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Can someone explain what is a grey market piano and why are they so bad? Do I need to be concerned if I'm buying one? How do I know if it is one? What are the risks? etc. etc...

Many thanks,

A grey market item is one bought outside of the normal distribution for the country where it is bought. Mostly in pianos, it refers to Yamaha, which does not guarantee or agree to furnish parts for pianos that fall into that category. Yamaha has a website where you can enter the serial number and find out whether it was made for your market or not. Yamaha website.

That website is only good for identifying serial numbers destined for the US market. I live in Canada. Therefore it is not applicable to Canadian market destined Yamahas.

Can someone direct me to a site that WILL identify serial numbers for the CANADIAN market?

I wouldn't be too concerned about whether a specific piano is grey market or not. The most important thing is that you get a technician to check the piano out and ensure its condition. I have a grey Yamaha U3 and it hasn't given me any trouble at all, aside from the using maintenance requirements. BDB is correct in saying that Yamaha doesn't officially supply parts for pianos sold outside their intended sale, but in reality it's not an issue. Most technicians know how to get their hands on parts anyway. And You are unlikely to ever need parts for a Yamaha anyway. Mine was built in 1965 and it's as solid as a rock.

Go to the website for Yamaha Music Canada Ltd. like in the US, they will only service pianos purchased from authorized dealers, which can be looked up there.

Really only an issue if you want Yamaha to conduct the service. Independent techs can get their hands on any parts if they need to.

I agree that Yamaha's official policy on grey market Yamaha pianos, "they do not support parts and service" for grey market pianos is a sales strategy, a gimmick and a ploy to scare away potential grey market Yamaha piano buyers. And, I agree that most professional piano technicians can get the Yamaha parts they need any time the need or want them. And, I agree that Yamaha pianos rarely every need replacement parts.

This is just another song and dance scheme that you run into when shopping around for a pre-owned piano, Yamaha or other.

Yamaha's acoustic pianos are built well enough, and have such a good reputation, they are basically in competition with their own selves, as far as grey market pianos are concerned. At least IMHO.

Rick

We saved a boatload with a gray market piano from 1971..it sounds great.

Is this about the GC-1 from 2005? If so, the warranty issue is irrelevant as the Yamaha Canada warranty period is 10 years. From date of original purchase.

Apparently, you have played this piano and like the touch and tone. Get an independent tech to inspect it. If it checks out, try to negotiate the price down.

As others have stated, techs can readily source Yam parts if needed and these pianos are so common that any good tech can service them

They're not at all bad, and you don't need to worry about the greyness. In Japan, people who are financially well off tend to upgrade to newer pianos when their current ones aren't particularly old. So, there's a large stream of very fine domestic market pianos coming from Japan and getting exported.

Particularly if you have a similar climate to Japan -- moderate but humid -- a grey can be just the ticket.

The most important thing is to have your technician inspect it before you part with any cash.

So sorry to jump on your post, John. I totally respect your knowledge, but here is where the misinformation lies. It is not about what climate you live in it is how we as Americans heat and cool our homes. Yamaha takes a few extra steps for the USA because we heat and cool our homes more than many other people in many other countries do. This puts additional stress on wooden components. If the pianos are not prepared for this, they can have issues.

Not every grey market Yamaha has issues, in fact the majority do not. But if you hang around this industry you will have seen issues that should not have happened. It bears having the piano examined, with a close eye given to all wooden components and their fit to each other.

Good Luck,

Based on that then one would be made to believe that Yamaha manufactures lesser quality pianos for other markets besides the US.

Do European pianos in the US have such issues from how Americans heat and cool their homes? Or do they also manufacture models differently for certain parts of the world?

Just for the fun of it: I bought my first Yamaha U1 directly from the factory and had it shipped to Norway. Very humid climate where we kept the house warm and dry during the winter. No problem. I took the piano with me to California, and kept it for 9 months in Brentwood, LA. Somewhat humid, and forced air heat during the winter. No problem. I then moved to dry Encino, heated house during the winter, air condition during the summer. No problem. I ended up selling it after 15 years for a little more than I paid for it.

It depends where you live [very dry vs more moderate humidity areas] and what the specific "ratings" of the piano were when originally bought by the importer.

Ratings by original sellers in Japan are quite variable, the price goes down when the ratings are more in the B-C range. So, many importers buy the cheaper options.

Unfortunately original ratings are not revealed to retail customers and many people choose their pianos simply by "looks" and "price"

Seen good and bad plus a few total failures. [soundboard, pinblock..]

Have torque test done by reliable technician, this can protect you.
[to some extent]

Good luck

Norbert

As Norbert mentioned there are significant differences in the grade of grey market pianos. I have not seen the retail prices of these pianos on the floor reflecting that. And I have rarely seen a customer who bought one that had been properly educated as to what they are actually getting.

Some (not all) of these pianos are in really bad shape. I have personally inspected several that were sold as refurbished when no apparent work was done. The grey market pianos that are starting to change hands again also present problems in that now the seller who was not clear on the real age or condition is selling a 40 year old piano as nearly new or lightly used with a much newer age attached.

Polyester finishes can look suprisingly fresh if they are polished, so in many cases it is really easy to misrepresent the age. Check serial numbers, make sure you have a good tech do a complete inspection and get the service history or the name of the former tech.

Also don't expect a piano that is 35 to 40 years old to last another 30 years. When buying a piano of that age it is nearing the end of its useful life if it has not had significant work with new strings, hammers and dampers. Pay accordingly.

I've had mine for 2 years (1971 G2) and I've had no problems with it. It sounds great and people think it's new. If my son plays for another 10 years and the piano falls apart, then we'll buy him a new one/or another used one. It just doesn't make sense to buy new for a 10 year old boy when no one else plays as they depreciate so rapidly in the first few years.

Dandrew:

As you are seeing, there is a difference of opinion about these grey market pianos. The most important piece of advice you have received so far is to have the instrument thoroughly checked out by a tech. BUT, not just a tooner tech, but one who is skilled beyond tuning and who is detail oriented.

If you are buying from a dealer who handles these regularly, make sure he/she will stand behind it and replace it if it comes to that. Read any warranty information VERY carefully.
If it is a private sale, you're on your own.

Install and maintain a complete humidity control system (this is true for any piano). If a grand, buy a complete cover for it and use it when the piano is not in use.

I have seen very good ones, mediocre ones, and bad ones...and not strictly Yamaha. Other makes get shipped over too and suffer from same potential issues as mentioned above.

Pwg

There are significant disadvantages with regard to grey-market pianos:

1) They are dis-proportionally priced> The average 30 year old, grey-market piano, it is sold for between 40% to 65% of what a new similar piano cost. This is at all levels wholesale or retail.

2) Although the majority of these pianos play well and hold in tune, also the majority have compromises; such as worn key felt bushings, worn action bushings, often the nylon/silk thread holding the hammer butt-spring comes off.

3) Japanese manufactures are perhaps the most proactive regarding product development. This is another aspect where the grey market buyer is short-changed.

4) The tone of an older instrument even if it is in good condition typically has some compromises due to older bass strings and sound-boards with less spring.

5) I don't see anything wrong in buying a grey market piano if the price was $1,500 but it is not. I think the new Yamahas made in China will serve better the purpose for that buyer who wants a Yamaha piano at a lower price. Made in Japan it doesn't mean much when comparing a 30 year old Yamaha to a new Yamaha.

All good, valid points; and, good advice...

Thing is, the grey-market piano debate has been going on a long time, and still going strong. I guess you either love em' or you hate em', depending on whether or not you sell them or compete against them in your market area.

If they were that bad, they would have fizzled out a long time ago... but there still seems to be a demand for them.

Best advice in this thread so far, at least in my view? Have the piano inspected by a competent piano technician.

All the best,

Rick

Almost all of the problems and/or risks listed in this thread are general to used pianos and not so specific to grey market pianos.

There are frequently sellers of used pianos that look good but are trashed inside. This is not specific to grey market. How many old pianos with romantic American or European brands have been refinished and restrung but sold as "fully rebuilt". Buyer beware, have used pianos inspected, trust your instincts if the person or company you are working with give you hesitation. Don't be blinded by a story or "deal".

Even a good used piano will have varying degrees of wear. This is common sense. Worn bushings or old silk cords is not a grey issue, it's a used piano issue. Any non-grey pianos from that era used the same silk cord. Again, if the seller is hiding behind good cosmetics and a story, that can become the issue. The day after the first new piano was sold, the used market was born, and the market has always had good and bad actors.

Used Yamaha & Kawai grands and studio upright pianos are disproportionately priced, and the grey market was created by natural market forces to feed that need, not by some pseudo-illegal activity. This is due to the successful branding of Yamaha & Kawai, but also by the obvious fact that in a mature market like US, Canada, much of Europe, the used piano market is bigger and stronger than the new piano market. This skews the depreciation curve. It also creates opportunities for other high-value competing brands.

We frequently have both. I've never been able to sell a non-grey used piano of identical age/condition for more than a grey piano of the same brand. While I'm sure a few customers did not purchase a grey market piano for fear, uncertainty or doubt about it's status, I've never sold or marketed them differently. In my experience, the filtering process is what matters most. After that, the work to get them ready is either cost effective or not.

It may sound like I'm defending grey market pianos. I'm not. There are stereotypes for grey market pianos and there are tendencies to look for in older Japanese pianos...the two overlap.

It's easy to understand that the sale of a good used piano takes away from the sales of new pianos. Certainly some brands get more exploited than others on the used market when poor condition instruments trade on that good reputation. Pianos aren't bought or sold logically even when they are purchased rationally. Consumers can avoid most traps with just a little due diligence. The grey market is just one segment of the Used market that hosts many more traps than the market for New pianos.