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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: alphonsus] #2630294 04/05/17 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by alphonsus
[quote=kapelli]
They might know something about what customers want, since they sell more digital pianos than any of the aforementioned other manufacturers.


Generally answering to your post.
I know what is market segmentation, but Yamaha is doing it differently than it's competition.

Question now should be: who is stupid? Yamaha or Kawai, Roland and Casio?
I agree that Roland philosophy may not be good, but... people are still buying LX17 and are no one complaines.

Regarding sales number, surely Yamaha is selling the most pianos. But this is not due to the fact of their pianos being better than all others, but due to the fact that there are Yamaha pianos in each shop, while to find Kawai and Roland top pianos is hard. Also, Yamaha is putting much more effort into their marketing than perhaps all others put together.

At least, this is situation with pianos availability in Poland.

Besides, I was never satisfied with Yamaha pianos - never couldn't find myself to integrate with them, so maybe I shouldn't complain as they are somehow besides my scope of interest wink

Nevertheless I will be happy to try the new 675.
Good this is improved speaker system (6 speakers instead of 4), and due to open space at the top of the lip perhaps they will sound less boxy than 500 series.

We will see. I decided to buy the piano after currect Musikmesse and Yamaha came into the play once again.

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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: Pete14] #2630295 04/05/17 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I love it how one of the demonstrators points out that 'a lot of research' went into developing the escapement. He makes it sound as if there's a real escapement mechanism in there, and not, as we all know, a clicking little thingy that probably cost Yamaha a penny to make.




Who knows, maybe they took a model with themselves to the Messe? I think this is the only manufacturer which is shy of showing it's action. I don't like it, because that means that they have something to hide.

I just hope, it will not be another GH iteration, as all Yamaha actions are just GH based and developed models. And that hammer is real and not bended piece of metal wire...

Last edited by kapelli; 04/05/17 04:45 AM.
Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630298 04/05/17 04:56 AM
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I agree with kapelli. Yamaha sells more pianos due to stronger brand recognition.
Some people think that "Kawai" is a tropical island, yet when you say Yamaha, even a non-musician says "piano!"

They definitely couldn't care less what customers truly want. They impose through aggressive, hyperbolic marketing, and people fall for it.

Yes, they're in the business of making money, but so is Roland and Kawai; and somehow, R and K seem to make ends meet whislt still truly innovating, and perhaps, every once in a while, giving customers what they want.

Have you heard of the Novus?

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630303 04/05/17 05:13 AM
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Kapelli, Pete14 - I hear what you are saying. I agree that they are helped massively by their superior distribution. However - i actually give them credit for it. It's great that I can go to a music store nearby and try out all the Clavinovas any time I want. Can you blame people for wanting to try out an expensive instrument before buying it? I find it strange to condemn Yamaha for their strong distribution and marketing instead of calling on Kawai and Roland to up their game.

Also - if everyone says "piano" when they hear Yamaha - perhaps they deserve some credit for that.

Originally Posted by Pete14
They definitely couldn't care less what customers truly want. They impose through aggressive, hyperbolic marketing, and people fall for it.


Now that's something I absolutely disagree with, and find it a bit condescending. I have spent many hours in music stores over the past few months, and have played nearly all DPs at length from all the major manufacturers, and my own personal subjective opinion is that Yamaha pianos are head and shoulders above anything else but Kawai. Kawai make great products, I like them a little better than their Yamaha counterparts, but they are held back by their poor availability, distribution, and support.


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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630306 04/05/17 05:30 AM
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I just realized that there is indeed an island named "Kauai." Although the spelling is different, I now understand why people mistake it for Kawai.

Regarding my 'hyperbolic' comment, you are right, it is a gross exaggeration, but I still hate Yamaha!

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630309 04/05/17 05:58 AM
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This thread has moved far off course, eh?

The central takeaway is the same this time as it was last time: "Yamaha has a new line of pianos ... largely indistinguishable from the old line". Deafeningly unimpressive.

Mitsubishi had "zoom zoom zoom". Now Yamaha has "VRM VRM VRM". Woweee.

And counterweights? Yippee.

When are they going to feature "feels and sounds like a piano"? That would be refreshing.

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630310 04/05/17 06:21 AM
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....... don't forget, escapement (it seems that 'much research' went into this feature), it must be great!

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630311 04/05/17 06:21 AM
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Hard not to agree.
Based on the instrument photos, i assume that GT action is folded one again...

Otherwise they would show it to us, right? smile

Last edited by kapelli; 04/05/17 06:23 AM.
Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: kapelli] #2630313 04/05/17 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by kapelli

Who knows, maybe they took a model with themselves to the Messe? I think this is the only manufacturer which is shy of showing it's action. I don't like it, because that means that they have something to hide.

I just hope, it will not be another GH iteration, as all Yamaha actions are just GH based and developed models. And that hammer is real and not bended piece of metal wire...


From the sounds of it (where wood is used it's only for the white keys) even the newer grandtouch is probably GH based, just longer keys.

Re the bent wire, to be fair it does the job, a weight at the other end is a weight after all, and I'd imagine makes it very easy to have linear grading across the keyboard rather than just zones since you just chop a bit more/less off the end.

It's not necessarily very efficient in terms of weight though and looks butt ugly and cheap which is probably why they don't show it. smile

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630330 04/05/17 08:01 AM
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Apart from introducing completely new product lines aren't the "small incremental improvements" what everybody does?

- Roland RP-401R to RP-501R: They added Bluetooth and changed the speakers from oval to round
- Kawai CN-25 to CN-27: They changed the UI a bit, added the virtual technician presets and added Bluetooth
- Etc.

For example the cheapest Clavinova got the Bösendorfer sound, the binaural CFX sound, stereophonic optimizer for headphone use, round speakers instead of oval, string resonance, escapement, a few centimeters more height and music braces to keep your music book open.

That's a lot and now it competes better with Kawai CN-27. (Unless you want the virtual technician...)

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2630338 04/05/17 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Apart from introducing completely new product lines aren't the "small incremental improvements" what everybody does?


I agree - Yamaha gets a lot of hate on this forum, maybe because they are a big corporation. The mocking started right at the beginning, with MacMacMac's "hilarious" post with the fins and chrome strips. Also lots of comments on how non-innovative Yamaha are - but what are all the innovative features of the competition that Yamaha doesn't have? I don't get it...

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

- Kawai CN-25 to CN-27: They changed the UI a bit, added the virtual technician presets and added Bluetooth
- Etc.

To be fair they added the Shigeru SK sound (and also a K60 upright sound) which is a big update in my book.


Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

For example the cheapest Clavinova got the Bösendorfer sound, the binaural CFX sound, stereophonic optimizer for headphone use, round speakers instead of oval, string resonance, escapement, a few centimeters more height and music braces to keep your music book open.

That's a lot and now it competes better with Kawai CN-27. (Unless you want the virtual technician...)


That's a good point! I wasn't paying much attention to the 625 but that's a significant update.

In my opinion the -35 and -45 models got little update of importance. The 535 was let down by its speakers (in my opinion) and the 635 does nothing to change that - the CN37 sounds far better. The 545 is pretty good but the 645 adds not much to that.

By the way, what is this new binaural CFX sampling? Am I right in assuming this only has relevance for headphones listening?


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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630340 04/05/17 08:48 AM
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I don't mind a folded action I'm really not convinced they have to be inferior. But I do want to see it! Is the picot point extended an inch? 2 inches? Is it the same pivot for the black keys?

There was a lot noise about pivot lengths between Roland's PHA-IV Standard versus PHA-IV Concert. I'm kind of surprised that there isn't more curiosity around the new action...


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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: alphonsus] #2630342 04/05/17 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by alphonsus

I agree - Yamaha gets a lot of hate on this forum, maybe because they are a big corporation. The mocking started right at the beginning, with MacMacMac's "hilarious" post with the fins and chrome strips. Also lots of comments on how non-innovative Yamaha are - but what are all the innovative features of the competition that Yamaha doesn't have? I don't get it...


It's not hate because they are big Corporation, but what they are offering and how does it compare to it’s competitors. When the 500 series was introduced, they were the best piano series on the market. But soon after Kawai and Roland introduced their new lines and Yamaha went to the last place. Kawai (and even somehow Roland) has far inferior design in their lineup – something what was fine 10 years ago, not too much now. But their action is still undoubtedly the best. Casio is on pair, Roland similar, but due to being folded and made of plastic it’s noisier and not so subtle. Kawai has best sound system. 12cm speakers in piano costing price of HP605 is kind of joke.

Nevertheless, None of the piano besides Yamaha sound like sound muffling in closed wooden box and it’s all mixed. Their actions and keytops are the worst among all piano manufacturers (K,R,C). While I think that they have the best offer in up to 1000 USD mark, they in the upper line competition is better in all respecgt. One may not love Roland sound, but it’s realism is something, that is impossible for Yamaha. Kawai has it’s soundboard, which for an experienced player gives a lot. But unfortunately their bass notes are made bad – too much boomines and no clarite. Middle and highs are excellent. I can’t stand Yamaha middle and high – it’s too muffled and Yamahas were never sounding properly voiced to my expectation – something never noticed in other pianos.

Yamaha pianos are below the middle, but their mediocrity is equal is all aspects. All competitors have one thing which is years ahed of Yamaha, but also have something what is more equally do in Yamaha pianos. Roland engine lacks a bit of substance and harmonics, but it’s playability is like a real piano. Kawai GFII, even it’s bit slow, is an extreme pleasure to play. Casio action is great to play and feel as well.

All above is just my point of view on digital piano market in general. Each company has something in their design, what is done bad on a simple base (bass in Kawai, sound system in Roland HP605 and LX7, too harsh samples in Casio GP pianos, Yamaha “the same for 20 years”).

Improvements are always things of small steps, however, while for K,R and C these are normal steps, for Yamaha they are as minimal as possible. I found enjoyment playing Kawai, Roland and Casio, liking or disliking some things. Never found enjoyment in playing Clavinova, despite the fact that there is nothing bad, but also nothing to be especially happy about. And, the worst thing is, that they are more than enough resources, to do it much better.

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: Gombessa] #2630343 04/05/17 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I don't mind a folded action I'm really not convinced they have to be inferior. But I do want to see it! Is the picot point extended an inch? 2 inches? Is it the same pivot for the black keys?

There was a lot noise about pivot lengths between Roland's PHA-IV Standard versus PHA-IV Concert. I'm kind of surprised that there isn't more curiosity around the new action...


Because everybody knows what to expect from Yahama smile
and we have to wait for some opinions, instruments in the store and films from Messe.

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630344 04/05/17 09:05 AM
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Concerning CLP-685 and CLP-585 speakers, it's now 50W x 3 against 30W x 3 but it appears that CLP-685 does not have any speaker box...


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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: alphonsus] #2630345 04/05/17 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by alphonsus
To be fair they added the Shigeru SK sound (and also a K60 upright sound) which is a big update in my book.


I knew I forgot something. The upright was a nice addition. It's kind of rare except for more expensive models for some strange reason.

Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: alphonsus] #2630347 04/05/17 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by alphonsus
By the way, what is this new binaural CFX sampling? Am I right in assuming this only has relevance for headphones listening?
Yes, your assumption should be right. I don't think it would really work through the speaker system.


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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630351 04/05/17 09:26 AM
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The binaural cfx is what is used in the U1 silent. If is is comparable here, it is fantastic. I would have
bought last year a yamaha digital with this if only.... Giant update for practicing...

Not putting
this sound on the digitals was what I thought the very very worst of Yamaha segmentation. They have had it for
years, but only on real instruments, yet this is one of the reasons you buy a digital


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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: kapelli] #2630356 04/05/17 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by kapelli

...Yamaha pianos are below the middle, but their mediocrity is equal is all aspects. All competitors have one thing which is years ahed of Yamaha, ....


Kapelli, that's a very long post, but I still don't really understand how you can make the above statement with any sort of objectivity. You make lots of subjective observations, such as X's touch is the best, and Y's sound is the best, etc. You have every right to hold such an opnion but cannot state it as fact, or to say one is "years ahead of the other". For example the fact Roland chooses modelled sound instead of sampling, is not years ahead of the others, is merely a choice. (Perhaps if Roland had been making grand pianos for 130 years they'd be using sampling :P). There are many things that can be measured objectively (like polyphony, no. of sensors in a key, no. of sounds, no. of speakers, whether certain feature is present or not, etc.) and I just don't see how on those points you can say Yamaha (or any other of the top 3) is years ahead of the other.
Also this comment of "same for 20 years". In 2014, so only three years ago, they added CFX and Bösendorfer samples, the first company to have two famous grand pianos in one (Kawai followed the lead a year later with Shigeru), they added physical modelling to the samples (VRM), they brought a new action (NWX), etc. How is that "same for 20 years"? You have every right to not like Yamaha, but please be aware that is your subjective opinion. Or please make a bulletpoint summary of the objective specifications/features that they are "years behind" the competition.


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Re: Yamaha CLP-600 series release date? [Re: m1ch4L] #2630358 04/05/17 09:52 AM
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