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Kawai es100/110 quality control #2633699
04/17/17 12:17 PM
04/17/17 12:17 PM
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Oceansounds Offline OP
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Based on basically everyone who got a es110, they all had key spacing issue, some had sticky keys, others had straight up malfunctioning keys. Just based on that it seems like key spacing issue is a design choice/flaw that exists in all es110 (varying in severity).

My question is, is it worth it to get a es110 at this point. Should I wait a bit more to let Kawai sort these issue out first. I like the es110's action and sound better than Yamaha p115 and Roland fp30 but those two does not have such poor quality control.

I tried a new es110 at a local dealership and there are slight spacing issues so possibly Kawai is just never going to fix it? This is triggering my OCD lol.

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Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633705
04/17/17 12:31 PM
04/17/17 12:31 PM
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I've yet to see these key spacing issues. People posted photos here, but I can't find anything wrong with the keybed on them.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633723
04/17/17 01:19 PM
04/17/17 01:19 PM
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Oceansounds Offline OP
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Based on the es110 announcement post and other forums, not a single person said they got a es110 with perfect key spacing. That's seems more than just a bad patch as it has been a few months since the release yet the issue still persists. Or it could be a sampling error...

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...nnounces_ES110_ultra-po.html#Post2602745

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633766
04/17/17 03:23 PM
04/17/17 03:23 PM
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I just received an ES110. I suppose you might think there are key spacing issues if the fact that a few "key spaces" are a few human hairs wider than others. But there's absolutely nothing egregious, or that would give me pause. (I could be wrong - I'm not home right now - but I don't think the key spacing on my acoustic grand would pass perfection if we took a micrometer to it.)

Look - if this is something that's going to bug the daylights out of a prospective buyer, then he/she should probably choose a different brand/model. But if one is simply worried that less-than-military-precision key spacing signifies quality issues in other areas or presents a long-term reliability risk - my own conclusion is that it's not a big deal. YMMV.

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Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633771
04/17/17 03:30 PM
04/17/17 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Oceansounds
Based on the es110 announcement post and other forums, not a single person said they got a es110 with perfect key spacing. That's seems more than just a bad patch as it has been a few months since the release yet the issue still persists. Or it could be a sampling error...

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...nnounces_ES110_ultra-po.html#Post2602745


As you note, that is misuse of statistics.

It is reasonable to assume people with es110 issues will post here much more frequently than those with no issues. We can't test that assumption.

Obviously, the best option is to visit a local store or have a friend visit a local store and check out the keyboard you want.

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: newer player] #2633772
04/17/17 03:36 PM
04/17/17 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by newer player
[Obviously, the best option is to visit a local store or have a friend visit a local store and check out the keyboard you want.

That's an advantage of buying locally... you can examine the board before you walk out with it.

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633807
04/17/17 04:46 PM
04/17/17 04:46 PM
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pwl Offline
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I checked out the ES110 locally prior to ordering online (it was being shipped to the opposite coast - not practical to buy locally - and I've bought from this local store previously, so no guilt). I'd say the ES110 I received is essentially identical to the one I viewed locally.

PS: I was impressed with Kawai's packaging, which has been a source of concern with some models.

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633868
04/17/17 07:50 PM
04/17/17 07:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hello Oceansounds, welcome to the forum.

It's true that a handful of ES110 customers have expressed concerns regarding slightly inconsistent key spacing on their piano in the announcement thread. Given the large number of ES110 instruments shipped since the product's released, this number is actually relatively low, however those cases have been investigated to ensure the keyboard action arrives in the best possible condition.

If you prefer the ES110's action and sound to competing models, and you are able to purchase the instrument locally, I believe it may well be possible to inspect the product before parting with your money.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633877
04/17/17 08:04 PM
04/17/17 08:04 PM
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Oceansounds Offline OP
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Hmm, perhaps I've been overhyped by the other people about the key spacing.

I was at a local dealership and they had a Kawai cn25 on sale for $1500 cad (new). How does that compare to the es110 $1000 cad price tag? How does the new Responsive Hammer Compact Action (es110) with the Responsive Hammer III (cn25)? 5-year warranty compared to the 3 years of es110 is also appealing. But is it worth the $500 extra.

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633882
04/17/17 08:12 PM
04/17/17 08:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,830
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Oceansounds,

The ES110's RHC action is essentially a more compact version of the CN25's RHIII action, however the latter includes additional features such as 'Ivory Touch' key surfaces, let-off, and utilises triple sensor hammer detection. The CN25's piano sound engine is superior to that of the ES110 (PHI vs HI), while the larger cabinet allows for more powerful speakers.

The ES110 is a very good instrument for the price, however if you do not require portability and you're willing to spend a little more, the CN25 is an excellent proposition at just $500 extra.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633887
04/17/17 08:20 PM
04/17/17 08:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
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Europe
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I think the differences are pretty obvious: One is a full console with a much heavier action, the other one is a slab. However the current model is the CN27, ask for that.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633889
04/17/17 08:22 PM
04/17/17 08:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,830
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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JoeT, I expect the dealer is offer the CN25 at a reduced price due to the arrival of the CN27.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633928
04/17/17 09:37 PM
04/17/17 09:37 PM
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Oceansounds Offline OP
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Ya, he said that they have a bunch of CN25 stocked up and have new orders of CN27s arriving thus the reduce in price.

James, would you say that CN25 is an intermediate DP? I'd prefer not to outgrow it in the coming years.

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633946
04/17/17 10:37 PM
04/17/17 10:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,830
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by Oceansounds
James, would you say that CN25 is an intermediate DP? I'd prefer not to outgrow it in the coming years.


Yes, I believe the CN25 is suitable for intermediate players, and beyond. I doubt you would outgrow the instrument for a number of years.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633968
04/18/17 12:19 AM
04/18/17 12:19 AM
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Oceansounds Offline OP
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Thanks James. I do have another question regarding the differences between the cn25 and the newly released cn27, based on the specs you posted:

CN27
New: Shigeru Kawai SK-EX concert grand sounds
New: Kawai K-60 upright piano sound
New: Bluetooth MIDI connectivity
New: Virtual Technician 'Smart Mode' (same as CS11/CS8, CA97/CA67)
New: 3 digit LED display
New: Spatial Headphone Sound, Phones Type functions (same as CS11/CS8, CA97/CA67)
New: Modern cabinet design (tapered leg, minimal toeblock)
New: 1/4" and 1/8" headphone connectors
Improved: More powerful Virtual Technician 'Advanced Mode' (9 parameters --> 17 parameters), iOS app required for individual parameter adjustment

I take it that the core functionalities are still the same i.e. key action, sampling, sound in general. The CN27 mainly offers more quality of life upgrades and some new piano sounds?

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2633984
04/18/17 02:30 AM
04/18/17 02:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by Oceansounds
I take it that the core functionalities are still the same i.e. key action, sampling, sound in general.


Yes, the core RHIII action and PHI sound specification are the same, however the CN27 features new piano sounds and a much more powerful Virtual Technician (which also influences the core piano sound).

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2634074
04/18/17 11:04 AM
04/18/17 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Oceansounds
Based on basically everyone who got a es110, they all had key spacing issue, some had sticky keys, others had straight up malfunctioning keys. Just based on that it seems like key spacing issue is a design choice/flaw that exists in all es110 (varying in severity).


Not in my case. Received my ES110 several weeks ago. The action has a very good medium/light touch (I am a conservatory trained pianist). No sticky or malfunctioning keys. Key spacing is fine also. While there might be one or two keys that might be very slightly closer/farther to each if measured with a micrometer, there is nothing that stands out and the spacing is as good or better than many other, especially acoustic, pianos that I have played.

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2634080
04/18/17 11:24 AM
04/18/17 11:24 AM
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Minnesota, U.S.
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I think if you have the money, get that CN25. I have a CN35. If you're only or primarily playing piano (vs. the bazillion sounds I've never ever used on the 35) the only significant difference between the two are the CN35s two extra speakers. When I look at the new CN 27/37 models, the only thing that seems significant to me is the new SK-EX concert grand sound. But not having it, I don't miss it. In my opinion the piano sound is limited more by mediocre speakers (not picking on Kawai here--I was unpleasantly surprised by the speakers on all comparable models by other manufacturers too) than by the sound samples or engine. I don't believe the new models have upgraded speakers. Even so, the piano sounds nice live and very nice through headphones.

As for outgrowing it, I don't see that happening ever due to my skills. If you look online you can easily find clips of people far better than most of us will ever hope to be, playing just fine on these models.

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2634081
04/18/17 11:39 AM
04/18/17 11:39 AM
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I have no problems with the key spacing on my new ES110. I looked at a video someone posted here that showed what they considered spacing issues. I mean no disrespect to the poster, but I've played piano my whole life and really couldn't see the issue in the video. I also looked over at my very high quality upright and saw what could be considered slight differences in key spacing, but I've never noticed anything when playing.

Re: Kawai es100/110 quality control [Re: Oceansounds] #2634084
04/18/17 11:48 AM
04/18/17 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Oceansounds
James, would you say that CN25 is an intermediate DP? I'd prefer not to outgrow it in the coming years.


What does outgrow mean to you? These are not bicycle training wheels or more appropriately, cheap toy instruments meant to be disposable.

Each of the instruments mentioned here (ES100/110, FP-30, etc.) are capable of professional use (gig, recording, etc.) depending on the application. Pianists, if they persevere and progress, will usually acquire a collection of instruments (as do guitarists, wind players, etc.). Beginners seem to think that as they get better they will outgrow whatever they have. While this may be true for really cheap introductory instruments, it is not the case with the instruments discussed here.

While I have played professionally for many years and have/had many keyboards, the ES110 fits my needs as a light (26 lbs), easily transportable, fully-weighted, graded, full (88 key) keyboard with decent sounds and a great action that lets me play most if not all my classical repertoire as well as any blues, jazz or pop I want. For a solo classical piano concert I would certainly prefer a 9' concert grand but that does not mean that I would "outgrow" my ES110 or any of the other DPs mentioned here.

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