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On the Shigeru Kawai facebook page, (link below), the following comment was made by what appears to be a piano technician:

"Stephen Gallucci I've worked On Steinway's and Kawai all my life. The difference is that a Steinway will outlast a Kawai by 100 years. Kawai sound great new, they have a nice top end, and they are clean. What they don't have are depth of tone, or darker colors. They, in fact are colorless. On top of that every time I come to a 35year old Kawai, it tone is lost, and the downbearing has sagged. They have a low downbearing and it sounds good new but as soundboard sags they lose sustain. It's good in the short term. Throw away piano."

I am interested in knowing if the technicians on this forum have had the same experience with sagging crown and loss of sustain in Kawai soundboards as this comment suggests? Do you find any truth to his comments on longevity for Kawai pianos? Thanks.

https://www.facebook.com/ShigeruPianos/

If the comments include Shigeru Kawai pianos, they are dubious. Shigeru Kawai pianos have been made only since 2000 or for nearly 17 years. There are no 35 year old Shigeru Kawai pianos. The standard Kawai production may not have the longevity of a Steinway and Sons instrument, but a new Steinway and Sons piano is about 4 times the price. That is an unfair comparison.

Kind regards,

Robert.

Robert, thank you for your reply. Yes, I would imagine he is s speaking in general about Kawai, perhaps not specifically referring to the SK. I'm not interested in his subjective observations on tone color, but more specifically on his comments on low downbearing and sagging soundboard causing loss of tone and sustain.

I am interested in hearing if other piano technicians have experiened the same "design flaw" in servicing older kawais and their long term durability as opposed to any specific comparison to steinway.

I must admit that I do not know the technique Kawai uses to induce crown in their soundboards, however the term "killer octave" comes to mind when considering your comparisons and it did not originate with Kawai.

I would be willing to say that the tone of many Kawai's becomes "stale"...lacking life. Functional, but nothing to write home about, and major reconditioning work doesn't improve it dramatically. As far as loss of crown, I don't know as I haven't been measuring any lately.

Pwg

Why not go out to the piano shops and test some 10years+ Shigerus.

I just remember the story of Glenn Gould's Steinway CD 318. That was an item marked for disposal because of its diminishing qualities, that became famous in the end.

I have certainly noticed the dull character of older Kawai grands - it's like the presence knob was dialled down. Even the ones with new strings and hammers seem to have a more dull aspect to them once they are more than 15 years old. I never knew what the reason was, perhaps there is a ring of truth to this belly issue. I can't speak for Shigeru however because I've never played a Shigeru with this problem. Perhaps their belly construction avoids this issue.

Good points Robert. I didn't really like the style and tone of the guy's comments, and after all, he is posting on the Shigeru Kawai facebook Page, not a general Kawai Page. He cannot, as you point out, have more than 17 years experience of Shigeru Kawai.

A more tentative tone would have been better, I think.

None of us can speak to the longevity of Shigeru soundboard crown. And many, like me, will never have tuned one, just listened to recordings and possibly tried them in showrooms (and I have been equally impressed by the hands-on experience as by the recordings).

Time will tell. But as new pianos, the Shigeru are certainly magnificent.

Here at the University we have a 36 year old Kawai GS-30 in the practice rooms. In 2013 is was restrung, and while the plate was out I attempted to improve belly function by servicing the bridge (see PTJ August 2015 - Spurlock)and improving the impedance of the soundboard (see PTJ August 2002 "Last Resort Soundboard Repair" - Fandrich). I've set it up with Ronson Wieckert hammers, and we have no complaints at all about the vitality of the tone. This piano exhibits nice power and clarity.

Floyd,

Yes, 35-40 years is definitely the time to be requiring this kind work, especially under institutional conditions.

I now have great confidence in Del's procedure and what it can do for the impedance of the board. I do this routinely in the shop.

Interesting on the hammers...after I wrote my first post I thought to myself: "hmmm what if we put Steinway hammers on there and prepped then according to S&S protocols? I wonder what we might get?" I have heard of this being done to Yamaha and guess what...sounds like a Steinway!

To be fair though...I do not know Stephen Gallucci, or his real experience, nor if there might happen to be any subtle agenda behind his words. I am not making any accusation, but unfortunately there is always the possibility that OUR words (opinions) might be used inappropriately to further someone else's somewhat narrow viewpoint.

I believe the OP has asked a fair and honest question though. My opinion is generalized and does not cover every single Kawai I've had experience with. I have never had opportunity to treat one as Floyd has done. Maybe someday I will.

Pwg

I regularly tune a Kawai 600 from the 1960s for shows at a night club. It is the one in the television show that I have posted as an example of my tuning. It has problems, but I do not think any of them are from the soundboard. It has sounded pretty much the same since I fixed it up after I started tuning it in the 1980s. There is a 500 from a similar period which I have been tuning since the 1970s, and it is pretty much the same, conditionwise.

One of things you notice about piano technicians is that when they work on a particular brand of pianos frequently they establish preferences. This is natural human nature. If this preference then turns to trying to justify their preference by denigrating other brands of pianos, this is not very professional.

All piano tuners have worked on older Steinway pianos that have degraded into junk. Likewise Kawai or Yamaha or any other piano. Any piano can have soundboards go bad over time - I have seen Steinway pianos inside of 10 years (recently a concert grand in a university!) with failed soundboards, and I have also seen Kawai (and other) pianos inside of 10 years with failed soundboards. One difference here is that Kawai would cover it under warranty as long as it wasn't abused - Steinway was refusing in this University's case.

I have also worked on 50 year old Kawai grands that other technicians had proclaimed as junk. I am about as fluent with Kawai pianos as any technician, so I know the pianos very well and what to do with them. The last time on a model 600 from the 1960s after minor repairs, proper action service, regulation, voicing, tuning - the piano sustained beautifully, had a great expressive range, and the owner was in love with their piano!

I have also worked to similarly resuscitate Steinway pianos from the 1960s, recalling my knowledge from when I worked on them frequently years back, and also had good success - but not to the same degree as with the Kawai.

Was this because the Kawai was the better piano? Using Stephen Gallucci's line of reasoning I guess I should say that - it must have been better made. But honestly speaking, I can't spout such a universal truth like that. Perhaps a true Steinway 'specialist' would have known the magic tricks.

From another point of view: I am kind of happy to see posts like this. Many pianists have come to love the Shigeru sound and action and they are well received on the concert stage when available (we don't make many concert grands, only 10 per year). So the next thing opposing fans will do is question the longevity, or some other aspect of the instrument.

So, really, these kinds of posts are a type of complement to Shigeru Kawai. :-)

Well, I'm glad I now know in how many years I'll need to throw away my piano.
Classy...

Don,

Great point you made about Kawai, Steinway and pianos in general.

I have a Kawai No. 750 that is now 51 years old. I have owned it for about 14 years. Wonderful piano. Fantastic rich sound with amazing sustain for a piano that is all original.

I do wish I could find a No. 800 Kawai. I just know they are out there somewhere waiting for me.....

Brent

The late Earl Wild, one of the greatest piano masters there has ever been, latterly performed and recorded on a Shigeru Kawai EX10 concert grand. His last two CD releases, Earl Wild at 88 (on the 88) and Living History, display the ravishing sound of that piano (as well as Mr Wild's incomparable mastery).

I believe that Kawai uses a rib crowned sound board and notably Steinway and Sons instruments have a compression crowned board. Fazioli instruments, top tier pianos, also have the rib compressed sound boards.
The skills needed in the assembly of these two types of sound boards are probably "trade secrets" and although some technicians question the durability of the compression formed soundboard, the ravishing beauty of tone of Steinway and Sons pianos is testimony to the success of their belly work.

KawaiDon, in his extensive experience with all kinds of pianos, has encountered sound board failure even in relatively new Steinway and Sons pianos as well as other piano makes.

To single out Kawai pianos for having inherently flawed sound boards is refuted by most posts on this thread. In fact, we can infer that the type of sound board in Kawai pianos would add to their longevity rather than dimimish it.

Kind regards,
Robert.

It seems to me that if Steinway trusts Kawai to make their Boston pianos, that should say something positive right there.

Pwg

Robert, can you briefly explain the difference between a "rib crowned" sound board vs a "compression crowned" sound board and the philosophy behind each? Also, how did you come to know which technique kawai or steinway uses to create their crown as you say these are likely trade secrets?

Grandman: PW and other forums have discussed for years sound board philosophy. Simple search yields: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2588296/History_of_pressure-_vs._rib-c.html