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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2604649
01/15/17 11:24 AM
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ah yes - more differences then I remembered. I just poked a flashlight into the 605 - zero dampening and bracing inside.
From what I can see the two 5cm speakers are above the 605's fallboard that slides into the cabinet, the nearfield 5cm are below the fallboard, and those 12cm bass drivers are radiating out from underneath.

Yes - if the 7 had a similar top lid setup, it would be a better in between model than it is now.. but probably with too little to differentiate it from the 17 in the lineup.

Ah well - you get what you pay for ^^




Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2604687
01/15/17 01:17 PM
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IMHO, having *any* sound but bass coming from below the keyboard is... not smart, because all sounds but the bass are directional. A bass sound just 'is', while the higher frequencies can be easily located by the ear.

The only instrument I know that outputs sound from under the keyboard is the home organ, and even those sound better when connected through large standing speakers, or large studio monitors and a subwoofer.


Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2604689
01/15/17 01:24 PM
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yep - in the 605 though those midrange drivers also output through the slit of the slide in fallboard - same is true for the 7
basically it bounces off the keys at you ^^


Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612876
02/09/17 10:22 AM
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*update*

A nice tech support came by and examined the PHA-50 keybed and confirmed he felt the difference in touch weight while playing, but after much looking could not find a cause for it at all.. Took out some of the problem keys and examined the underlying mechanism, removed some of the grease, added some and no discernible difference resulted. He was stumped - said he had not come across this issue ever..
Unfortunately when he took out the fallboard he nicked the side of the finish as well -_-

Want to post some pics but how do I include pics from local harddrive and not http? I do not see an option to do this in the message menu?


Last edited by Goss; 02/09/17 10:23 AM.

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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612880
02/09/17 10:35 AM
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That would require that pianoworld host your images. I think the easiest thing is to upload them to imgur.com or put them in a shared Google Drive or Dropbox folder.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Gombessa] #2612883
02/09/17 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Goss

Want to post some pics but how do I include pics from local harddrive and not http? I do not see an option to do this in the message menu?



Originally Posted by Gombessa
That would require that pianoworld host your images. I think the easiest thing is to upload them to imgur.com or put them in a shared Google Drive or Dropbox folder.


Pianoworld can easily host your images for you. Actually, it's the preferred way to post images. See here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2248307.html

Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612885
02/09/17 10:54 AM
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Ah, didn't notice that before, thanks JoBert. Still seems a bit too involved to me compared to a one-click upload to Imgur!


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612891
02/09/17 11:31 AM
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[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612896
02/09/17 11:49 AM
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Honestly, that's quite odd. You'd think it would be easy to isolate the problem--take off the keys and depress the hammers and see if the weight difference is still there. Swap the key with a different one and see if the problem follows the key. Swap the hammer with a different one in the same grading zone and see if the problem follows the hammer. If the problem never travels, it's likely something with the keybed frame...


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612901
02/09/17 12:12 PM
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He did not have the kinds of tools to do this with him ; mostly electrical repair tools and parts..
And while the keys come out easily enough, the hammer actions are grouped and I think one can only swap those around once you have completely removed the entire bed.


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612904
02/09/17 12:15 PM
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Ah, well that's 1) too bad, and 2) nonetheless sounds like something a DP tech should be prepared to do...

I can understand the actions being in key groups, but are the hammers themselves really captive under the bed? They should be free-hinged, right? Oh well.

What are your next steps?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612905
02/09/17 12:24 PM
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It was an interesting view inside there though; sorry for the lack of descriptions with the pictures - editing the post just shows the image path not the image itself so shuffling back and forth is a bit of a bother.

It looks like there are several little amplifier boards distributing the sound to the various speaker units. Zero dampening material inside, not even the oftentimes deployed 'cups' over the down firing bass drivers..

The top of the 605 comes off with the row of screws near the top lid at the back ( 4 in all ) then the top slides forward a little, then there is one plug you have to pull free and the top comes off.

To be able to lift out the keys the control face was unscrewed and layed on its back behind the keybed.

Keys lift out easily but the hammer mechanisms are grouped in keys of darnit I forgot to take notes ^^ I think 8 keys. The hammers are metal and grading is per zone of 8 or so keys ( again should have taken notes )

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...HA-50_/_HP605_internals.html#Post2612888 for larger pictures.

In short - my suspicions of the cause were not correct - the rails were properly aligned, the foam on these rails were razor straight, and clearances of the keys appeared to be all in order..




Last edited by Goss; 02/09/17 12:26 PM.

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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612907
02/09/17 12:30 PM
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Next steps - the tech was going to contact Roland to ask for the tolerances of touch weight differences.. He was going to report back there was nothing within view he could do on the spot basically.

They are free hinged, but to get at them and remove them, you have to remove all the keys, then unscrew the whole assembly, then lift it out and then take apart the hammer and escapement actions..


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612938
02/09/17 03:07 PM
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Goss,

Did you try playing the HP605 with the top off?


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612947
02/09/17 03:37 PM
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We did ^^ but it doesn't improve things lol; in the pics you see two 12cm "bass" drivers ( you can see their magnets ) and the two 5cm nearfield drivers ( the ones mounted at a 45° angle ).
To take the top off you got to unplug a molex connector which unplugs the added 5cm "spatial" drivers which are mounted to the underside of the top.








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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612952
02/09/17 03:43 PM
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Its easy enough to fit some dampening material without voiding the warranty - there are no stickers breached or anything and its just 4 screws and unplugging that molex and sliding the top towards the front of the piano a little and you're in.

I think though with those other speakers not boxed in as with the LX17 it will just muddy up the sound more than benefit it if one just props up the lid without doing any other more drastic work..


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2612969
02/09/17 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Goss
without having measured the actual total down and up weights for all the keys, just eying the pha-50's build and reading some posts on previous Roland mechanisms I got two possible causes - in older pha there seems to be use of a white grease here n there - possibly some of it got someplace it should not be, or too much of it. And at the front below the keys there are two guide rails - one with a strip of foam on top, and one with foam on top and below, catching a 'hook' that extends from the bottom of the key halting its movement up - if the foam on this rail is not properly aligned, it might rub against the straight bit of this hook and hinder its progress a little - since the stiff keys also have a little less bounce to them, this seems likely to me.

[Linked Image]


I had a Yamaha P120 with keys leaning to the sides. It was a manufactural known problem that occured after months.
As a pianotuner/technician i opened the P120 and gave it a very good look. A tiny plastic part on the back of the keys caused unwanted tension to the left part of the keys,causing it to lean sideways just a tiny bit.
By removing a tiny bit of the plastic i was able to make it work again.
I bought 5+ new keys eventually when i wanted to sell it and told the buyer who couldn't really care , because i sold it for little money.

Observing the PHA-50 , i can see several aspects that could influence the feel/grading.

In my opinion, on the contrary to claims made by the brands, also plastic parts aren't 100% identical after installation in a larger action containing many parts.
That 's why some keys in my P120 leaned over and others did not.Exchanging similar keys underlined that impression....it was the plastic keys the had extremely tiny variations in shape !!!
Exchanging some plastic keys ,only the white fully plastic keys solved the problem.....(so the problem was the shape of the plastic that had deformed just a tiny bit ) In real piano's the brands Rippen, Kawai and Yamaha experimented with plastic parts in acoustic actions during the seventies, because plastic couldn't ''work''. Well they were wrong and abbandonad that whole idea....back to the wooden actions
Kawai does use some graphite parts instead of wood now, but that is not plastic.

Bottom line...i don't believe in hybrid actions that don't need any regulation ever........i believe nothing that is used so intesively as a piano action works flawlessly for decades.
They can minimise all sorts of influences, but sometimes you end up with a unit that underlines the imperfections of real world materials.

Curious what the final outcome of your PHA-50 is going to be ...

Last edited by pianistje; 02/09/17 04:22 PM.
Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613012
02/09/17 06:09 PM
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Thanks for raising my spirits Pianistje (sarcasm wink )
I fear you are right. Funnily enough Rippen actions were a topic of conversation when the tech and I got to talking about the joys of plastics XD


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613060
02/09/17 08:42 PM
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Thanks for the update Goss, and for sharing your pics.

I expect dewster would have appreciated a sharper image of the main PCB, but he has been MIA for some time now, unfortunately.

I wonder if the smaller board in front is the Bluetooth controller?

Cheers,
James
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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613114
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oh I will add some more pics - the guy was on a schedule and I did not want to keep him so I switched to 4K video - I imagine screencaps of that will yield pretty good stills


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613126
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Got a call from the nice tech - he ordered new side panel for the one he made the little dent in so that's something ^^

He is dropping by a Roland dealer with some touch weights and is going to check a few PHA-50 actions for himself to see wether or not this behaviour of heavy keys is 'normal' for the action.. This slightly worries me as a reaction to be honest.
This was after he had a talk with Roland Netherlands.


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613129
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[Linked Image]
map of all the heavier keys marked with white stickers. Some blacks included though I did not map those completely.
50% of the heavy ones do not depress at all with the weights on them while their neighbours to the left and right do - the other half depress a little ways but not as much as their neighbours.

The middle C key as an example - I used a stack of 16X € 0,10 rolled in some tape ( adds 1 gramme ) total weight of the coins is 16X 4.10gr= 65,6 grams plus the 1-2 grams of weight of the tape around them. The difference in touchweight is an additional 1 € 0,50 which is 7.8 grams.
Then further up the octave a G requires one € 0,50 and 1 €0,20 coin to get this key depressed as far as its neighbour to the left and to the right which totals a touch weight difference of 7.8 + 5.7 = 13,2 grams.
The additional touchweight needed varies across the keyboard, and from measurements I did earlier - before the middle C required two 50 cent pieces totalling 15,6 grams.

http://www.rubinghscience.org/surv/euroweights1.html

Last edited by Goss; 02/10/17 05:05 AM.

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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: pianistje] #2613145
02/10/17 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pianistje

Kawai does use some graphite parts instead of wood now, but that is not plastic.


Kawai used an ABS composite plastic before they started adding carbon fibre. And ABS can be very stable, it's not like your lego bricks fail to fit decades down the line! The key thing is manufacturing precision.

What is often referred to as Carbon fibre/graphite is still essentially plastic too and the polymer part of kawai's latest actions is still ABS from what they say. The full term tends to be along the lines of carbon fibre reinforced polymer (or CFRP).

Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613146
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Yep - injection moulding with carbon fibres is easier, more exact and cheaper than laminating carbon fibres with other resins such as polyesters or epoxy by hand or vacuum process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBhkLuXZzCc example with glass fibre for those who just love how its made =]

http://kawaius.com/technology/carbon_fiber-technology.html some details on Kawai's carbon fibre reinforced action parts

Last edited by Goss; 02/10/17 09:53 AM.

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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613529
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Maybe I'm wrong, but AFAIK, it's normal for keys to become heavier on the left, and lighter on the right. So, touch weight wouldn't be the same across the entire keyboard?


Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613536
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Read my posts again Falsch ^^ There is no smooth curve of touch weight - there are spikes and dips of 7-15grammes all across the board regardless of graded action. Middle C as example its neighbours to the left and right 65 grams touchweight. Middle C requires 7+ grams extra relative to its neighbours.

Further up the octave and beyond there are some that require 12-15 grams more than their left and right neighbours..
Further UP as in where it is supposed to get lighter =_=

Last edited by Goss; 02/11/17 01:03 PM.

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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613559
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Hope you get it all sorted Goss. Interesting about the weights you mention, that is actually leaning quite towards the heavy side in acoustic land as I am learning. I think someone here also did that for the Gf2 or Gf1 action and it came somewhere like 63 grams on middle C, again leaning towards the upper scale of recommended heaviness for static touch weight. Interesting though as a comparison I only measured middle C on my casio once, it began to give way around 55 grams, but it felt rather easier to play on the roland in terms of speed, the ones I tried in the shops anyway, less friction issues and a lighter dynamic touch no doubt compared to my Casio (I suspect).

Very nice keybed on the rolands I thought, lovely to play, assuming it all works as it should of course, sounds like you got the lemon :D, there is no way that kind of variation is acceptable I think, whatever feedback they come back with in terms of tolerance, it is well outside what is acceptable and needs to be repaired one way or the other.

My Casio has also developed some uneven keys here and there, but I live with it for now, it's pretty minor, it may be going and replaced sooner than later anyway.

On the carbon fibre age in pianos, it is coming, Kawai use it in parts of the action, there are others stretching the idea much further. For anyone interested

http://www.phoenixpianos.co.uk/phoenix-carbiano/

There are some with just the soundboard too, and from what I can tell on the basis of a recordings at least they sound darn good and promising. A downside I can see developing, the beauty of wood gives each piano its tone and unique quality, while some variations will be possible with hammers strings etc and other part of the design perhaps, they'd likely all sound very much the same otherwise, would we want that ? There again, I doubt wooden pianos will never go away for a long time yet.

Have fun smile


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Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2613693
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Hi Alex
Yes the PHA-50 is a tad on the heavy side initially - I got used to it pretty quickly though, and despite the issues I still like our Roland ^^

Wow, that was a lót of work to make.. A friend of mine is a shipbuilder - wood, resins and carbon kevlar and such - this took some people quite some time and a lót of prototyping before they got to this stage I'll bet. Was a good read in bed last night - thanks for this =]
Do find it sounds very clear - they do mention due to the lesser sound absorption of the carbon the upper registers especially sound out much more ; one of those recordings of it had me going for the volume controls hitting [-] more than a few times ^^

Their other designs are interesting too - especially the new way they mount the strings so their soundboards don't lose their crown - good stuff


Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2617611
02/24/17 09:56 AM
02/24/17 09:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,221
the Netherlands
Goss Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
Goss  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,221
the Netherlands
*update*

Well, disappointing. The tech did some tests with other PHA-50 equipped key actions, and found similar discrepancies with all of them - he tried 3 pianos. He contacted Roland, and they responded this issue cannot be fixed.. Within tolerances they said.

C4 and c8 sharing the same touch weight is within tolerance -_-


Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
Re: PHA-50 key action issue.. am I being fussy? [Re: Goss] #2617617
02/24/17 10:19 AM
02/24/17 10:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 397
UK
B
Bambers Offline
Full Member
Bambers  Offline
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B

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 397
UK
I'd imagine most acoustic pianos have a similar discrepancy unless meticulously maintained. Part of the grading felt during playing is in the inertial weight which is presumably still there since the c4 hammer is heavier than the c8 one.

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