2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Advanced Piano Tricks
Advanced Piano Tricks
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
89 members (36251, Blague, Animisha, Beemer, Anglagard44, anotherscott, aphexdisklavier, 18 invisible), 993 guests, and 390 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,506
Founder - Owner - Host
6000 Post Club Member
Online Blank
Founder - Owner - Host
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,506
Good points made by all.

turandot, I understand what you're saying about piano being more of a "solo" instrument. But it doesn't have to be.
Like you, I grew up with music in our house. My father and sister both played piano, and a local rock group sometimes practiced in our living room.

I first learned piano because I wanted to play in a rock band. Practice was at my house (the other parents didn't want to suffer through it).

So I had plenty of interaction with my bandmates, and actually did go on to play out professionaly.

Although a lot of folks on the forums probably play their pianos as a solo instrument at home, it doesn't have to be.

There is no reason (other than shyness) not to invite friends who play other instruments over to play along with you.

And as I point out in our Press Release , piano forums parties are a great way to share your love of music and of playing the piano.

I agree school bands are a great way to introduce kids to music, but the weak link here is usually the parents. They need to encourage their kids to play, and support their practice, lessons, instrument rentals, etc.

The NAMM organization promotes a program called Wanna Play?

It's focus is spreading the word about the fun, educational, and even health benefits of making music.

Check out the Wanna Play? section of their web site, pretty interesting (and lots of resources).

As a member (or guest) of these piano forums, you have already demonstrated that you have an interest in making music.
Share that interest with somebody, encourage them to take up an instrument (any instrument), tell them how much fun it is to play, and that getting started isn't as difficult as they might think.

The AOPA (Airplane Owners & Pilots Association) has a program called "Project Pilot". The idea is that anybody with a pilots certificate is a potential ambassador for recruiting new pilots.

They do this by offering to take people up for a flight, to show them how much fun it is, and that while there is certainly a learning curve, it's worth it.

Take someone for a test flight of your piano today!


- Frank B.
Founder / Owner / Host
PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Maple Street Music Shop
Find Us On:
Facebook.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.youtube.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.linkedin.com/in/pianoworld
Skype: PianoWorldDotCom
My Keyboards:
Estonia L-190, Yamaha P-80, Harpsichord (kit), Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, 2 - Antique Pump Organs, 1850 concertina
-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
Please invite every piano enthusiast you know to join our piano forums!


Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 365
mjs Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 365
My 2 cents:

OK - all of this relates to growing up in Germany, but then I think it still applies.

The piano teacher I had until about 10 years ago was very eager that her better students (she didn't take on that many in total) would play piano 4-hands - in my opinion an invaluable experience. You have interaction with other people and you have a vast repertoire at your fingertips. Almost all of the literature written for orchestra up to the 1920's as at some stage ben transcribed for piano duett. We played things ranging from "Rhapsody in Blue" over "Till Eulenspiegel" to "Sheherazade". Obviously, this is more work for everyone involved, but also the beginners seemed to enjoy playing their little duets of even trios (piano 6-hands ...). So piano playing and learning does not HAVE to be a lonely excercise.

Interestingly, when our house was still being built, we got talking to our future (and now present) neighbour while insepcting the site. We soon realised that we both played the piano, and shortly after we had moved in, she arrived with some music and the thought that we should make music together -- we haven't had time to pursue it yet, but it will be great fun.

Another thing I'd like to do is find people to do some chamber music - as much as I love playing the piano myself, I enjoy playing in a group as well.

Markus


Steingraeber D-232 # 45 777
Neupert Telemann harpsichord
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 35
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 35
This issue of the lonely piano player really resonates. In my own life, I found myself in my teenage years doing much more singing than piano playing because of the social aspect, and the opportunity to make music in a group.

In high school I had the chance to play piano in the jazz band, but years of classical playing did not prepare me well for quick jazz improvisation. It was a struggle. The other kids had been playing together in the school band since elementary school.

I like the idea of building a social aspect and rock/jazz into piano lessons. This kind of teaching could certainly make piano more attractive for kids.

My own kids have been playing in the school band and orchestra since elementary school. (They are now in 8th grade.) And they participate in soccer and basketball. We try to maintain a balance--music is important, but if you sit for hours and practice, sports are important for your physical health.

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 59
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 59
The need to be social is very strong in many kids/teenagers. In order to keep the piano interesting and relevant for them, I agree that you have to go beyond the traditional model of the solo pianist.
We are lucky to have a teacher that understands this. Recently he made the effort to connect our child with another child who needed a piano accompanist for her flute recital. The girls got along famously, share a similar work ethic, and now are busy working towards the next event. It has been a great opportunity for my daughter to develop the ability to listen to the other player, and to take a background role when necessary.
When my daughter was younger, she attended Suzuki institutes, which are one-week summer camps in which children who all play the same repertoire come together and take master classes, attend group classes with games, and hang out with other kids who play the same instrument. People have very strong opinions one way or the other about the Suzuki method, but encouraging group playing and making games out of practice makes it very fun for younger kids especially.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
Thunder,

Sounds great that the kids could get together.

I was a lonely child pianist for several years until I discovered a few friends as a sophmore who were at my level of playing and we shared pieces with each other.

Although, I must say, I did like the solitude of playing for myself. I could get lost in the music all alone and it became my companion.

LL


"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,506
Founder - Owner - Host
6000 Post Club Member
Online Blank
Founder - Owner - Host
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,506
This NAMM sponsored web site ... http://www.themusicedge.com/ is one of their attempts to get more kids interested in playing music, and playing together.

Check out the Wanna Play? web site for other ideas.


- Frank B.
Founder / Owner / Host
PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Maple Street Music Shop
Find Us On:
Facebook.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.youtube.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.linkedin.com/in/pianoworld
Skype: PianoWorldDotCom
My Keyboards:
Estonia L-190, Yamaha P-80, Harpsichord (kit), Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, 2 - Antique Pump Organs, 1850 concertina
-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
Please invite every piano enthusiast you know to join our piano forums!


Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 243
K
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 243
The dealer I work for was a Piano /Organ only dealer for many years.

He had the vision to see the decline in sales of both and expanded successfully to a full line MI and sheet music dealer. We have hundreds of guitars on the walls,drums, 12 baby grands on the floor, (10 under 5"3). 1 grand over 6' (still crated for the past year.) 6 new uprights and all the digital Keybords from Yamaha and a few Kurtzweil.

He found the $5000-$10,000 grand piano market to be the bread and butter in new piano sales. Uprights dead, Used uprights very much dead as digitals are much better choices for $1500-3000.

It has served him well as stores all around are closing their doors who clung to piano only rooms, I sense he felt in a few cases their egos would not allow them to submit to market forces and become full line MI dealers. They carried more expensive brands hoping fewer sales would bring larger profit.

Rather then make "value" judgments and try to "educate" the public why not just give them what THEY want? It works much better and takes a lot less effort and frustration.


Piano, pro audio,guitar and MI sales.
Yamaha, Pearl River, Bergmann, Remington.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,323
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,323
Will someone please explain to me what "MI" is?

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683
F
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
F
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683
turnadot posted
Quote
I think one of the problems with traditional piano lessons steeped in the classical piano repertoire is that kids don't relate to the music, and the piano as an instrument doesn't give kids much opportunity to relate to each other. Bands teach kids to know their role. Like sports there is a realization that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts,
Great points made in your post. Glad others are picking up on them.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 272
Silver Expires April 2010

Silver member until April 2010
Full Member
Offline
Silver Expires April 2010

Silver member until April 2010
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 272
Hey I work for an airline in engineering. We have so many acronyms that they start repeating. YIKES!

That said, I believe MI is "Musical Instrument" in this case.

But what's MDF (A few posts up the line)? Obviously a material used in certain types of pianos. But what?


** Bob ** M&H AA 92809 **
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683
F
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
F
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 272
Silver Expires April 2010

Silver member until April 2010
Full Member
Offline
Silver Expires April 2010

Silver member until April 2010
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 272
Ah...not moisture densified fruitwood.
Mildly delaminated firewood.
musically destined foam.

thanks FVL!


** Bob ** M&H AA 92809 **
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 243
K
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 243
Quote
Originally posted by turandot:
from Monica Kern
Quote
In other threads in the past, the issue of organized sports for children has been raised as one possible factor for the decline in piano purchases. Parents want to enrich their children's lives by including extracurricular activities, but the activity of choice appears increasingly to be organized sports, which (as any parent knows) can easily consume nearly all a family's discretionary time. Couple that with the decline of music education in the schools, and you have a recipe for families just not bothering to make piano (or any instrument) lessons a priority.
I think all of this is true. But school bands for middle schoolers and high schoolers seem to be flourishing in Southern California where I live. In fact, a lot of kids somehow manage to be in school athletics and school bands simultaneuously. A study I read cited statistics on the academic achievement of students involved in band as being higher than the general student population.

I think one of the problems with traditional piano lessons steeped in the classical piano repertoire is that kids don't relate to the music, and the piano as an instrument doesn't give kids much opportunity to relate to each other. Bands teach kids to know their role. Like sports there is a realization that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, that you have to depend on team members and be a complementary part of something that can be pretty exciting.

I grew up with piano lessons. Interaction with other kids musically was limited to seeing them arrive as I was leaving after a lesson, seeing them leave as I was arriving, or being part of recitals. I'm afraid it's the same today. That's why so many professional and amateur pianists are prima donnas who do not integrate easily into ensemble work. Often kids who do play and play exceptionally well are quiet loners. That was certainly true in my case. (the loner part / not the exceptionally well part). I didn't really come out of my shell until an electric keyboard got me into a garage band. My own kids studied piano a short while. When they wanted to change to band instruments I encouraged them. Piano taught them the fundamentals. Bands and ensembles gave them the chance to have fun.

You meet so many ADULTS who say "I took lessons for two years as a kid. I wish NOW I hadn't quit." Maybe the solitary pursuit of musical fulfillment at the keyboard is a better fit for adults and not such a great one for most kids.
What a great post. I can relate to the keyboard player loner part as well. (not me I started on a B-3 when I played in cover bands and learned from copying the parts from Santana,Deep Purple,James Gang, Humble Pie.) Many real studied piano players had a harder time in bands, especially those classically trained. There is so much discipline needed to learn to play the classics and today's kids have such short attention spans.

You really don't see or hear keyboards as much an integral part of todays most popular bands like the B-3 was.

My wife is classically trained and hates to play classical music yet has made her living her whole life playing keyboards for shows, piano bars and singles. She has played in one resort for the past 4 years. She was one of those who hated piano lessons but was forced to take them as a child. Thankful now she did.


Piano, pro audio,guitar and MI sales.
Yamaha, Pearl River, Bergmann, Remington.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 65
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 65
Quote
In high school I had the chance to play piano in the jazz band, but years of classical playing did not prepare me well for quick jazz improvisation. It was a struggle. The other kids had been playing together in the school band since elementary school.

I like the idea of building a social aspect and rock/jazz into piano lessons. This kind of teaching could certainly make piano more attractive for kids.
We're trying to address that very situation with our new teacher certification program that focuses on including some non-classical lead sheet based training along with the traditional classical training. The hopeful result will be a well-rounded student having a ball in a myriad of styles that will be less likely to quit.


Host and Co-Executive Producer of the 7 time Emmy award winning public television series: The Piano Guy
www.scotthouston.com www.playpianoinaflash.com
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683
F
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
F
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683
Scott, just posted re those materials in the Teachers Forum.

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,948
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,948
I would think the rise of recorded music (records, CDs) put an end to the need to have a piano in the home to have music in the home. I do not ever see pianos overcoming this basic fact of 20th century music technology.

Guitars are cheaper and smaller and more portable for playing regular music. They are also well suited for popular "folk" music versus less popular "art" music. Even those who want to play music and not just listen, do not need an acoustic piano.

Playing piano also takes a tremendous amount of time and effort, and has few monitary rewards even for people of significant talent and dedication.

All of this means that acoustic pianos played in the home will likely always remain a tiny niche activity.

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,757
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,757
The question was focussed on America. It may be true that it is the twilight.

I cannot comment on America, but in the UK I think there is a divide. If I look at the grass roots:

The state school sector, as far as I can see, generally appears to set very little store in teaching children about music. I am familiar with one local school that has about 400 pupils and two music teachers, of which one is part time. Both have to cover other subjetcs as well.

My son, almost 10, goes to a private school where I forget the number of pupils but it is less than 200 aged 7 to 13. They have a music and drama department that utilises several full time teachers (two of them at least have music doctorates and extensive performance experience) and a broad complement of 35 specialist music teachers when part time staff are added in. They have four grand pianos, several uprights and numerous digitals. Plus just about every other musical instrument you can think of that is commonly played in the West.

The stupid educational divide in this country means that the better off (and perhaps better educated) parents opt out of the woefully under-resourced state system and pay for private education. Kids emerge having experienced piano, guitar, violin etc and often having learnt to play one of them quite well. There are 13 year olds doing ABRSM grade 7 and 8 exams in piano, violin, flute, etc. ALL children sing, ALL take part in school musical events, and ALL are encouraged to perform. The contrast between state and private is staggering.

This at least leads to one segment of society having a broad musical appreciation. But it also means that the great majority of children in this country, those educated in the state sector, have minimal exposure to the potentially life enriching musical education. This does not bode well.

I live in the largest and probably wealthiest city in the UK outside London. Guildford. It now has precisely zero acoustic piano dealers. The demand has apparently vanished. (To be fair London is only an hour away). It is not just America that is seeing the twilight of acoustic piano?

However, from what we read on this forum, a vast number of pianos are being made in China. So piano music is presumably alive and well and living in China.

Kind regards

Adrian


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 40
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 40
I think the issue is one that we all know is a reality: Kids being the future of music and the market being discussed. Right now, our kids time is under attack from IM'ing, pc chat, playstation, sports and more sports....heck they need a palm pilot to organize their days. Kids want an immediate fix and gratification...why work at something that takes time and is hard????

In the same statement music funding in schools is down and I believe our nation's dedication to art is declining unless you think Britney Spears is art. I strive to be a virtuoso in guitar and I am now agressively attacking piano (and I will buy my first acoustic piano this year). As a kid, I would sit in my room for hours trying to learn a song or technique because I was driven and because the culture was there to encourage me (other guys were trying to shred and be the best as well....and we all wanted the title or an advanced knowledge of music). Today is hip hop garbage and techno nonsense mixed with protools and that makes me want to puke. Do our nations parents love the "art" of music and are they passing it to the kids?

I do and I am trying, however I could not get buy in from my 2 daughters who are still in school...very very disappointing and frustrating. I am encouraged that things are cyclical in history, so it is not a matter of if but when a generation will be hungry for piano, acoustic tone, "real" sound. May not be in our time gang...so get ready for some rocky roads.


Music Is My Passion, The Lord Is My Life
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 377
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 377
I'm the guy who began this thread, and have just read the great assortment of responses. A few comments.

One respondent said that "pianos are easy to move." Ours is just a mid-sized grand (5'8") but weighs approx. 800 lbs. A smaller upright might fit his description better, but is still not a feather.

As for popularizing the piano for younger players, bear in mind that many rock greats play their own pianos. Billy Joel and Elton John for two. To find as an example a new artist who is up and coming, consider the lead singer for "Five for Fighting." Plays his own piano accompanyment.

One interesting comment made by several is that the seeming diminution in piano ownership may be linked to a decline in the arts (or "culture") in general in this country. Maybe so.

It is slender consolation that universities and the education establishment provide a large market for piano sales and generate lots of lesson hours. and move a lot of expensive pianos out of showrooms. Universities make a cottage industry out of endeavors that have lost their popular appeal. They are often hopelessly out of touch.

For example, university English departments offer numerous courses in poetry, and have courses in contemporary poetry featuring poets no one (except the university faculty) has ever heard of. Even poets with some reputation sell just a few thousand books per release, most of them to libraries. The well-known poet Karl Shapiro used to say that contemporary poets have no audience -- and he was quoted as saying, "poetry is a flower that grew in England. They tried to take it to America, and it died on the way." Well, fine. The universities, in their little vacuum chamber, build whole academic departments around this hothouse plant.

It is the same with piano pedagogy. It will live on in academia, as well as in subsidized performances sponsored by arts organizations, presented in taxyayer-subsidized salons. This is a kind of hothouse. Instead . . .

Have ma wash the dishes and then come in to bang something out, or a coterie of friends gathered around an upright singing popular music of the time, or bars with a piano and a lounge singer -- once ubiquitous -- these are examples of something indiginous to the cultural life. Let's hope there's something of a resurgence of this sort of popular enjoyment of pianos.

Judging from the comments of "Piano World" above, the picture has some hope to it, and is not as gloomy as I had feared.


the Glyptodont
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
I'll read these more thoroughly later.

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Cambodia
by PhilipInChina - 01/21/22 12:03 AM
Hey y'all, here's my best solo recording
by An Old Square - 01/20/22 09:44 PM
PSR-E473
by waljbt74 - 01/20/22 09:26 PM
Info on pre 1990s Weinbach? (Petrof)
by monsieur souvlaki - 01/20/22 03:28 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!

Free Piano Lovers Newsletter is out now!
Piano News 2021 - 2022!
---------------------
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics211,271
Posts3,162,699
Members104,104
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5