Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum holberg prelude help?

Would anyone be willing to give a listen to my Holberg prelude recording and give some feedback re what to work on?

I've been working on this piece for some time now and I LOVE it. The tempo is still slow at 110 per quarter, though it took me a lot of practice to even get it to this stage. The suggestions people posted in my last thread about hammering really helped me to make advances with this. I'd like to get it to 120 if possible. But outside of tempo, any advice on what to focus on?

One problem I'm having is pedaling. It sounds to me like I'm overpedaling but anytime I play portions without pedal it sounds not good at all. maybe because i just have an old keyboard with a single pedal I don't know.

The trills that comes at the end of the first section (at 35-38 seconds then again at 1:15-1:18s) and the one at 3:34 near the end of the piece are measured because I didn't know how else to play them to be able to come out of them successfully. as in I'm playing them to correspond with the notes in the other hand. Do you think they sounds ok like this? the other trill near the end that starts at 3:12 I just wing it and hope for the best and sometimes it works and sometimes its a terrible awkward exit so maybe I should be more precise with that one too.

I totally miss the RH broken climbing chords from 3:09 to 3:15 (starting off the last 9 bars of the piece). that is one thing I know needs work, as does my RH trill in the second to last measure which I can't seem to play for any length without massive amounts of tension stalling my fingers. I've been playing that with fingers 2 and 3. I've heard the thumb and finger 3 work well to trill too but i can't figure out how to make that work either without all the tension.

Anyway, any suggestions for practice would be appreciated!

https://app.box.com/s/ejas5alfzh18vxt3fcytlwko84siv1w8

Here is a link to the score. I'm just playing the Prelude, from pages 4-9.

https://app.box.com/s/gmet5smqs8sdftbqc6jce3b5rj3axree

Hi, Valencia,

I haven't been on PW much lately but happened to see this. I love this suite! I'll try to listen to your recording again later this week, but here are a few thoughts.

A few things that I felt you have really mastered: The 3 vs. 4 in m 10, 12, etc.; very clear LH melody in that section. Also the first long trill, m. 15-16. And the accents in m. 35-37 really stood out.

Re the trills, my teacher told me to make them all measured, and I think Eva Knardahl also does so (see way below for link and "who's Eva?"). The long LH trill m66-67 also will be easier if you practice it that way. The hard thing about the final RH trill m71 is getting to RH finger 5 on the G that follows the trill, so it will be in place for the final chord. I used 13232323232323 on the trill , then scooted the 5 into place for the G at the end of m71, per Henle, so it is in place for the final RH chord. (Your edition has 1 on that G at the end of m71, so you may want to try this variation on the fingering.)

For the RH climbing part that starts in m64, I can't see how you are doing it, but the Henle edition has RH13 on the 1st two notes of each 4, and LH13 on the last 2 notes of each 4, through the end of m65. (Your score appears to put the whole thing in the RH.) However, the RH has to take over the whole job in m66 due to LH trill. I was told to rotate my wrist: wrist down and to the R on the 1st note, around toward the L, and then up on the last of each 4 notes.

Other ideas to consider:

More dynamic contrast, e.g., more crescendo into m6-7, and more decr. m8, so m9 presents a totally different character. Much more cres. in m17 and fz on the last D.

An ever so brief pause between major ideas, after the two fz chords in m29-30, for example.

Much more weight into the ff or fz chords in m 19, 23, 29, 30; maybe an eyeblink of a pause before, put all your body weight into the chord, stay there a moment, and lift up from the wrists. When there are two such chords in a row, give each one ample time. My teacher suggested a slight ritard for the adjacent chords in m29-30, and said "hold forever" on the final chord. The separation and full weight into the chords also would help give more of a pesante sense - and a sense of arriving at the conclusion - for m68-70.

You should feel encouraged by how far you have come with this! I hope this helps; happy to answer any specific questions, if I can.


If interested:
Holberg Suite prelude played by Eva Knardahl, considered an authoritative Grieg interpreter. Don't listen for tempo, but for dynamics and phrasing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjHsTANn5Ew

Evidence I learned the piece a few years ago (hope to return to/improve this at some point and finish the suite):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nx0_0cyMsY&feature=youtu.be

Hi Elaine! Thank you so much for your helpful comments and for taking the time to give such a detailed response! And thanks for sharing your recording of this piece, so beautifully played! I haven't even looked at the other pieces in this suite yet, I've been so busy and enamored with the prelude, but your recording has me curious now about the rest!

One question I have for you is what notes to bring out in bars 27-28? i never know what to do with that section. I think i hear, in your recording, to bring out the first note of each group of 16ths?

I'll try your suggestions about the trills and the ascending broken chords near the end of the piece. When your teacher says to "hold forever", does that mean the very final chord of the piece?

My dynamics definitely need some attention. I've been so focused on just keeping my fingers even up to this point. That's been the biggest challenge for me so far in playing this and I still have issues with it. I rarely practice this piece without the metronome.

Wow to Eva Knardahl's recording! I'd so love to be able to play the piece like her. This piece really makes me happy, now if only my fingers would move just a little bit faster! Oh well, I'm trying to keep the brakes on because there is no sense playing it faster if it is sloppy and uneven. On my copy of the piece it says Allegro vivace, and then a half note at 92. That would be a quarter note at 184, wouldn't it?! Yikes! I think I will be lucky if I ever get it even to 120.

Valencia, I'm glad to hear my suggestions were helpful.

Re bars 27-28: that section runs m25-28. There really shouldn't be a strong accent on any of the notes, but each note (or chord) should be clear and distinct. If I were doing it again, I would place a slight emphasis on the 1st (LH) - less than I did in that recording - and 3rd (RH) of each group of 16ths, since those are parallel (but not exactly identical) melody lines.

One other comment, re the long run in m41: Don't think you need to play this exactly according to the metronome. For practice purposes, my teacher divided it into 4 sets: first set of 6 notes, 2nd set of 6 notes, 3rd set of 6 notes, and 4th set=9 notes moving into the bass. Don't accent any of those except the very first note, which has an accent mark. It's ok to slow down here, as long as every note is clear. For a dynamic arc, my teacher suggested going down to p in 2nd set of 16ths in m40, then slowly increasing volume through the long run, then the fz chord in m42.

The Henle also has half note at 92 (so quarter = 184) and a footnote that the orchestral version has half note at 76. The piano version came first, of course! I was told a more realistic non-Eva K. tempo is 120-144 per quarter note; and to practice at a trudging 80 per quarter note to hear all the details.

"Hold forever" does refer to the final chord. My teacher says, don't take the count in the music literally. Make it a real, obvious, and strong ending. In the first place, there is a fermata over it. His usual instruction starts with: count double the note value. Then we progress to "count ten times the note value." Then "just hold it until you can't hear any sound coming out of the piano, and lift hands (gracefully) and release pedal at the same time."

I look forward to hearing another recording as you progress, and hope you will be tempted to take on other parts of suite. I'll be happy to answer any questions for parts that I've worked on.

Thanks again Elaine! These are all very helpful comments and I will give them a try! One more question related to what you said in your first post about pausing after major themes...let's take bar 19-20 for example...

There is the first chord...

Then the C up in the right hand, then the tumble down finally to the ds that end bar 20.

When I first played this section I was doing it with the metronome, and when I recorded and listened to it I though something isn't right because that's not how it sounds when other people play it! It seems like Im supposed to take some of these notes slower, so maybe pause a little before that initial chord in bar 19? and then to sit on the chord and not make it too short? and then maybe linger even on that top C? And then what about after the final d in bar 20?

What do you think about that? I guess I'm never sure what is the proper way to time any of those notes. I remember Heather from this site saying something about many beautiful suspensions in this piece. I am not sure if this is the kind of thing she was talking about.

Here are bars 19-20.

I don't have the surrounding measures with me but...

The fortissimo suggests it might be a climax? So although it takes only the first beat of the measure, the tempo can slow down anyway? That's a second inversion of D7 and the passage is like a cadenza (there are courtesy accidentals on the C suggesting we've been in D Major)? It looks like a flourish back to tonic from where I'm sitting so timing is less rigid. The top C falls on the second beat with a strong accent so a BIG note that holds just into the third beat before the rapid two handed arpeggio descent. I would pause after the chord rather than before, hold the top C until I could hear the audience get restless, so to speak, before the final accelerating descent. The final d is just heralds a deceleration back to the in tempo G in M21 which is fp.

You can exaggerate some of this in practise and it will normalise (but with the same effects) when back in situ. At least this might give you some things to consider.

A few quick responses to Valencia and Richard re the part around m19.

The Prelude is in G major (as are all pieces in the suite except the Air, in g minor). I think the natural is placed on the C in m19 because C was sharped in both RH and LH in the preceding m15-16, and there is no occurrence of C in m17-18. (I'm sure I would have long forgotten that C had ever been sharped by the time I reached m19, but anyway... It could be, per Richard, that those previous measures were in D major, but theory is one of my huge weak spots.)

This prelude seems sonata-ish in format, main theme through m18 is repeated in its entirety, the "development" starting in m19, with main theme recurring in m56-67, then a grandiose 5 measure conclusion.

The ff chord that starts m19 (and the development) follows a slight natural pause after the conclusion of the main theme, and is followed by a pause to let the ff chord sink in and to move your hands up to the C, 2 octaves above middle C. I agree, "sit on the chord and not make it too short." I think that's true of all the major ff or fz chords in this piece; see also end of m29, start of m30, 1st qtr note octave m42, and all the pesante chords m68-the end. Each one should sound distinct, so they need a little extra space and time to make this work. I like Heather's use of the term "beautiful suspensions" to describe this.

The first C in this series starting in m19 is accented (>) and held longer anyway, due to its longer time value, but yes, per Richard, wait til the audience grows restless and then unleash a cavalcade of notes.

Onward through m25: m23-24 parallel m19-20, so follow the suggestions above. Also pause just after m20 and after m24 as if to say, now here's a different idea (also a chance to move your hands to a different part of the keyboard, make sure pedal is clear, etc.).

Smooth sailing from here until...?

Wow! Never heard this before so I can't comment constructively but to say it sounds good to me!! That Eva Knardahl recording though is unbelievable.

Two thumbs up to you!

Thanks cmb13! And yes, isn't the Eva Knardahl performance brilliant?!

Thanks Richard and Elaine for your comments! Now I understand how one might discern the suspensions from the score. I will work on letting it breathe more in those places. I will have to record my playing to check because otherwise what I hear doesn't necessarily equate what I am playing. My brain will make it sound better than it is because I know how I want it to sound!

When I think I've made a few improvements I'll record and post again.

Smooth sailing Elaine hahaha! Right.