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Synchronicity strikes. 😃

I was watching Valentin Lisitsa tonight, observing her method of expression, when I ran across this video. At about 3:40 she explains the circular movement of music from the imagination through the body, into the piano and then back again. Her gestures that she uses to express herself are amazing!

Cheers!

I do not watch her in order to copy, since her gestures are unique to herself, but rather to just observe.
[video:youtube]TVG7A0ID9vY[/video]

The one thing I've noticed is that she does these little bounces up off the bench. I haven't seen anyone else do that.

Hi,

Yes, it is very interesting to note how every artist emotes their creative spirit with their own unique gestures.

Today I watched this video where the instructor was talking about wrist movement. Immediately I recognized the infinity sign (∞) made by the gesture of the wrist. It is exactly the same motion that is fundamental to Tai Chi and to Latin dancing (the Cuban Motion). The infinity spiral allows for smooth, continuous motion. Here is the video:

[video:youtube]GR-AZOKVfdE[/video]

I have been looking at wrist motion a lot myself, although I probably will never use the word gesture myself. Okay, I will admit it, the word triggers me, but I know what is meant and implied, and I am getting over it.

But I found working on a new piece for this week, that my thumb was getting sore right away. Now, a much younger Zilthy would have said "Well, let's do some exercises, and build up strength for this" while an older and hopefully wiser Zilthy goes "I must be doing this incorrectly, let's step back and take a look"

It's a fairly simple waltz bass line: C G G | C G G | D G G | D G G | E G G | E G G | like that, and legato, except for the G to G which is portamento.

Upon inspection, I find that I stiffen up in the G to G and I am just using my thumb, and wrist tenses up there. So even though I am getting to the point of being relaxed and flowing playing pure legato or pure portamento, mixing them is a new trick to teach these muscles.

Now, my teach did show me the proper movements for this figure, but that's during a lesson once a week, and in the future I will ask to spend more time on that particular item, especially when it comes to some new combination.

But, it is so great being able to look up a video there, and she does a really good job explaining and demonstrating these things.

The thing that has niggled at me about this is that you seem to be responding to what I wrote, but I'm not so sure. Starting with "different paths". I wrote of the need for technique, for getting different motions than what I had formed during my self-teaching. Well, what do you think Ilinka's hand gestures are about? Or the video you linked to recently that you said summarizes what she teaches. Are you simply going by "feeling" - are you not also paying careful attention to what she says about movement? How is that so different?

If it's a response to me, I did not write about one person teaching you, I don't think. I did write about feedback. If nobody gives you feedback, then you can't know for sure that you are doing what you think you are doing, and cannot catch things that you cannot catch. That's all.

Hi Zilthy: Thanks for sharing with me your approach to addressing tension while playing piano. I do similar things when I notice tension, for example in my shoulders. I believe learning piano is as much about learning about ourselves as it is about learning the piano.

Hi keysring: Thank you for your comment. What I enjoy most about Illinca's technique approach is that it is entirely holistic and brings together the imagination with the actual movements that are employed to create sound. Similar to the manner that Valentina Lisista describes in the video.

As for feedback, as a teacher, I am very aware of the benefits of feedback and when appropriate I'll certainly seek some out. Of course, everyone who provides feedback has their own point of view, so there is a limit to the amount of feedback that one can consume, so feedback itself can become counterproductive unless used judiciously.

We are both teachers. That is, I began as a trained teacher who taught in public school at the grades 2 - 4 levels with a specialization in second language learning and postgraduate training in learning disabilities, which often is in an exercise in aligning oneself in "alternate thinking styles". Language learning itself has some non-intellectual components, when you try to get students to be able to express themselves in flow of thought, teach without using their native language as a crutch, and especially, getting a natural pronunciation. I got out of the system and pursued a second profession, but continued to teach one-on-one on occasion. Often I helped students who had problems in a subject area, finding there was something at the core somewhere and if you got at that, everything else started to flow. (I'm trying for a bit of a meeting of the minds here.) ... erm, I should complete that thought. With a few of those students, their real problem was some kind of misteaching in the past, some wrong feedback about themselves which then paralyzed them in their work. The input of an excellent teacher is wonderful. The input by teachers can be harmful and crippling. I think that puts us pretty well on the same page.

Going back to this:

Yes to this. I am only thinking of good teachers (how envision it) and these are a rare breed. "Point of view" immediately makes me think of people who have shoulds and oughts, and maybe interpretations. I am thinking more of what this good teacher I'm envisioning can hear or see that you can't yet hear or see. For example, as an untrained singer I tended to have lovely flowing lines to my music, but no pulse underneath. I was fine with it. Indeed, the flowing lines have been seen as a strength in my playing. But a musician who had taken up the piano first commented "I can't follow your pulse and it bothers me." My teacher heard the lack of pulse, and then worked with me until I could get both pulse and flow. THEN I could hear a difference - the same piece had a much different quality, sounded so much better. ..... Or there is a physical thing you do that you don't notice while your notes are also bumpy sounding which you don't notice, and an astute observer notices, sees the connection. We can only see what we can see, and hear what we can hear, and so we miss what we cannot yet hear or see. Does this makes sense?

In the danger zone of observations: For example, a teacher who believes every student's hands must move in a particular way; every student must do this and that; because there is a rule that says this is the way it goes - or there is a theory that says this is the way it is done because theoretically it works. This teacher gets a student who produces good sound, has comfort in playing, and happens to play physically in a manner that might be wonderful in another "school of thought", and then starts "correcting" this. That is our "should and ought" teacher.

I played many years without a teacher, and never had a teacher in my life until I was almost 50 years. The one thing I know is that as we play we grow, and we will hear, see, and experience things we cannot yet see and hear - but if you never get feedback, your only point of reference is yourself - it can create a loop. If at some point you could get someone trustworthy to watch and hear you play, it would be beneficial, in order to see whether you're doing what you think you are doing. I am not that weak in this, and I've been surprised at the holes I had in this regard.

(I write a lot when I'm hunting for my own thoughts. Sorry for the length. :()

Hi keystring,

Thank you for sharing with me your perspective and history. I find your insights very insightful and always appreciated.

Sounds like you have found a piano teaching program that fits your needs and style. I've watched some of Illinca's videos you posted and she is impressive and provides very specific and detailed instruction.

I'm going to chime in here along with others about the pitfalls of teaching yourself in a vacuum without the aid of a really good teacher to give you feedback. Even taking lessons once a month or less is way better than not taking any lessons.

The reason I feel strongly about the benefits of feedback from a qualified teacher is because when I got back into piano as an adult I thought I sounded just great. Then I found a teacher. My teacher showed me how my playing had some serious issues, rhythm being one of them.

I listen on SoundCloud to some of my recordings from 3,,4, 5 years ago and some of them make me cringe. Maybe I should delete them. But, there is a flip side and that is I've improved since then - but it wouldn't have happened without teachers.

I second the motion to have another set of eyes and ears watch one's playing.

When playing the piano, one's mind is very very busy with all the things necessary to play. To think that you can see and hear the proper way for all those things while playing, and notice errors, is self-deception. Especially true for beginners who likely do not even know what to look out for.

Right now I have several students who were formerly "self-taught" who now take lessons. These are avid students who are very focused upon learning how to play.

Each one has significant errors in their playing...poor hand or body posture, inability to keep time, cannot count while playing a very simple piece, just to name a few.

None of those students were aware of these issues, or, just dimly aware, and none had the wherewithal to properly fix them.

Which is why advanced players continue to take lessons, even those at the professional level who have had years of top-shelf lessons, and/or go to teachers for checkup feedback...for example, that is what "master classes" are all about...those typically are not for beginners, but rather are for advanced players to fix and/or improve their playing, or simply to have an experienced person watch and hear who is not limited by being in the player's "bubble".

Another thing to do is to record yourself and play it back. You'll notice a lot that you were too busy to notice while you were playing.

Let's not forget some of us are not considering playing for others. Richrf has said somewhere that he's retired, so he is not planning to become Horrowitz. It looks to me like he is enjoying exploring the whole thing by himself, the learning of the piano. That is, not just playing the piano, but learning how to play it.

I think this is a very nice way to describe my situation Albunea. I am playing for myself and my wife (and my neighbors who I try not to disturb 😃), and there is a joy in the exploration and discovery.

While I had a teacher early in my Tattoo Chi studies, most of what I've learned is via self-discovery via many different but related paths (e.g. Chinese medicine and Yoga).

For an understanding of skills such as rhythm, I dance to various cultural music such as Salsa, Samba, Swing, Bachata, etc. As with piano, it is the sound in my mind that is creating expression through my body. (I never understood teaching dance steps without music). Even drawing has its own rhythm that is expressing the image in the mind on paper.

It's fun learning new things on one's own, and thank you for expressing it so well.

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for sharing your experiences and expressing your thoughts concerning the value of teachers for feedback during the learning process, as well as other possible resources such as self-recording. All of the insights are always greatly appreciated.

I'm not that different.


Well, we are different at something. Videos tire me very much; Reading relaxes me! I've been enjoying reading about this mission of ours.

I also read a lot Albunea on practically every subject you can imagine. Videos are my preferred resource for the arts since I feel I have to hear and observe it. It's great that I can study videos on YouTube and elsewhere, a resource that really wasn't available a decade ago. 😃

You might enjoy reading Abby Whiteside's book/s on the piano.


From premise of her first book:

For the purposes of this introductory chapter, let me reduce the business of playing the piano to its simplest terms. We begin, let us say, with a person who has feeling for music, who loves its sounds and wishes to reproduce them. The beauty of music being in the ear, the problem is this: how to transfer what is a bodiless aural image into the ultimate contact of fingers against a keyboard of black and white keys. The answer is that this transfer must somehow be all of a piece, it must be centrally controlled by the aural image, it must be cohesive. It is the body as a whole which transfers the idea of music into the actual production of music. An exciting rhythm, a unifying, all-encompassing rhythm is the only possible means by which the entire playing mechanism (which consists of the muscles of the arm, the bony structure of the hand, and the fingers) can be brought into full play. A basic rhythm is the only possible over-all coordinator, for it is not merely the instigator of beautiful musical production, but it is the sole factor that can successfully translate the image in the ear and the emotion which must be at the bottom of all beautiful music into a function of the whole body.

Hi anamnesis,

Thank you for this wonderful quote. I found this in a paper about Abby Whiteside that I pulled from the Web:

"According to Whiteside, a more natural coordination occurs when the pianist responds to a rhythm. By rhythm, Whiteside does not mean a metronomic pulse or a relentless counting which can produce note-wise/vertical playing. This rhythm, or "rhythm of form" , corresponds to a large gesture initiated by the torso and upper arms to the hands. Thus the coordination occurs naturally from the center to the periphery.

Only a basic rhythm can coordinate the body as a whole. The performer feels the rhythm and listens to the tones. Feeling rhythm is one half of a beautiful performance, the other half is the aural image of the music."

I will definitely do more reading about her ideas. What is most beautiful is that they are applicable to all arts!

A potential risk is that you could spend a lot of time on these concepts, without learning the fundamental elements that are essential to your development right now.

Even though it may teach patience, the internet has an infinite amount of patience and time. Whereas your time is more precious and limited.

The instruction all seems to be well crafted and by professional accredited musicians. I've no doubt there is a place a for it in your development and agree with finding a method you can connect with. Investing wholeheartedly in a single method this early though, well, presents this risk.

I had a feeling that you might enjoy reading her ideas as a lot of it tracks with your current train of thought/exploration.

If you plan to read her book/s (it's two published in one volume: Indispensables of Piano Playing/Mastering the Chopin Etudes and Other Essays), I'd recommend the kindle version. Reading it on the computer and being able to "search" for certain terms and phrases makes it much more comprehensible.

And I certainly agree that a lot of what she writes about can be applied to other arts, with those involved with movement in time being the more obvious. She writes about a lot of things that talented musicians take for granted (or even explicitly realize) and have difficulty communicating.