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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2631157 04/08/17 05:02 AM
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Thought I would comment in this thread again. I ended up getting a used Grantouch instead of waiting to see the Kawai NV10 or waiting for another used N1 to pop up, since it's much less money. It'll be delivered to the corner of my apartment soon to accompany the Roland.

The Grantouch does not have sympathetic resonance or continuous una corda pedal input, so it does sound a little unnatural compared to more modern digital pianos. Action wise, I thought it felt very similar to the N1. They both have the same "issue" which is that the sensor seems to activate a tiny bit higher than where the hammer would be hitting the strings on a real piano, meaning it is not as sensitive as a real piano to keys being lightly brushed. This is good in that you need to press down with authority to get a sound, and bad in the sense that it will not forgive you for an almost-fully-pressed correct note as that note will simply disappear.

The non-continuous una corda was a bummer at first, but I realized a real piano's tone usually changes a lot when you press that pedal so I can think of this as being my practice piano for live performances where I sit down cold and start playing without knowledge of how the una corda influences the tone, aka performances where I only put the pedal all the way down on rare occasions.

The key pivot length is noticeably short, but it works and I was able to successfully play further up the keys despite the touch weight being rather heavy. It has been a long time since I played a baby grand piano but I assume that is where they got the keyboard from. All in all, the action's performance is very good. I may have a technician try to adjust it a bit so the sensors can be triggered earlier, but after adapting to it, it plays well and feels close to a real piano.

This piano has a pretty poor dynamic range. I kind of recall the N1 having some of that problem though maybe not as bad, while the N2 and N3 did a bit better. Perhaps it was just psychological or perhaps I just don't recall accurately. As is, I am not happy with the way it sounds so I will get a MIDI controller and Pianoteq and try and tweak some things.

Last edited by trigalg693; 04/08/17 05:04 AM.
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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2631211 04/08/17 09:41 AM
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How much was the Grantouch if you don't mind me asking? At the right price I certainly would consider it a purchase solely for the action to run with a software piano--essentially a VPC-1 on steroids.


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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2631243 04/08/17 11:11 AM
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The principle of the una corda is to strike 2 strings and not 3. It is difficult to have a continuons unacorda. (We can' strike 2.3 strings).

However, a slight push on the una corda makes the hammer strike on a less compact zone of the hammer, it could change the tone, but it is not the way it should function.


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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2631249 04/08/17 11:39 AM
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Una Corda = 1 string Due Corda = 2 strings Tre Corda = 3 strings wink


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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: Gombessa] #2631251 04/08/17 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
How much was the Grantouch if you don't mind me asking? At the right price I certainly would consider it a purchase solely for the action to run with a software piano--essentially a VPC-1 on steroids.


I think a GT in little used condition for controlling software is almost as good as it gets. The onboard sounds are more or less past it. I have an idea it was 88 key sampling but single velocity layer. Yamaha had some sort of method for endowing it with a vaguely believable sense of timbral change with rising velocity. Probably quite clever in its day but really not competitive with even entry level stuff these days.

GT1 had a fixed (closed) lid. GT2 had an opening lid. Both with adapted grand piano action. GT10 - upright style cabinet and used an adapted Yamaha upright action.

I had a GT2 and enjoyed it at the time. Memory can play tricks but I never got the impression the AG action was superior at all, although they certainly did make changes for the AG's implementation of the action.


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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2631253 04/08/17 11:58 AM
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Una corda is a bit of a redundant term for modern pianos. Most modern grand pianos will shift the action sufficiently that 2 strings are hit instead of 3 and, more importantly, that those two strings are hit by the softer ungrooved felt.

The actual dynamics of modelling a continuous soft pedal would be quite tricky to do properly, I'm not sure repeatly striking the edge of the grooves on the hammers is a good thing for hammer condition and life either.

Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2631307 04/08/17 03:35 PM
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I only paid 1200 dollars (+ a few hundred more for moving), it was a total steal. It did have a little damage to the case and it is very old (2004 model I think), but...who cares, it works. Saves some money to invest in a good MIDI controller and Pianoteq (maybe another old laptop dedicated to running that).

I know what una corda means and what it does... On digital pianos today you can plug a continuous pedal into the "una corda" port and it will not change the tone much if you rest your foot on it and depress it slightly. On a real piano with newer hammers, sometimes you get a subtle transition as you press the una corda pedal down, and there is an interesting spectrum of tones you can get with the pedal at different positions. When there are grooves worn into the hammers, then the tone transition is much more...interesting.

The reason I would prefer a continuous pedal on a digital piano is because the spring on the pedal doesn't have the same resistance as a real piano so it is easy to accidentally depress it and trigger the alternate tone. That's something I can learn to deal with, no problem.

Last edited by trigalg693; 04/08/17 03:38 PM.
Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2631388 04/08/17 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by trigalg693
I only paid 1200 dollars (+ a few hundred more for moving), it was a total steal.


Wow, deal of the century I'd say. If I saw that offered, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by trigalg693
On digital pianos today you can plug a continuous pedal into the "una corda" port and it will not change the tone much if you rest your foot on it and depress it slightly.

The reason I would prefer a continuous pedal on a digital piano is because the spring on the pedal doesn't have the same resistance as a real piano so it is easy to accidentally depress it and trigger the alternate tone. That's something I can learn to deal with, no problem.


On some DPs (and I assume software pianos), you can adjust the "dead spot" where pressing the pedal slightly doesn't start sustaining the notes. Kawai even uses the "resting your foot on it" example in its documentation.



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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2632245 04/11/17 05:23 PM
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I managed to open the cover and take a look at the action. To my pleasant surprise, the repetition lever and jack are plastic instead of wood, and the hammers are a single piece of plastic attached to the end of the wooden shank. The foam pad that the hammers hit is a neoprene like substance that is a little bouncy, as opposed to the usual thick felt pads which might absorb too much momentum from the hammer. Even more surprising, the buckskin parts were practically new, and the felt is still nice and tight, so I seem to have struck gold. I think the let-off needs a little bit of adjustment but otherwise it feels great.

After studying the optical sensors I decided that moving the sensor rail down slightly would make the response a little more realistic, and it worked like a charm. I ordered a MIDI to USB adapter and will try it with Pianoteq when that gets here. The built in sounds are really dreadful.

Last edited by trigalg693; 04/11/17 05:25 PM.
Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2632403 04/12/17 10:05 AM
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I always wondered why people having enough money to buy Yamaha N1, Roland V-Piano Grand or Kawai CP-1 don't just buy real pianos with silent technology instead of digitals? Especially if you care so much about touch. For example, http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/silentpianos/

And, as far as I know, thise devices can be bought separately and adjusted to acoustic piano you already have.


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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2632404 04/12/17 10:05 AM
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Because even the best silent solutions still alter the feel both in digital and acoustic mode. The travel of the hammers is affected.

Last edited by Goss; 04/12/17 10:06 AM.

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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2632405 04/12/17 10:13 AM
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@PianoStartsAt33

a U1 is fantastic, but it is an upright action. The N1 is close to a real grand action -- think faster and
easier repeats, trills, tremolos. That said the U1 has a better headphone sound than the N1.


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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: augustm] #2632406 04/12/17 10:23 AM
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Nevertheless, it's all the question of skill, I guess...
Look at Lisitsa at this video - when did she sit at the old upright for the last time before this))?


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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2632422 04/12/17 10:59 AM
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@PianoStartAt33: I am probably a future client of the N1 (or the N1X, since the time I spare money, it could be replaced).

I use roughly my piano 1 hour per week with its speakers. The remaining of the time is with headphones.

Because of this use, the main criteria are the keyboard and the electronic tone generator... and the price.

If I want an high-end Silent (seen from the tone generator), I may be tempted by the Yamaha P116... but it is more expensive than the Yamaha N1.

The other way is a Yamaha B1 SG2. Less expensive than the N1, but inferior keyboard, and an inferior sound generator I would have to replace by a virtual piano.

I can't argue about the other digital pianos (V-Piano, CP-1), since they have a more usual keyboard.


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Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: trigalg693] #2632488 04/12/17 03:44 PM
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Silent systems are not quite the same as the real thing either. In fact, I thought the N1 played a little bit better than a Yamaha C5X in the same store equipped with a silent system.

The reason you buy one of these expensive digital pianos is to save space, while still getting a good action, and being able to plug in headphones and avoid tuning. Sure, you can buy a Samick grand piano for less money but their actions are not great.

Re: High performance digital pianos (GP300 vs N1) [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2632526 04/12/17 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
I always wondered why people having enough money to buy Yamaha N1, Roland V-Piano Grand or Kawai CP-1 don't just buy real pianos with silent technology instead of digitals? Especially if you care so much about touch. For example, http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/silentpianos/

And, as far as I know, thise devices can be bought separately and adjusted to acoustic piano you already have.

I would love to have a quality upright, K500 or U1 derivative, but I don't have the space and position that is either out of the sun or away from heating or other environmental concerns. I don't want a lesser piano, and then have the trouble with the lower sound and action quality and it always being out of tune.

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