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Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: bennevis] #2621343
03/08/17 04:40 AM
03/08/17 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by HJKMusic

I've never liked board games as they don't allow me to express myself. These games get too boring too fast for me..

For chess - and even more, Go - you have a myriad of choices, many of them 'correct'. The better a player you are, the more deeply you can look into variations and choose the strategy - the plan of action - that suits your playing style. By studying master games, you soon discern the playing styles of the GMs. The same as master pianists have their own individual playing styles, their own sound world.

Just like a beginner at piano, trying to play the right notes in the right order at the right time, if you're a beginner at chess, you're just trying not to make an obvious blunder that leads to instant loss of material or checkmate (assuming your opponent is good enough to capitalize on your blunder). You can't express yourself, or have your own playing style, until you've gone way beyond that stage. The same on piano, or any musical instrument.


I loved how you explained that! I must say that I understand what you mean, but when playing I just miss creativity and elements of surprise. To each his own I guess.

There is however one real-life game I do like: D&D . This is a story based game and there is lots of room for improvisation and creativity.


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Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: pianoloverus] #2621382
03/08/17 07:22 AM
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I am not so much convinced that it is a "math" connection as much as it is an ability to recognize, remember and call to mind "patterns" and sequences.
i.e. an ability that can help with music, math and chess.

I don't think there is anything unusual about it, other than the artificial belief that there are math/science people who are in some way separate ("different") from music/arts people.

Oh sure, octaves are times two, fifths, the blessed twelfth root of 2.
Whole, half, quarter, eighth, sixteenth notes, etc.
THAT is simple arithmetic, not "MATHEMATICS" laugh

Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: pianoloverus] #2621483
03/08/17 11:50 AM
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Arithmetic is Arithmetic.

Algebra is Algebra.

Trig is Trig. (groan)

And Math is Calculus!


WhoDwaldi
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: WhoDwaldi] #2621553
03/08/17 03:15 PM
03/08/17 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
Arithmetic is Arithmetic.

Algebra is Algebra.

Trig is Trig. (groan)

And Math is Calculus!

Actually, Calculus is Calculus -

Geometry is Geometry -

and all of the above is MATH !! grin


Last edited by Carey; 03/08/17 03:18 PM.

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Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: Carey] #2621558
03/08/17 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
Arithmetic is Arithmetic.

Algebra is Algebra.

Trig is Trig. (groan)

And Math is Calculus!

Actually, Calculus is Calculus -

Geometry is Geometry -

and all of the above is MATH !! grin



Some say "maths." laugh

Ben Orlin's Blog


WhoDwaldi
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: WhoDwaldi] #2621593
03/08/17 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
Some say "maths." laugh

Ben Orlin's Blog

I always say "maths" too. PW was the first time I encountered 'math', but then PW is the first (and only) American forum I participate in........

So, in PW, I try to Americanise (or should that be Americanize?) my spellings, so that no-one here would think me illiterate. So, I 'practice' the piano, not practise, as others do in good ol' Blighty.

Off with the s, up with the zzzzz! wink


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: bennevis] #2621594
03/08/17 05:07 PM
03/08/17 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
Some say "maths." laugh

Ben Orlin's Blog

I always say "maths" too. PW was the first time I encountered 'math', but then PW is the first (and only) American forum I participate in........

So, in PW, I try to Americanise (or should that be Americanize?) my spellings, so that no-one here would think me illiterate. So, I 'practice' the piano, not practise, as others do in good ol' Blighty.

Off with the s, up with the zzzzz! wink


Don't belaboUr the point. :P


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Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: pianoloverus] #2621595
03/08/17 05:10 PM
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And there's the whole (well, 64th) hemidemisemiquaver thing.


WhoDwaldi
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: WhoDwaldi] #2621602
03/08/17 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
And there's the whole (well, 64th) hemidemisemiquaver thing.

Currently, there are two theories about why the Brits use such a long word.

Theory No.1: By the time you learn to pronounce it properly (with a stiff upper lip), you'll be able to play it.

Theory No.2: the Brits are hopeless at math (because they call it maths), therefore they can't understand fractions. No Brit can divide one by sixty-four. So, they invent a long name instead, based on some dead language (Latin, if I'm not mistaken). The Brits are fond of dead languages. Latin is still taught in public (= "private" in USA) schools here.

Theory No.3 (I did say that Brits can't count): Brits like long flowery tongue-twisting words. Just watch Downton Abbey......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: pianoloverus] #2621617
03/08/17 06:12 PM
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I suppose if one's from

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch,

a town in Wales, "hemidemisemiquaver" is not such a mouthful!


WhoDwaldi
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: WhoDwaldi] #2621660
03/08/17 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
I suppose if one's from

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch,

a town in Wales, "hemidemisemiquaver" is not such a mouthful!

I heard from a Welshman (speaking with such a strong accent that he could well be speaking Welsh, in which case I might have misinterpreted, as I've never spoken Welsh, not even in my worst nightmare - I can't even pronounce Tryfan, the prettiest mountain in Wales, despite having climbed it over 100 times) that originally the name of that town was much shorter. But to get it into The Guinness Book of Records, it was decided to lengthen it such that it's second longest in the world.

And to attract visitors from across the pond wink .

BTW, there's a lovely little town in Norway called H*ll. Go take a trip to the land of Grieg, and visit Troldhaugen, then go to H*ll, and return alive and well, with a photo of said H*ll thumb. Norwegians don't need so many letters to attract tourists......

* PW censored cry (* = e)


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: pianoloverus] #2621672
03/08/17 08:45 PM
03/08/17 08:45 PM
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Music, math, and chess are the three areas that have a romanticized narrative about child prodigies. There no doubt are also children who can read, build, cook, interpret MRI results, or identify bird calls at an adult level of skill while still very young, but there isn't the same kind of romanticized narrative of the child prodigy in other fields.


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Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: Carey] #2621724
03/09/17 01:09 AM
03/09/17 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
Arithmetic is Arithmetic.

Algebra is Algebra.

Trig is Trig. (groan)

And Math is Calculus!

Actually, Calculus is Calculus -

Geometry is Geometry -

and all of the above is MATH !! grin


Thank you Carey. Calculus snobs are to be found all over. Yet anyone with half a brain (preferably the right half) can differentiate or integrate functions with a little bit of instruction. Integration is really fun. When I was 15 we learned how to calculate the volume of a rotated exponential curve between two points on the x axis. That's intellectual excitement on a par with closing your eyes and listening to Pierrot Lunaire with a bit of Tetrahydrocannabinol running through your brain. I.e. awesome.

Mathematics is the perfect discipline.
Music is mathematics^2



SRF
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: pianoloverus] #2621843
03/09/17 09:04 AM
03/09/17 09:04 AM
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I'm with you SiFi smile

It's interesting to see the integration symbol on string instruments, like violins. Whenever I see a grand piano, I relate to the integration to calculate the length of the curve. Relations indeed.


Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: pianoloverus] #2621882
03/09/17 11:25 AM
03/09/17 11:25 AM
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If I didn't know better, I might think I was just called an half-brained elitist math snob who can go to . . . Norway. ha laugh

"Math is Calculus" is the punch line of an old joke. Goes along with the professor joke about how many lives they save weeding premeds with calculus. laugh

We haven't worked into the discussion tone rows, matrices, and retrograde inversions. laugh

Or another Tom Lehrer song:

[video:youtube]2VZbWJIndlQ[/video]


WhoDwaldi
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: pianoloverus] #2621894
03/09/17 12:13 PM
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I love math, as a matter of fact, drinking a glass of wine and trying to knock out a math proof is relaxing to me. I feel the same way about music, I love music. Chess, however, is unbelievably boring to me. Like some of you have mentioned, the relationship between these activities is probably nothing more than hyperbole.

While my experience is not sufficient to generalize, I think it at least provides a counter example to this hyperbole. I have a graduate degree in math and I think I’m a decent mathematician. The story is quite different in regards to music. I have always struggled with music. Truth be told, I’m a pretty inept musician. I’m getting better now that I’m practicing more, but I still get lost in between the notes, rhythms, ect.

Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: WhoDwaldi] #2621895
03/09/17 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
.....Tom Lehrer song....

...and he had an "Integration" song too!! grin


Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: Mark_C] #2621900
03/09/17 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
.....Tom Lehrer song....

...and he had an "Integration" song too!! grin



But, we will all go together when we go, after poisoning pigeons in the park. grin

(Harvard mathemetician Tom Lehrer was an influence for Mark Russell's political piano parody stuff after Watergate.)


WhoDwaldi
Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: pianoloverus] #2621910
03/09/17 12:56 PM
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Quote
I was recently reading about the nine types of intelligence and I quote: "mathematical and musical intelligences may share common thinking processes". Like someone above posted about chords and seeing some deeper logic in it. I also see patterns in music, always. The less patterns I can find, the harder it is for me to learn that piece.

I am not so much convinced that it is a "math" connection as much as it is an ability to recognize, remember and call to mind "patterns" and sequences.
i.e. an ability that can help with music, math and chess.


It's very plausible that a common set of abilities that benefit both music and maths (and probably chess) exists, and pattern recognition is one of them. In fact, fascination with patterns may be what draws us to these fields in the first place.

Without being boastful, I can say I'm good at pattern recognition - in my old day job I could exploit this in tasks like data visualisation and analysis; and in music, I think I'm pretty good at grasping structure and musical argument of a composition. One problem I had when I was learning the piano was that I could often get to "know" a piece in this sense way before I could actually "play" it, and get bored/frustrated as a result. This indicates to me that this is a distinct skill from actual musical talent. Beneficial, but different.


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Re: Music, math , and chess...where do you fit in? [Re: hreichgott] #2621911
03/09/17 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hreichgott
Music, math, and chess are the three areas that have a romanticized narrative about child prodigies. There no doubt are also children who can read, build, cook, interpret MRI results, or identify bird calls at an adult level of skill while still very young, but there isn't the same kind of romanticized narrative of the child prodigy in other fields.
If that's true, then it begs the question why those three areas are romanticized and not others.

Also, I don't think some of the areas you mentioned are very high-level skills, e.g. reading and identifying bird calls. Are there really 10-year-olds who can cook near the level of a professional adult chef or read MRIs as well as a licensed radiologist?

I've read(and maybe agree)that one reason math, chess, and music can produce prodigies while other areas can't is that they don't require life experience.

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