2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
42 members (AndrewJCW, Beowulf, Almar, Derek Mc, 1957, David Boyce, Boboulus, crazyRyoga, 10 invisible), 531 guests, and 524 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2638901 05/02/17 11:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,173
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,173
Even with headphones it isn't really silent though. The clunk of the keys will annoy people above, below, and to the sides. If you haven't already, check if the school has a policy on DPs in rooms.


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian, Bluethner / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
(ad)
Sweetwater Gifts That Rock
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2638963 05/02/17 02:18 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 126
F
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 126
Greetings everyone & especially Gombessa,

Thanks for all the concerns. Logistically, the DP in a dorm room is not a problem as other students already do that and the dorm room is plenty large. The roommate happens to be this student's best friend and they have already measured the room for as large as the smallest AvantGrand. Not a problem. The student being able to afford that is another question - he'll likely have to sell off his acoustic at home and I'll probably recommend against that. But that this point, I'm just helping him explore. The roommate also plays an instrument and they actually plan to possibly play together.

As to music room availability, I'm not sure how the school is in this aspect. Regardless, here's the logic for having a DP in the room. The student is doing a double major and a minor, with the 2nd major completely unrelated to music so he will be carrying what basically amounts to a maximum load every semester. He's told that he will be expecting to practice, at minimum, 3 hours a day and likely more. So the DP is for him to catch focused 30 minutes of practice here and there in the dorm room. If it takes 10 minutes to walk to the practice room and 10 minutes back, that's already 20 minutes saved for in dorm room practice. If this sounds a bit exaggerated in efficiency, it isn't because this student has kept a remarkably disciplined schedule even as a junior higher and high schooler and is the national champion in another arena unrelated to music. The question of discipline is not in question - it truly is a question of maximizing time.

Hence my posting this thread. THANKS again for all the helpful comments and concerns - all gratefully received.

Last edited by faulhorn; 05/02/17 02:29 PM.
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2638978 05/02/17 02:51 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,376
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,376
Originally Posted by Gombessa

Edit: Sorry, this came off as was harsher than I intended.

Don't worry about it, that pales in comparison to some of the insults that get hurled in my direction on the Piano Forum sometimes.

Faulhorn,
My apologies for being the contrarian here, but since I make my living as a college piano professor and have attended or taught in piano programs ranging from liberal arts colleges, to conservatories, to 2nd tier state schools, to R1 flagship universities, I tend to be more than a little opinionated about it based on life experiences (and those of my students).

I would see what the music room availability and quality situation looks like before making a decision. I would also offer a word of warning regarding wanting to study literally everything: depending on the level and standards of the music program (a really important caveat), it will be almost impossible to achieve excellence in piano performance + another major + another minor. At the time I entered the Peabody Conservatory, there were 14 freshmen in the piano area. Of these, 3 or 4 tried to double major in something at Johns Hopkins University. By the end of the first year, every single one of them dropped out of the conservatory. At the end of 4 years, only 7 of us graduated with a piano performance degree. It's tough to fit in a full credit load, do all your homework, eat and sleep just enough to survive, have a little bit of a social life... and then practice for 4 hours a day on top of all that.

If I were cash-strapped, as you described this student, I would rather "splurge" on going to a good summer festival or two (working with a great teacher that isn't the regular instructor during the year) over having a digital in my dorm room, provided the facilities are adequate.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2639010 05/02/17 03:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,268
T
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,268
I sound like a hypocrite since I just got a Yamaha GT2 and insisted that I needed something with a real action, but in this case I would actually recommend a VPC-1 or something like that. The reason is that the student is at a music school where they have easy access to real grand pianos, so adjusting back and forth is not a problem because most of the time they'll be able to play on a real piano. In fact the VPC-1 not having a real piano action might even be a good thing because it'll make them more flexible regarding pianos with different touch and weight. When learning a new piece (aka practicing slowly), the different action won't be a problem at all.

Last edited by trigalg693; 05/02/17 03:52 PM.
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2639020 05/02/17 04:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,173
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,173
I think terminaldegree offers good advice. I would also suggest that an MP11 or particularly an Avant Grand is overkill if money is tight (for goodness sake don't sell your home acoustic :rolleyes:) and it's going to be used for just a quick half hour here and there. Even something like a Casio Privia would probably more suitable. But start the course first and see what the practice room situation is, and what if any DPs the other students are using.


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian, Bluethner / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
trigalg693 #2639023 05/02/17 04:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 190
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 190
I'm an old fart. 65 years old. I've played as many pianos as a toilet seat has seen a**ses.

Why is this important? A professional pianist (unless at the level of a Horowitz who had his personal piano hauled out his apartment window and placed in Carnegie Hall when he gave a concert) is going to play a different piano almost every day.

It's not about putting exactly the same amount of weight in a certain passage each time. It's about always listening and adjusting your technique in order to produce the best sound the piano in front of you can produce. Ear to hand coordination. Period.

In another era the pianist would have been quite happy with an old upright or even a practice keyboard (just the keys, no strings, etc.) for practice away from the end product.

So, don't over worry about all the little details. Learning how to make 'music' on a somewhat less than perfect DP may open up some neural paths that can help teach a fundamental lesson of hand-ear coordination.

That's my story and I'm going to stick with it.

Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
Morodiene #2639040 05/02/17 05:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 15
P
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
For a piano performance major in college, in a dorm room? Neither. For doing theory/ear training homework? A small MIDI keyboard.

Many of the top performance programs have practice room access 24/7/365. Even the schools that close their buildings at night, tend not to do so until 11pm or midnight. For that matter, sometimes professors (I don't, but some do) will allow access to their studios for practicing at odd hours. Dorms typically have enforced "quiet hours" where practicing music is specifically prohibited. You could practice with headphones, though...

Unless the facilities at the college are woefully inadequate, students can find enough practice room availability just by managing their schedule appropriately. The course load that a typical undergrad takes isn't really conducive to practicing more than 4 hours a day or so, on the weekdays anyway. Practice room access is always easier on the weekends.

Most practice room pianos are terrible, even the locked ones for piano majors. I think having a piano in the dorm for silent practice would be great, as long as it doesn't annoy the roommate(s).

To the OP: you mention the student preferring heavier actions, so I think perhaps you should consider the VPC1 as previously mentioned. That may be more to their liking than the MP11.


Quality of the practice room pianos is definitely something to consider here. My college had two beautiful Steinway pianos, one in the music building's rehearsal space and the other in the primary auditorium where concerts were given. Neither was regularly accessible, however, and the practice rooms mostly had relatively cheap uprights. The only grand was a poorly maintained Kawai grand that really needed some adjustments to the action.

A fine acoustic grand will always beat a digital, but I sometimes think that a good quality digital, especially given its other advantages (portability, noise, etc) can in some cases be better than a cheap or badly maintained acoustic.


Prog enthusiast, keyboardist, occasional guitarist/bassist/mandolinist
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2639044 05/02/17 05:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 404
C
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 404
I'm a professional musician, though not at the "concert pianist" level. I own a Kawai acoustic grand, and a Kawai ES8. I play on whichever is most convenient for the task at hand, and I can play or practice on either. The keyboard dimensions and feel are essentially the same. In this day and age, you should be able to play either interchangeably unless you expect your career to be restricted to strictly to classical music concerts in well-equipped auditoriums. The MP11 is closer to a "grand" in feel, but the ES8 is considerably lighter and has quite decent speakers, so it serves as an easily portable piano for concerts in a places that don't have a decent piano (senior centers, arts centers, schools), or for rehearsals with chamber ensembles or jazz combos.


Rodney Sauer
Kawai KG-2E • Kawai ES8
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
terminaldegree #2639087 05/02/17 09:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,298
M
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,298
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Gombessa

Edit: Sorry, this came off as was harsher than I intended.

Don't worry about it, that pales in comparison to some of the insults that get hurled in my direction on the Piano Forum sometimes.

Faulhorn,
My apologies for being the contrarian here, but since I make my living as a college piano professor and have attended or taught in piano programs ranging from liberal arts colleges, to conservatories, to 2nd tier state schools, to R1 flagship universities, I tend to be more than a little opinionated about it based on life experiences (and those of my students).

I would see what the music room availability and quality situation looks like before making a decision. I would also offer a word of warning regarding wanting to study literally everything: depending on the level and standards of the music program (a really important caveat), it will be almost impossible to achieve excellence in piano performance + another major + another minor. At the time I entered the Peabody Conservatory, there were 14 freshmen in the piano area. Of these, 3 or 4 tried to double major in something at Johns Hopkins University. By the end of the first year, every single one of them dropped out of the conservatory. At the end of 4 years, only 7 of us graduated with a piano performance degree. It's tough to fit in a full credit load, do all your homework, eat and sleep just enough to survive, have a little bit of a social life... and then practice for 4 hours a day on top of all that.

If I were cash-strapped, as you described this student, I would rather "splurge" on going to a good summer festival or two (working with a great teacher that isn't the regular instructor during the year) over having a digital in my dorm room, provided the facilities are adequate.
+1. Double-majoring in music and anything else is going to be disastrous. Why not recommend the student major in that something else and minor in music? It's really hard to make a living as a pianist, unless you wear many hats (accompanying, coaching singers, teaching, etc.).

He may not listen to you, but after a semester of double majoring I'm sure he'll change his mind smile


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2639136 05/03/17 12:38 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 126
F
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 126
Thanks for all the continued comments. Does look like MP11 will be sufficient even though there may be better options.

As to those who are focusing on the wisdom/dangers of a double major, I'll forward your comments to the student. However, I note that this is an unusual situation where if the student were to pursue only one major, he will likely drop the piano performance because 2 1/2 months ago, that wasn't even on his radar. He is passionate about piano but never competed in any significant competition nor took any piano tests so he thought at best, he could only qualify for a minor for which he auditioned. The piano chair and another prof heard the audition and redirected the student to the performance degree with a nice scholarship. Since that audition, there's been other recital/concert opportunities that has come his way this summer so there seem to be some confirmation. He is also coming into the program as a high schooler but has already picked up 40 college credits, and the scholarships for the school can extend to a 5th year so they are aware of the load of a double major plus minor. The academic counseling has already gone through the schedule with a fine toothed comb. It looks doable. I too would have counseled the student against the degree except that he has already demonstrated rather unusual time management and discipline as a high schooler where he also coaches other students both online and in person.

The school has given him permission to drop either major if need be though a few of us are cheering and praying him on and hope he breaks the statistics by succeeding wildly so that he can make a real impact.

Do thank you all for the very very helpful comments as the student will be reading this entire thread.

F

Last edited by faulhorn; 05/03/17 12:49 AM.
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2639155 05/03/17 01:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,150
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,150
Faulhorn, that kid's got a bright future, piano performance major or not. Best of luck to him!

The only thing I want to leave with, as a (former) student who has spent more than my fair share of all-nighters in the school library (with a 4.0 major GPA and magna cum laude in grad school): you can't underestimate the benefit of easy access. 10 min to and from the music hall may not sound like much, but if you're busy with other studies and have 30-45 minutes at a time, it's easily the difference between going to a practice session and not going at all. Multiply by every day spent at school, including weekends.

I have literally zero idea whether a Casio Privia, Kawai MP11 or Yamaha AvantGrand is a benefit or a hinderance for a formal piano performance student, but if any are helpful, I would MUCH rather have one available wherever I am staying, rather than have to rely on scheduling an off-site practice room, over the course of a 4-year, 1,460 day program.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
Morodiene #2639259 05/03/17 09:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by Morodiene
+1. Double-majoring in music and anything else is going to be disastrous. Why not recommend the student major in that something else and minor in music? It's really hard to make a living as a pianist, unless you wear many hats (accompanying, coaching singers, teaching, etc.).

He may not listen to you, but after a semester of double majoring I'm sure he'll change his mind smile

I'm rather surprised to see this sort of comment because double majors, with music performance being one of them, is actually very common in my country - in fact, they are generally double degree programs here which are even higher workload than double-majors. I didn't notice a particular difference in the accomplishments of those who did the single major/degree and those who did the double major/degree It was really just a personal decision people made by those who felt they could manage the workload.

Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
ando #2639287 05/03/17 11:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,298
M
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,298
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Morodiene
+1. Double-majoring in music and anything else is going to be disastrous. Why not recommend the student major in that something else and minor in music? It's really hard to make a living as a pianist, unless you wear many hats (accompanying, coaching singers, teaching, etc.).

He may not listen to you, but after a semester of double majoring I'm sure he'll change his mind smile

I'm rather surprised to see this sort of comment because double majors, with music performance being one of them, is actually very common in my country - in fact, they are generally double degree programs here which are even higher workload than double-majors. I didn't notice a particular difference in the accomplishments of those who did the single major/degree and those who did the double major/degree It was really just a personal decision people made by those who felt they could manage the workload.
In the States, double-majoring in music + anything is really discouraged because of the workload and the extra time outside of class needed for practicing.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2639294 05/03/17 11:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,150
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,150
In the US, double majoring is usually an exercise in efficiency. Do you have enough overlapping requirements (calculus, linear algebra, physics, organic chemistry, etc.) Where your effective workload is closer to 1.5x rather than 2x the work?

Piano performance, unless combined with music theory or another complementary program, sounds like it would require a ton of non-overlapping work and practice!


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
Gombessa #2639369 05/03/17 02:45 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,376
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,376
Originally Posted by Gombessa

sounds like it would require a ton of non-overlapping work and practice!


Bingo.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
Morodiene #2639416 05/03/17 04:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 695
EP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 695
Originally Posted by Morodiene
I have a concert grand piano and an MP11. I have not tried the AvantGrand. However, I use the MP11 as my only practice instrument when I'm away in the summers. When I return to my acoustic, there is no adjustment time needed besides the slightly different spacing of the keys between the two pianos (and every piano is slightly different in this). But the action is nearly identical.




This got me curious since I own two Kawai grands and an MP11, so I measured the width of the keyboard and they are all three exactly the same (from the left side of the lowest A to the right side of the highest C). Not sure what Morodiene is referring to here. Would other (standard) pianos be different?

And if I may add to replies to the OP's question, I think an MP11 would be a fantastic instrument to have in a dorm room. Can't comment on the AG as I've never tried one.

Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
faulhorn #2639503 05/03/17 11:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,150
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,150
I've heard of different pivot lengths, different key lengths, and certainly different black key widths. But different keybed widths is a new one! But thinking about it, I can't how see that can't be the case with different manufacturers over hundreds of years. As "standardized" as pianos may be nowadays, I'd fully expect there's some variation out there.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: For those w. Acoustic Grand: Kawai MP11 vs Yamaha Avantgrand
Gombessa #2639638 05/04/17 07:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,298
M
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,298
Originally Posted by Gombessa
In the US, double majoring is usually an exercise in efficiency. Do you have enough overlapping requirements (calculus, linear algebra, physics, organic chemistry, etc.) Where your effective workload is closer to 1.5x rather than 2x the work?

Piano performance, unless combined with music theory or another complementary program, sounds like it would require a ton of non-overlapping work and practice!
I was a voice major and wanted to double major in piano and they wouldn't let me. Well, it was "highly discouraged". I have a voice student who is graduating high school this year and wanted to double major in voice and pre-med, and the colleges she interviewed discouraged that as well, despite the fact that many people in the medical field are musicians.

RE: the key spacing, I took a picture of my Petrof and the MP11. I think the keys are the same, but it's the space between the keys that is different. It doesn't seem like much, but when you are accustomed to playing centered on a key, it can throw you off a bit. But it's not a huge deal, if I play a piece a few times I get used to it.

Petrof keybed length was 4' 7/16" :

[Linked Image]

MP11 keybed length was 4' 3/16" (sorry for the lighting):

[Linked Image]


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: For actual piano performance major: Kawai MP11 vs Avantgrand
faulhorn #2639731 05/04/17 10:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 695
EP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 695
I see what you're talking about. My Kawai grands are also 4' 3/16", the same as the MP11 and slightly less than your Petrof.
I don't think I'd ever notice the difference without a ruler. Maybe my aim isn't that accurate anyway. ha

Re: For actual piano performance major: Kawai MP11 vs Avantgrand
faulhorn #2639763 05/04/17 11:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,345
E
EPW Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,345
Talking about University, my wife when going through nursing program wouldn't let her double up or even minor in voice/music.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
iPad pro (2020) MIDI Output not consistent
by Almar - 01/18/21 05:33 AM
used Kawai RX-1 or new Kawai GL-30?
by Guido, Roma - Italy - 01/18/21 05:23 AM
Roland F701 vs FP-90X (?)
by Mulberg - 01/18/21 02:17 AM
Garritan CFX, Sustain Release Samples ???
by DigitalMusicProduc - 01/17/21 11:18 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,350
Posts3,048,280
Members100,102
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4