Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Help for my 1938 7' Baldwin, please?

Good evening, Ladies and Gentlemen:
I'm trying to find the right words to say to my piano technician.
My beautiful 1938 SF10 Baldwin was completely rebuilt (I saw it in pieces, so I know it really was) before I bought it eight years ago. It played beautifully then, but the playability has deteriorated.
I kept breaking jacks at the glue joint, so my technician took the whole action out, took it to his shop, and replaced all of the jacks with the one-piece type from a newer (but smaller) Baldwin. Piano has never been the same since – and I don't know why.
The keys have a lot of slop in them, and I never know exactly when (or if) a soft note is going to sound.
I play a new 5'8" (Chinese) Hallett & Davis at my church, and it is very tight and responsive.
Why can't I get my Baldwin to feel as good and be as responsive when I play it?
What do I need?
And what are the "piano technician" words I can use to get my point across?
I appreciate all your input and hope one of you "piano geniuses" out there can help me out.
Thanks!

I not sure you need new words to describe your problem, you might need a second technicians evaluation/diagnosis.

Action parts are not one-size-fits-all, not necessarily even from within the same company. But right size or not, it sounds like it wasn't properly adjusted/regulated after the new jacks were installed.

You say it's never been the same since. What did your tech have to say about it? Is it the same person who rebuilt the piano before you bought it?

Yes, it's the same tech who rebuilt the piano. Perhaps I just need to be a little more insistent. Thanks!

Jackie,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by: "the keys have a lot of slop in them"? Do you mean side to side slop, front to back slop, up and down slop? If you can try to be more specific here we might be able to help you.

Now, the reason jacks break is because they are being subjected to an expansive compression force. This is usually because there is too much key travel RELATIVE to how much hammer travel exists. We techs call this "aftertouch" (that degree of movement just past the little 'bump' or 'hump' you feel in the bottom of the key just before it hits bottom). Too much of this will break a two-piece jack.

Let us know more about what you are feeling.

Pwg

What area of Florida are you in? I may know someone in your area who can evaluate the work for you.

Thanks for your responses, Peter and Bob.

Bob, I live in Gainesville. My tech tunes solely by ear (single tuning fork, no machines), and his tunings have a liveliness (brilliance, maybe?) that I really like, so I have stuck with him.

Peter, the slop is side to side (a little) and up and down (more). None front-to-back. In other words, I don't know exactly when the note will sound. The aftertouch feels about right to me, rough-guessing 1/8 inch (since I'm not at home to go measure it). You might have a point, though, about the aftertouch not being even up and down the keyboard. The jacks that have broken (probably 10 before he replaced the whole set) were all over the place, some high, some low, and always one at a time. I think I should be able to feel what you're describing about the expansive compression force because the aftertouch should be uneven or unequal, right? I just figured they were breaking because the glue was nearing 100 years old.

Recommendations and suggestions welcome, please. And thanks again for responding!

Jackie,

My suspicion is that the replacement parts are not of the same dimension as the originals. Of course there is no way for me to confirm that (being roughly 1000 miles away), but it is a fact that even the slightest dimensional change in parts (in an otherwise well-designed action) is liable to wreak havoc with the regulation.

Great care and understanding has to go into any parts change.

However, the fact that they were breaking before this indicates less than ideal regulation (almost exclusively) in the afterthought dept. Too much aftertouch jams the jack against the whippen window and "SNAP!"

Now...perhaps there was ALREADY a parts or dimensional change in the course of the rebuild that exacerbated this problem and was not foreseen. It could be that the hammers were bored at a different dimension than original, which may have come about due to a need to lower the plate to achieve downbearing, or the height of the stack may have been altered...who knows?

The point is that under normal operation, properly regulated, the jacks are under LITTLE stress and would never break like that. Something was not right BEFORE the jacks were replaced. NOW something else is not right. Additionally, these days it is a relatively easy process to strengthen those two piece jacks (unless they were in really really bad shape).

Your full description seems to point in the direction of too much space between the top of the jack and the knuckle (or roller, depending on your training background), which can create a whole bunch of other problems. Also, excessive side play in the keys indicates key bushing issues (either wear or excessive easing). To check front to back play, grasp one key firmly by the sides and try to push it physically away from you and then toward you. ANY movement whatsoever here (called chucking) will contribute to a "old and tired" feel (especially with loose key bushings).

If you contact me privately I may be able assist you with a name or two, or perhaps Bob in Orlando may be able to.

Pwg

Bruce Fanzlaw in Ocala does high end rebuilding and is owner of Forte Piano. He is an option if you want a second opinion for your action issues. Google him if interested. Jack tenders will break at the glue joint when the top of the jack hits the repetition lever window. Common cause is too much key dip, or worn hammers/knuckles. I've a Steinway B at the university that had that issue till I replaced the hammers and shanks and got a good regulation on it. Jacks come in different sizes as does the angle of the tender to the jack stem so the replacement jacks might not be the same as the originals. Inability to play softly indicates a let-off issue - let-off is too far from the strings - and an ill fitting jack could cause that.

Hi Jackie,

I think the words you've used to describe the problem are certainly adequate for your tech to understand the issue and do the appropriate investigating. Any reputable tech who has put that amount of work into your piano would want to know if it isn't playing as well as it used to. And I'm sure he'd want a shot at a addressing it before you call on someone else.

As Peter said, from our distance all we can do here is speculate. The best advice is to communicate directly and openly with the tech and see how he responds. If he can't address it to your satisfaction, there are always other techs out there.

Thanks, Brock. I believe you're absolutely right – my original technician would want a shot at addressing it before I bring in someone else. I'll call him first.

You may want to use the services of another technician. It is important that the distances in the action between action centers meet certain specs or spreads. The angles on jacks is of particular importance and swapping out jacks from a newer and smaller piano is not the right fix. It could be done with an exact duplicate . To keep the original parts in the piano I would have treated all the jack joints with CA glue unless there was nothing to glue. Its too late for you now but you may need to have a good action rebuilder put new whippens in. On the other hand I would have another tech evaluate the regulation - maybe it can be improved
The key bushing sound like they are worn at the front key pins and there is a simple test for sideplay . Keep in mind there are seasonal changes in the keys wo they could be more loose in the winter.

You may want to use the services of another technician. It is important that the distances in the action between action centers meet certain specs or spreads. The angles on jacks is of particular importance and swapping out jacks from a newer and smaller piano is not the right fix. It could be done with an exact duplicate . To keep the original parts in the piano I would have treated all the jack joints with CA glue unless there was nothing to glue. Its too late for you now but you may need to have a good action rebuilder put new whippens in. On the other hand I would have another tech evaluate the regulation - maybe it can be improved
The key bushing sound like they are worn at the front key pins and there is a simple test for sideplay . Keep in mind there are seasonal changes in the keys wo they could be more loose in the winter.

A question on this piano, Jackie describes it as an SF10 from 1938. Of course, the model SF10 was not introduced until 1969, so hers is probabably a model F with an SF scale. Am I correct in making this observation?

There have been some prior threads about the Baldwin scale/model differences. Unfortunately, the new PW search function does not work f

The very best tuners are often not the best rebuilders and vice-versa. Touch design is a science that does not lend itself well to shooting in the dark, and replacing parts without understanding the consequences. If your tech was not able to get it right the first and second time, there is a very strong likelihood that the third time will not work out as well.

If the rebuild can't compete with a cheap Chinese grand...well...that pretty much speaks for itself.