" is so wonderful it has made me reevaluate certain accepted truisms about uprights and grands.

Except for the truly gifted pianist, and the exceptional piano, I don't think the conventional wisdom about the inherent benefits of a grand's action is correct. It sounds nice in theory, but in practice it doesn't necessarily hold true.

On the other hand, I think there may be something to your theory about the power/sensitivity trade-off. I like the Petrof's tone, but it is the controllable action that draws me back. Yet the Petrof is not a powerful piano, in the sense of say a Steinway. I used to play a lot of Beethoven. The Petrof is not well suited to Beethoven. But the Mozart and Haydn is great.

Now to your question. In my playing, I have found one -6' grand that in my view prioritizes dynamic action properties and controllability, and that piano is the small Steingraeber. It is a great piano. In my opinion it perfectly blends power with a wonderfully sensitive action.

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263916
03/29/08 07:24 AM
03/29/08 07:24 AM
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Belgium
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schwammerl Offline OP
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Quote
Schwammerl, I'd be interested to know your wife's ranking of all four of the pianos you have owned in terms of touch.
turandot,

I asked her and here is the answer (from best to worst):
Petrof P 118 (Renner/Petrof) = Petrof P 131 (Renner Original) - W&L 161 grand - Boston UP 132 (far behind the other three)

Quote
Could it be that the problem of control, and playing pppp, is more a function of the pianist's technique than the instrument?
John,

I donnot think so. She's an intermediate player (does play better than I do) and one grand she liked very much but which I didn't mention (because never ever relevant for us) was a Bösendorfer concert.

I was a bit surprised the Sauter Alpha (trurandot) and the small Steingraeber (gutenberg) were suggested as both are known to be quite powerfull for their respective size.

Either this power has to be attributed to design properties (?rim construction?) other than heavier hammers or there must be something special about the action designs (or a combination of both factors)?

schwammerl.

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263917
03/29/08 08:21 AM
03/29/08 08:21 AM
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Wzkit Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by schwammerl:
Quote
Schwammerl, I'd be interested to know your wife's ranking of all four of the pianos you have owned in terms of touch.
turandot,

I asked her and here is the answer (from best to worst):
Petrof P 118 (Renner/Petrof) = Petrof P 131 (Renner Original) - W&L 161 grand - Boston UP 132 (far behind the other three)

Quote
Could it be that the problem of control, and playing pppp, is more a function of the pianist's technique than the instrument?
John,

I donnot think so. She's an intermediate player (does play better than I do) and one grand she liked very much but which I didn't mention (because never ever relevant for us) was a Bösendorfer concert.

I was a bit surprised the Sauter Alpha (trurandot) and the small Steingraeber (gutenberg) were suggested as both are known to be quite powerfull for their respective size.

Either this power has to be attributed to design properties (?rim construction?) other than heavier hammers or there must be something special about the action designs (or a combination of both factors)?

schwammerl.
I agree that both the Sauter Alpha and small Steingraeber are remarkable instruments considering their size. But for the Steingraeber, the dominant impression is one of power, whereas the Sauter, it is one of sensitivity.

Not that the ALpha is not a powerful instrument. It is, but what makes it turly stand out is the sensitivity of the actionb in pianissimo playing. The power is there, but I think the Steingraeber beats it in this department, the Steingraeber tone being "meatier" in that regard.

My guess is that what makes these two pianos special is first and foremost, the scale design, which emphasises sustain and clarity above all else.


Sauter 185 Delta with accelerated action and burl walnut fallboard
Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263918
03/29/08 09:01 AM
03/29/08 09:01 AM
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Olympia, Washington, USA
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Hi schwammerl,

Not to besmirch any pianist on this or other forum but technique does make a huge difference. Thus my rhetorical question. I can generally play one or two levels under even my best students, who, incidentally, are very good.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263919
03/29/08 09:38 AM
03/29/08 09:38 AM
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torrance, CA
turandot Offline
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Quote
Not to besmirch any pianist on this or other forum but technique does make a huge difference. Thus my rhetorical question. I can generally play one or two levels under even my best students, who, incidentally, are very good.
John,

Certainly there are differences in the abilities of players, but if the same player (Vrouw Schwammerl) experiences different touch sensitivities in pianos that she has spent a lot of time with in the same room setting, it's probably not the player, but the pianos.

Some acoustic pianos are on a par with digitals in that they have only three consistent dynamic levels available: medium, loud, and extra loud. Most pianos can better this and yield soft dynamics to any intermediate player. Then there are those that go well beyond that. I've played individual notes, octaves, and rapid note sequences on an Alpha just to see why its touch seems so good in normal playing. When I did this, the range of possibilities seemed almost limitless.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263920
03/29/08 11:07 AM
03/29/08 11:07 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 182
Captain Obvious Offline
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I would try the L168 Estonia. Good action, sweet tone (better than the L190 I think), not as loud as most grands.

I have issues with my Kawai RX-2. It's just very loud for in home use, and the action is on the heavy side, so playing softly results in missed notes. On the other hand, I don't have proper training, so I'm sure my technique is part of the problem. Still, this piano, like most grands, seems to be designed for hall use and not home use.

I think the solution is a piano built for lower volume. You could voice down a piano like mine, but then it sounds too soft. I want a clear distinctive sound without the overbearing volume.

Note to piano manufacturers, why not build a piano line optimized for quality of tone and lower volume?

Anyway, check out the little Estonia. When I first played it, I felt it just didn't have enough oomph in the bass. After having an RX-2 in my house, I suspect it may have been more appropriate. The Mason & Hamlin A might also be a good choice... nice tone, not overly loud.

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263921
03/29/08 11:09 AM
03/29/08 11:09 AM
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Wichita, Kansas
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gutenberg Offline
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This makes me really want to experience Sauter pianos. I will have to make a special trip somewhere.

I also believe that the degree of control is not primarily a function of technique. However, from my listening experience, if you put a Sauter in the hands of a Wzkit you have something special.

As for the small Steingraeber, I agree it is not short on power. But what amazed me was the dynamic range and how expressive you could be.

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263922
03/29/08 11:14 AM
03/29/08 11:14 AM
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gutenberg Offline
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Hey, I just noticed. I hit 100!

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263923
03/29/08 11:25 AM
03/29/08 11:25 AM
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Posts: 278
Portland, OR
ted.stanion Offline
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It's a small hobby of mine to try out as many brands of piano that I can. The grand that best fits your desires that I have tried is Blüthner. A large Petrof (131?) was the best vertical that I have ever tried, but the Blüthners were a level or two above those.

Ted

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263924
03/29/08 12:05 PM
03/29/08 12:05 PM
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Belgium
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schwammerl Offline OP
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I can generally play one or two levels under even my best students, who, incidentally, are very good.
Hi John,

I have no doubt you can as a piano teacher. Would this then mean that you would recommend your students of intermediate level, "who, incidentally, are very good", to buy an upright as controlling dynamics would be easier than on a grand? (they do not need the speed of the grand action anyhow right now).

schwammerl.

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263925
03/29/08 01:12 PM
03/29/08 01:12 PM
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Olympia, Washington, USA
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Schwammerl - you know that one of my uprights is a Sauter? I love it. Anyway, I find that I always have greater control with a grand. Of course, cheap models make life more difficult than high quality models.

I think the use of gravity rather than springs and mechanical devices helps give the grand it's superior touch.

John


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263926
03/29/08 05:52 PM
03/29/08 05:52 PM
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John Pels Offline
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I agree 1000% John V. If you have uprights able to yield better dynamic control there is something wrong with the grands that you are playing. These are essentially regulation issues, but if there is trouble playing softly on grands, I also look at the knuckles in the shank/flange assy. If there is any noticeable distortion of said knuckle, you will NEVER be able to play pianissimo to any great effect. Many techs will replace hammers only and this is GENERALLY false economy, as the knuckles most times are worn as well. Some techs also install and DO NOT taper the hammers to achieve a decent touchweight. This will make the grand more difficult to play and control, PLUS it will cause premature wear of the knuckle. A properly maintained/regulated grand should win every time whether the player is intermediate or advanced.

Captain obvious, it should be possible to voice ANY piano to suit the surroundings. I was just listening to a Youtube performance of Valentina Igoshina playing the C Minor Chopin Nocturne. It is played wonderfully on a 9' Hamburg Steinway. It was taped in a fairly intimate setting. The piano is absolutely lovely. On could not ask for much more. In a concert-hall this same instrument voiced as it is in this setting would sound likely quite mute, and it wouldn't likely project beyond the 15th row. When Horowitz toured he traveled with many sets of hammers, from which he and Franz Mohr would select an "ideal" set for a given hall. If you hear (as extremes) his recording of the 3rd Rachmaninoff concerto and contrast it with some of the recordings that he did at home you will hear something amazingly different. Most of us do not have this luxury, and tend to blame the piano, or brand or model or whatever, but I will bet that ANY quality piano can sound wonderful in a given setting with proper voicing and a decent set of hammers.

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263927
03/29/08 09:41 PM
03/29/08 09:41 PM
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John,

I've always wondered if hammers of lower mass would accomplish what I want. I want a clear tone and a lighter action. I don't want mushy, fuzzy sound.

Does that sound right? I have no idea what parts and labor would be for a new set of hammers. If it were over $1k, I think I'd hold out for a better sounding piano.

Also, doesn't a 9 foot piano have a big advantage with the different action in terms of playing quieter?

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263928
03/29/08 09:42 PM
03/29/08 09:42 PM
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Mat D. Offline
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Pleyel grand...if you can find one...very sensitive and gorgeous tone IMO.

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263929
03/29/08 11:15 PM
03/29/08 11:15 PM
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Tomball, Texas
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John Pels Offline
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C O, there once was a time when hammers had less mass. Unfortunately, most available today fall within an accepted range of weight, which can be modified only somewhat. There is a relationship between the hammers and the action of course, ergo, the action was designed with certain hammers in mind. You can't deviate much without ending up with something too light or too heavy. For myself, I used to be quite happy with Japanese hammers on a lot of my rebuilds. This has changed greatly over the last decade as they have gotten harder and harder producing a sound that I really don't like. Despite my best efforts at voicing them down, I haven't gotten the sound that I want. Even the German Abels have gotten much harder. I think that there's a sound that a lot of folks like, but it's not a sound that I like. I just installed some Abel's on an instrument for one of my old profs. She likes it bright! Bright is what she got, but too bright for my taste. I will be experimenting with a couple more brands on my instruments over the next 6 months. It gets expensive, as a set of hammers runs between $275 and $400 which is my cost. Add to that shanks and flanges, say another $300 or so, plus installation and then regulation and it surely is not cheap.

A 9' has an advantage as regards control, because the keys are so much longer. This negates the use of a lot of lead for counterbalance purposes, all things being equal. Many 7 footers also have longer keys. I once rebuilt a 6' Weber that likewise had really long keys, and it was a total joy to play.
What sort of piano do you have that you can't get happy with?

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263930
03/29/08 11:48 PM
03/29/08 11:48 PM
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There was obviously something wrong with a lot of grands that I have played, John, because their action was obstructive, not conducive, to sensitive, quiet playing. I am not convinced that this is merely a matter of action regulation. I am convinced that a well regulated Renner action in an upright will be more satisfyingly sensitive than a non- Renner action in a more modestly priced grand. Gravity may be great for repetition but most of us don't test the limits of repetition in our playing.

For me, the simple fact is that many modestly priced grands I have played have had a relatively crude action when it comes to pp. And I achieve control on pp on my upright. Thats an awful lot of grands that are out of regulation.

But its time to return to the subject of this thread. Are there any other 6', +/-, grands, besides the Weber you mention that in your experience are particularly sensitive to the touch?

Re: If power is not an issue...but controll very much so? #263931
03/30/08 01:14 AM
03/30/08 01:14 AM
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schwammerl Offline OP
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Quote
For me, the simple fact is that many modestly priced grands I have played have had a relatively crude action when it comes to pp. And I achieve control on pp on my upright. Thats an awful lot of grands that are out of regulation.

But its time to return to the subject of this thread. Are there any other 6', +/-, grands, besides the Weber you mention that in your experience are particularly sensitive to the touch?
gutenberg,

I should not worry right now we are deviating from the original subject: finding an explanation for WHY some people may find IN GENERAL that they can achieve more controll over pp on an upright than on a grand ...and if then some moderate sized grands would not show, what you call that "obstructive" feeling of many grands, why this is and what brands/models these are.

The question is indeed not what to do to improve the responsiveness of the action of a particular grand/model.

We read on this forum often and also in the comments from John Pels here there are quite some options from extensive regulation and voicing, changing hammers, knuckles, hammer tail shaping, half moon punchings, Stanwood modification ....up to swopping an entire action.

That is NOT THE QUESTION indeed.

I assume that more people than we imagine are occupied with the same or SIMILAR concern. E.g. it was not the first time someone opened a thread with the title 'Best small grand for a living room'(18-03-2008):

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/21601.html#000000

Thank you all so far.

schwammerl.

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